Round found in Rifle at ULT...philosophically speaking...

[Captain Clark]

26 minutes ago, Hoss said:

Several folks on this thread and many others make the comment “change the spotters” when they miss a call.  Has anybody ever actually done that? (Change our all 3 spotters at once due to a missed call). 
Spotters  should pay  attention, call what they see. 
 

Not all 3 at the same time, but definitely replaced 2 at one time at EOT. One spotter later confided that he knew he needed to step aside but didn’t want to bother anybody! It was a warm day and their attention span had wandered about as far as some WTC posts here on the wire!

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

3 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Yeah...I do know.

 

Trust me. There was no overloading. 

 

It's becoming typical of this game...the trophy is "God"...

I feel like there is more to the story than what was posted. Answering just what was posted, I could only call the MSV, and that's if the rifle left the shooters hand. Anything else is purely a guess, no matter how educated it is. And we are always preaching you have to know it's a miss to call it a miss. If spotters missed the miss, well that's just what happens in this game. Shooting black powder, it's quite possible I have been the recipient of spotters missing a miss before. I know for a fact I have been the recipient of spotters calling my hits misses way more times than the reverse. I lose 2-4 hits every single match I shoot my 36 51's, so sometimes the spotting gods favor you and sometimes they don't.

 

Now this is just an assumption, which I feel is ok to do on the wire, but is there a "rest of the story" you want to share?

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

3 hours ago, Cypress Sun said:

f the rifle was the last gun used on the stage, went to the ULT, never took his hands off of the rifle and ejected the mystery round, would it be a call at all?

 

It's a no-call for that situation.  BUT, in SASS cowboy matches we almost never shoot rifle as last gun of stage, so don't count on EVER being able to use this as a safety net. 

Good luck, GJ

[Flying W Ramrod]

1 hour ago, Hoss said:

Several folks on this thread and many others make the comment “change the spotters” when they miss a call.  Has anybody ever actually done that? (Change our all 3 spotters at once due to a missed call). 
Spotters  should pay  attention, call what they see. But if I call a miss you can be danged sure I KNOW it was a miss. If another spotter with a different angle can point out a reasonable edger, I’ll give it to them. I NEVER change a hit call to a miss. 
 

Yes, I have. And will do it again in a heartbeat. If the Spotters aren't, in my opinion, doing the job, they get replaced.

This isn't just for not seeing a miss, it's for saying clean when the other two are showing 5 misses. For using the phrase " I didn't see anything" over and over again.

 

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

5 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

It's a no-call for that situation.  BUT, in SASS cowboy matches we almost never shoot rifle as last gun of stage, so don't count on EVER being able to use this as a safety net. 

Good luck, GJ

That must be a regional thing. Over the last couple of years, almost every shoot I go to is gun order shooter's choice. Often times the stage isn't optimal for shooting rifle last, but sometimes it is. I'd say at least 1 to 2 stages per shoot. Definitely more often than almost never.

[Painted Mohawk SASS 77785]

MSV for the rifle.....  BUT'always puzzles me if the round was in the pistol [ & not under the hammer ] it's just a miss  !!!

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

52 minutes ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

That must be a regional thing. Over the last couple of years, almost every shoot I go to is gun order shooter's choice. Often times the stage isn't optimal for shooting rifle last, but sometimes it is. I'd say at least 1 to 2 stages per shoot. Definitely more often than almost never.

Recommendation from the Shooter's Handbook that rifle not be last gun on stage.

 

Quote

If the rifle is the last firearm used (NOT recommended)

Page 16 of SHB

 

I've not seen a rifle-last stage (outside of Wild Bunch matches) in last five years at WR, EOT, Bordertown, etc., etc.

 

Good luck, GJ

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

3 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Recommendation from the Shooter's Handbook that rifle not be last gun on stage.

 

Page 16 of SHB

 

I've not seen a rifle-last stage (outside of Wild Bunch matches) in last five years at WR, EOT, Bordertown, etc., etc.

 

Good luck, GJ

When is the last time you saw SASS recommended target distances?

[Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104]

If this were me and since I use a loading strip, I would own a miss in addition to the msv irregardless of what the spotters say they saw.  It's simply the right thing to do. 

 

If this happened to someone else, I could only call what I saw, which in this case was a msv if the spotters were polled and TO counted the correct number of hits.

[Captain Bill Burt]

22 minutes ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

If this were me and since I use a loading strip, I would own a miss in addition to the msv irregardless of what the spotters say they saw.  It's simply the right thing to do. 

 

If this happened to someone else, I could only call what I saw, which in this case was a msv if the spotters were polled and TO counted the correct number of hits.

Ahh, but what if the spotters insist there was no miss, what then?

[Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104]

Just now, Captain Bill Burt said:

Ahh, but what if the spotters insist there was no miss, what then?

I'd still own it then let the TO be the tie breaker .  He/she is responsible to give the score to the scorekeeper.  

[Hoss]

I’ve  called a msv on myself. I’ve called a SDQ on myself. If I ever had to I’d call a MDQ on myself. I don’t think I would call a miss on myself  if the spotters had it clean I ain't gonna argue! If they asked me if I had a miss I would not lie, but I’ve had stages where I was sure I was clean and called for a miss, and I’ve had stages where I thought I had a miss and it was clean. I suspect at the end of your shooting career they will just about equal out!!! (Maybe a bit heavy on the “clean” side as the BOD comes into play. 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, Hoss said:

I’ve  called a msv on myself. I’ve called a SDQ on myself. If I ever had to I’d call a MDQ on myself. I don’t think I would call a miss on myself  if the spotters had it clean I ain't gonna argue! If they asked me if I had a miss I would not lie, but I’ve had stages where I was sure I was clean and called for a miss, and I’ve had stages where I thought I had a miss and it was clean. I suspect at the end of your shooting career they will just about equal out!!! (Maybe a bit heavy on the “clean” side as the BOD comes into play. 

So if you use a loading block...would you still not call a miss on yourself?

 

How is calling a MSV for the jack out round at the ULT the "Cowboy Way" but not calling a 5 Sec penalty for the unfired round that came out of a loading block/strip/whatever okay?

 

Fricken crazy...IMHO...

 

But, many of you are correct in that with the "Given" info. the officials can only assess the MSV. 

 

So the rest of the philosophical question rests in the hands of all of y'all and your belief that Cowboy Action Shooters are all about the Cowboy Way. 

 

Cheers!

Phantom

[watab kid]

great discussion , had not given that a lot of thought before - generally i got the miss for jacking a live one in the shooting and not reloading , 

[Captain Bill Burt]

7 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

So if you use a loading block...would you still not call a miss on yourself?

 

How is calling a MSV for the jack out round at the ULT the "Cowboy Way" but not calling a 5 Sec penalty for the unfired round that came out of a loading block/strip/whatever okay?

 

Fricken crazy...IMHO...

 

But, many of you are correct in that with the "Given" info. the officials can only assess the MSV. 

 

So the rest of the philosophical question rests in the hands of all of y'all and your belief that Cowboy Action Shooters are all about the Cowboy Way. 

 

Cheers!

Phantom

So what call do you think is the Cowboy way if the shooter doesn’t say anything?

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

7 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

So what call do you think is the Cowboy way if the shooter doesn’t say anything?

This will probably be the only time I respond to an inquiry from you.

 

Bringing up the "Cowboy Way" was in reference to the shooter and not anyone else on the posse...I'm sorry that wasn't obvious.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

How much of a penalty is given for philosophical misses?

 

You buy the next beer?

 

[Captain Bill Burt]

2 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

This will probably be the only time I respond to an inquiry from you.

 

Bringing up the "Cowboy Way" was in reference to the shooter and not anyone else on the posse...I'm sorry that wasn't obvious.

Pretty clear what should be done. I’ve seen a shooter on an unattended ULT throw out a round, pocket it and walk away.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

I've jacked out a round at ULT, and had the attending officer say "Don't Worry"  I reported the round to the TO and took the penalty.

Some folks have their own priorities.  

 

Good luck, GJ

[Cowboy Junky]

18 hours ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

If you have 4 ROs (TO and 3 spotters) that missed the 10th round on the line, we have bigger problems than a MSV... jussayin.

Or were you just that dang fast?

Depending on the target size and sweep you may see this more than you think...……… Open patterns on big targets with the rifle especially. In those situations as the TO I really focus ONLY on the round count and as the TO would instruct the shooter they only fired 9, 8 or whatever. That happens a lot really.  If they ignore the reply and the rifle has rounds in it then it all adds up. If they pick it back up and it fires that the hopeful outcome. 

 

If I counted 10 then as the TO I would make the call for the MSV if there was still a round in it because I counted 10 shots......hopefully so did the 3 spotters. 

 

If I screw up and don't know which has happened ALL you can do is fall back on the spotters...…..if they are lost all you can go with is what they agree on. The round in the gun is obvious......and the MSV has to be called either way. 

[Barry Sloe]

Whether it's a round on the carrier, a piece of brass stove-piped in my '66, or a spent hull stuck in my double - this is only a game.  It doesn't matter if I call the penalty on myself or not, I'm still not going to win the Cadillac.  That's why if I go to pick up my SG or rifle and there's something stuck the first thing I do is get the TO's attention.  Actually it will be the second thing, first I'll mutter some sailor language to myself and then get the TO.

This "Game" is for our own entertainment.  Each of us must determine their own boundaries.

 

I guess that is enough spouting off,

BS

[Captain Bill Burt]

21 minutes ago, Barry Sloe said:

Whether it's a round on the carrier, a piece of brass stove-piped in my '66, or a spent hull stuck in my double - this is only a game.  It doesn't matter if I call the penalty on myself or not, I'm still not going to win the Cadillac.  That's why if I go to pick up my SG or rifle and there's something stuck the first thing I do is get the TO's attention.  Actually it will be the second thing, first I'll mutter some sailor language to myself and then get the TO.

This "Game" is for our own entertainment.  Each of us must determine their own boundaries.

 

I guess that is enough spouting off,

BS

I agree.  I think we also have to remember that just because as a group we're not going to always exemplify the Cowboy Way that doesn't mean as individuals we shouldn't always strive to.  Just because the occasional shooter makes questionable decisions doesn't mean the Cowboy Way isn't alive and well.

[Hoss]

14 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

So if you use a loading block...would you still not call a miss on yourself?

 

How is calling a MSV for the jack out round at the ULT the "Cowboy Way" but not calling a 5 Sec penalty for the unfired round that came out of a loading block/strip/whatever okay?

 

Fricken crazy...IMHO...

 

But, many of you are correct in that with the "Given" info. the officials can only assess the MSV. 

 

So the rest of the philosophical question rests in the hands of all of y'all and your belief that Cowboy Action Shooters are all about the Cowboy Way. 

 

Cheers!

Phantom

most recent case, yes was using a loading block.  Did not jack a round out.  did not leave a round in the loading block.  but I sure as heck was short a round on the stage, only had 9 in the rifle, so I loaded on and went on.  I guress what i'm saying is loading from a  loading block does not mean you cant make a mistake. I have absolutly no idea where that round went.  I do know that I only shot 9, and had to relaod one.  so no miss involved.  I was in no way, shape form or manner tryig to say had I not shot it I wold not have had a miss.  What I am saying, on a "garden variety" miss, (where shooter shoots a round at a target but does not hit it) if the spotters say clean, I'm not argueing with them. 

 

If I found a round in my gun at the ULT, yes, I would call it on myself, MSV and possibly a miss)  so if that makes me "frickin crazy", then fit me up for a straight jacket.  I play the game by the rules. 

[Morgun Play]

Hi Phantom,

i tried sending you a PM but it told me your unable to receive it.

Regards Morgun Play

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

3 hours ago, Morgun Play said:

Hi Phantom,

i tried sending you a PM but it told me your unable to receive it.

Regards Morgun Play

Sorry Morgun Play,  I'm kind of a PM hoarder. 

 

I deleted a few so you should be able to send me a PM...thanks!

 

Phantom

[Scarlett]

On 3/3/2020 at 1:11 PM, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

To both our surprises, there was a round still in the magazine tube. The tube was rusted and the spring couldn't push the follower all the way down. He commented that he hadn't loaded an extra one all day, and wasn't sure how long it could have been in there.

I was gonna say something to this effect - a shooter had a similar thing happen at a state match in ***** several years ago...fired at LT ... hadn’t even loaded rifle yet and it was side match day.... shooter was very experienced and had NO idea that a cartridge was in tube. (‘73) As a matter of habit, I do not allow the hammer to fall at LT... just in case. 

 

TO and spotters should count better.... alas, MSV.

 

Big hugs!

 

Scarlett

 

[Yusta B.]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

As a matter of habit, I do not allow the hammer to fall at LT... just in case. 

 

Right on !!

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

We had this exact thing happen yesterday. Shooter comes to the unloading table, jacks a round out. He said he loaded 10, loading strip.

No this decision on penalty.

 

MSV and 1 miss = 15 seconds.

Ike

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

He got a miss because he jacked out a round... or because the spotters called a miss?

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

He got a miss because he shot nine and not ten!

He loaded 10 from his loading strip, he shot nine, thought he shot 10.

Didn't pole the counters or the TO, The math determined the penalty.

[doc roy l. pain]

This post has been going on for a week and the best I can get out of it is we have many spotters not doing their job or a less than perfect cowboy not calling a penalty on himself. 

[Slick McClade]

Wonder If the shooter loads from a “bag” not a loading strip(would be super hard to miss count from a strip), shoots the stage all 3 spotters and the TO have him clean. He arrives at the loading table clears shotgun, pistols and levers the rifle and a round comes out. He shows the loading table officer the round and all 3 counters and TO still have him clean and stated it was shot correct then the only thing you can do is issue the shooter a MSV.

wonder if that same shooter checked scores the next day and noticed the MSV wasn’t added in. During all the discussion they score keeper didn’t log it. So the said shooter goes to the stat office and request the MSV be added. If the shooter has enough integrity to call the MSV twice on himself why would he not call a miss also If he had it?? Could it be because it was really possibly a overloaded round ?

 

Hypothetically of course

 

[Captain Bill Burt]

1 hour ago, Slick McClade said:

Wonder If the shooter loads from a “bag” not a loading strip(would be super hard to miss count from a strip), shoots the stage all 3 spotters and the TO have him clean. He arrives at the loading table clears shotgun, pistols and levers the rifle and a round comes out. He shows the loading table officer the round and all 3 counters and TO still have him clean and stated it was shot correct then the only thing you can do is issue the shooter a MSV.

wonder if that same shooter checked scores the next day and noticed the MSV wasn’t added in. During all the discussion they score keeper didn’t log it. So the said shooter goes to the stat office and request the MSV be added. If the shooter has enough integrity to call the MSV twice on himself why would he not call a miss also If he had it?? Could it be because it was really possibly a overloaded round ?

 

Hypothetically of course

 

LOL.  You got me to thinking there Slick.  Some shooter's just don't shoot 29 second stages unless they pick up a P, MSV, or a couple of misses.  Sounds like that shooter did things the Cowboy way ensuring that penalty got called. 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

2 hours ago, Slick McClade said:

Wonder If the shooter loads from a “bag” not a loading strip(would be super hard to miss count from a strip), shoots the stage all 3 spotters and the TO have him clean. He arrives at the loading table clears shotgun, pistols and levers the rifle and a round comes out. He shows the loading table officer the round and all 3 counters and TO still have him clean and stated it was shot correct then the only thing you can do is issue the shooter a MSV.

wonder if that same shooter checked scores the next day and noticed the MSV wasn’t added in. During all the discussion they score keeper didn’t log it. So the said shooter goes to the stat office and request the MSV be added. If the shooter has enough integrity to call the MSV twice on himself why would he not call a miss also If he had it?? Could it be because it was really possibly a overloaded round ?

 

Hypothetically of course

 

Interesting. I heard about a "Top Shooter" doing this...I know some side line specifics but not exactly who the shooter was. Seems you have more information then I.

 

But, frankly I'd like to keep the speculation on who this shooter is under wraps as it's not relevant to the discussion. If the shooter wishes to expose themselves to the general population, then fine. We could then discuss all the relevant issues surrounding this incident. 

 

Phantom

[Scarlett]

2 hours ago, Slick McClade said:

Hypothetically of course 

You are a cowboy with an abundance of integrity. 
 

I will absolutely call a MSV or SDQ on myself...because I have done it. I have not called a MDQ on myself...YET...though there was ONE match that I thought (HYPOTHETICALLY) for a half second about dropping a loaded gun but couldn’t bring myself to do it!  

 

I do not call misses or p’s on myself because that’s the spotters job...plus, I’m trying to shoot the stage to the best of my ability and don’t keep track of miss/P.  Now, if If I’m sure, I PROMISE the rest of the posse will be too because I have a tendency to “Arrgghhhhh”! 

 

Big hugs!

Scarlett