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Chili Pepper Pete 11917

Duelist and the two loaded gun rule

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27 minutes ago, Chili Pepper Pete 11917 said:

 

And No One else sees this as a problem?   We cant even clear leather without getting a P

Traditional shooter cant have 2 loaded revolvers out either(remember its clarified "until cocked") GF is the only one that can. 

Dont look at as they GET to have 2 out, look at it as we GET to do a multitude of transitions. I wasn't just being funny when I said I would fully support other duelists just holding the offhand revolver. If they're doing that, then they're not being very efficient. I love having the ability to do some pretty creative transitions, and in the end that is what it is all about.

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3 minutes ago, Redwood Kid said:

Yes there are different rules for gun fighters. It’s not all good either. For example, a gunfighter can’t reholster guns that all rounds haven’t been fired, but all other categories can. It’s a trade off

That's all it is, a trade off. If I'm shooting Gunfighter and can't do this, then you can't do that shooting Duelist. Hah, now we're even.

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1 hour ago, Major B. S. Walker said:

That's all it is, a trade off. If I'm shooting Gunfighter and can't do this, then you can't do that shooting Duelist. Hah, now we're even.

Something like that. I never said I agree with it. It’s just the rules so I follow them. When shooting gunfighter during a stage with split pistols, I have to stage my guns after the first five, and retrieve them later rather than being able to shoot five, holster and shoot the other five later. Yes I am aware of the fact that I can shoot the stage double duelist, but that is not shooting the stage gunfighter. Gunfighter is the only category where it’s possible to be forced to shoot a stage out of category. So yeah there are trade offs. 

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6 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

Traditional shooter cant have 2 loaded revolvers out either(remember its clarified "until cocked") GF is the only one that can. 

Dont look at as they GET to have 2 out, look at it as we GET to do a multitude of transitions. I wasn't just being funny when I said I would fully support other duelists just holding the offhand revolver. If they're doing that, then they're not being very efficient. I love having the ability to do some pretty creative transitions, and in the end that is what it is all about.

Agreed

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7 hours ago, Chili Pepper Pete 11917 said:

 

And No One else sees this as a problem?   We cant even clear leather without getting a P

 

The P does not kick in until one of the pistols is cocked.

 

8 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

Do remember that, in the event that one draws both pistols but is not shooting Gunfighter or B-Western, they may holster one of them without penalty up to the point that one of them is cocked.

 

 

 

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True, but that’s the point  You have to wait till the hammer drops on the 5th round.  Not a nanosecond before.  Wouldn’t it be nice to start drawing your second pistol on the 3 or 4th shot instead of having to wait?   

 

Best regards

 

Chili

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Chili Pepper Pete 11917 said:

True, but that’s the point  You have to wait till the hammer drops on the 5th round.  Not a nanosecond before.  Wouldn’t it be nice to start drawing your second pistol on the 3 or 4th shot instead of having to wait?   

 

Best regards

 

Chili

 

 

Usually, I am putting my rifle or shotgun down while shots 1 and 2 are happening. Placing my hand on the other revolver while 3 and maybe 4 are happening and adjusting my grip to draw at shot 5. Some people place more emphasis on getting rid of what they just shot, I place emphasis on starting the next gun first. WHILE I'm finishing the 2nd pistol, I will shoulder the next long gun and be ready to fire. Transitions, transitions, transitions.

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6 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Usually, I am putting my rifle or shotgun down while shots 1 and 2 are happening. Placing my hand on the other revolver while 3 and maybe 4 are happening and adjusting my grip to draw at shot 5. Some people place more emphasis on getting rid of what they just shot, I place emphasis on starting the next gun first. WHILE I'm finishing the 2nd pistol, I will shoulder the next long gun and be ready to fire. Transitions, transitions, transitions.

Got any match  video of that last transition you mentioned? Would love to see it in action. 

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2 minutes ago, Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 said:

Got any match  video of that last transition you mentioned? Would love to see it in action. 

 

Not in a match, but:

 

 

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1 hour ago, Chili Pepper Pete 11917 said:

True, but that’s the point  You have to wait till the hammer drops on the 5th round.  Not a nanosecond before.  Wouldn’t it be nice to start drawing your second pistol on the 3 or 4th shot instead of having to wait?   

 

Best regards

 

Chili

 

 

You can start your draw at any time you like. For instance, you can grip that second pistol and have it pulled up high in the holster as long as the end of the muzzle does not clear leather.

 

SHB pg 44

Quote

Revolver in hand – when the muzzle of the revolver clears the mouth of the holster, or breaks contact with a prop where it was staged.

 

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47 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

Not in a match, but:

 

 

Isn't that shoot'n style known as 'Double-Duelist',  that somedangbody said doesn't exist? :lol:

OLG

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4 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Isn't that shoot'n style known as 'Double-Duelist',  that somedangbody said doesn't exist? :lol:

OLG

No one said it wasn't a shooting "style", it's just not a official SASS category although it IS at some local matches!

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10 hours ago, Chili Pepper Pete 11917 said:

My question is more about why it is ok for 2 categories to do it with no chance of a P but all duelist categories are subject to it.   All I want is an honest look at the rule to see if it could be amended to allow a Duelist to draw his second pistol before the first is empty.  Duelist would still have to shoot one gun dry before shooting the second.  I’m not trying to change the world here. 

Why? I can shine a little light on the subject...  I doubt that I can answer the question to your satisfaction. When the GF category was first proposed it was very much scrutinized. Many folks thought that it was dangerous and that our membership at large was not capable of doing it safely. A certification process was discussed but nobody wanted to be put into the spot of Certifying someone. The Two loaded Guns out was first seen in the GF category before it was made an official category. When the BW category was proposed by Coyote Calhoun, it was floundering and looked like it was going to fail. One of the things that was holding it back was that anyone could dress that way in any category already, so no special category was required. There was a need to make it Unique... so I proposed that in addition to the Dress and equipment requirements that we allow BW shooters to shoot GF style at will. That was enough to put it over the top and it was ratified. Double Duelist style shooting was not something that you saw Duelist doing in the early days, and nobody even considered having two loaded guns out at the same time.... but after the GFs became more prominent, you started seeing some folks shooting the double duelist style in the Duelist Category.  It didn't take long before it was seen as an advantage (If able to do it) to have both guns out and ready to go instantly. Right or wrong, the practice was disallowed. Back then there was a big effort to make everyone equal... they even tried to limit the number of shells pulled in one draw to Two so that the guys with big hands didn't have an advantage. Ha! If you want the rule changed, good luck. You can try to get it past the WB and on the TG agenda at the next Summit (???), or get the BOD to just DO IT... by decree, mandate or some creative wordsmithing in the form of a Clarification. 

 

Snakebite

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Chili, since a gunfighter can shoot a stage double-duelist style (even if pistols are back-to-back), and since a gunfighter now can shoot one revolver dry before firing the other, the only thing that separates gunfighters from duelists is that they can have two loaded revolvers out and they can alternate shots from revolvers.  Take away one of those things and the they're even more analogous.

 

That's all I got.  

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"Double Duelist is NOT a standalone shooting category." (SHB pg.6 / Duelist Style) The preceding statement would probably explain why Duelist are not permitted to have two loaded pistols in hand. Many Duelist shoot both pistols with only their dominate hand utilizing a crossdraw holster for one pistol. With the exception of smaller matches, many times the Double Duelist shooters are a separate category that often includes aged based delineation. My guess is that conventional Duelist already sense a disadvantage to Double Duelist and then allowing Double Duelist to draw two loaded pistols would be considered a biased advantage. Seems to me the best way to resolve the issue is to admit to the fact that Duelist & Double Duelist are separate Categories and then allow Double Duelist to draw two loaded pistols.

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11 hours ago, Chili Pepper Pete 11917 said:

And No One else sees this as a problem?   We cant even clear leather without getting a P

 

OK, I'll say what everybody else has been too polite to say.

 

No, I do not see it as a problem.

 

Been shooting Duelist for almost 20 years.

 

 

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12 hours ago, Chili Pepper Pete 11917 said:

SG. With all do respect.  As opposed to having to tell if a GF shot 2 rounds at the same time and arguing about that.  Plus the TO should be looking right at the shooters pistols so i would think that would be a pretty easy call to make,  don’t you?

 

 

 

It would add subjectivity  to the duelist category where it doesnt exist now. As someone pushes to cock the second gun a nano second after the last shot is fired from the first, it becomes difficult to make the call. With the gun still in the holster until finished with the first, less subjectivity, easy to get correct call.

Yes, you do have the simultaneous firing issue in GF, but adding more subjectivity to another category isn't the solution.

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13 hours ago, Chili Pepper Pete 11917 said:

 

And No One else sees this as a problem?   We cant even clear leather without getting a P

That's not true, the P comes when one of them is cocked. 

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IMO (be ready for a broken record as this is my new mantra), if a rule:

  • is redundant (a penalty already exists that would cover a potential safety issue),
  • is not directed at a safety issue that is otherwise not covered,
  • in its absence would create an unfair advantage for some shooters;
  • said rule is unnecessary.

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4 hours ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

Not in a match, but:

 

 

Tyrel, I was just figuring that transition out. Its fun. I'm workin on a couple more!

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3 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Tyrel, I was just figuring that transition out. Its fun. I'm workin on a couple more!

Cool, I'll buy you a beverage of your choice if you'll help learn some of that stuff.

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If you want to have two pistols in hand at one time, just declare "GF" on the sign in sheet and be done with it.  Simple.  What's the problem with that?

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19 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

Cool, I'll buy you a beverage of your choice if you'll help learn some of that stuff.

Sweet tea for me! We'll get to practicing a bit and have a big time!

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4 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

That's not true, the P comes when one of them is cocked. 

 

 I truly do understand the clarification but the reality is that for any half fast duelist shooter the first gun in hand will be cocked too quickly for the correction to take place.   IMO  while the option to correct is available, it probably wont stop the P

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Chili Pepper Pete 11917 said:

 

 I truly do understand the clarification but the reality is that for any half fast duelist shooter the first gun in hand will be cocked too quickly for the correction to take place.   IMO  while the option to correct is available, it probably wont stop the P

 

 

 

Probably not.  Having read the backstory on this rule I'm left asking myself, if the argument is that a duelist should be able to do it because a gunfighter can, then why shouldn't a traditional shooter be able to do it too for the same reason?  I know some pretty fast shooters who would probably fire their last round out of their first pistol one handed if they knew that meant they could be drawing their second pistol.

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Yes, a traditional (two handed) shooter can do anything that a Duelist shooter can do. As for a Duelist shooter getting the gun cocked too quickly to correct the problem, I suppose that can be the case... but they had better NOT cock it before it gets to the 45 degree down range!  (I'll be watching!) :ph34r:

 

sb

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7 hours ago, Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 said:

 

OK, I'll say what everybody else has been too polite to say.

 

No, I do not see it as a problem.

 

Been shooting Duelist for almost 20 years.

 

 

 

I too have been shooting Duelist categories for over 20 years so I’m not sure how that is relevant and please don’t be polite on my account,  I’m tough and can handle a little verbal abuse. :P

 

 

I see this as a obsolete and unnecessary rule since the advent of BW and GF  (My Opinion)  You like it as is and I respect that and others who share your opinion.    I don’t have to agree to be respectful.

 

Best regards 

 

Chili

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22 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Probably not.  Having read the backstory on this rule I'm left asking myself, if the argument is that a duelist should be able to do it because a gunfighter can, then why shouldn't a traditional shooter be able to do it too for the same reason?  I know some pretty fast shooters who would probably fire their last round out of their first pistol one handed if they knew that meant they could be drawing their second pistol.

 

I have no issue with including two handed shooters into the mix.  The back story kinda helps make the point that no one cared about it prior to GF and BW.  It was the rule and just how it was done.  I don’t agree that DD didn’t exist in the early days because when I started in the mid 90s there were plenty of people doing it that later became GFs.  It was freaking cool.  GF comes along and it got cooler.  

I tend to want fairness and equality across all the categories.  I agree that some rules are needed to separate categories and keep them autonomous.  I am not convinced this rule does that but thats my opinion.  

 

Best regards

 

Chili

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I’ll apologize in advance if this has already been explained. Why? What’s the point of allowing Duelists to have two loaded guns out of leather at the same time? You want to do that, shoot Gunfighter. I’m just confused as to why we would/should change a category to replicate one that already exists.

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1 hour ago, Shooting Bull said:

I’ll apologize in advance if this has already been explained. Why? What’s the point of allowing Duelists to have two loaded guns out of leather at the same time? You want to do that, shoot Gunfighter. I’m just confused as to why we would/should change a category to replicate one that already exists.

It's more an issue of removing the penalty for having two loaded guns out at the same time. 

 

Kinda sux making that call.

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17 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

It's more an issue of removing the penalty for having two loaded guns out at the same time. 

 

Kinda sux making that call.

 

I sure agree with that last part. But I say that when I have to assess ANY penalty.

 

You choose to play the game, you choose your category, you agree to follow the rules of that category. Don’t like the rules? Work to change them. If I agree with the reason for the change I’ll support it 100%. I’m looking but not seeing a reason to support this change. 

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1 hour ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

I sure agree with that last part. But I say that when I have to assess ANY penalty.

 

You choose to play the game, you choose your category, you agree to follow the rules of that category. Don’t like the rules? Work to change them. If I agree with the reason for the change I’ll support it 100%. I’m looking but not seeing a reason to support this change. 

I'm okay with the way things are as well.

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2 hours ago, Chili Pepper Pete 11917 said:

 

 I don’t agree that DD didn’t exist in the early days because when I started in the mid 90s there were plenty of people doing it that later became GFs.  It was freaking cool.  GF comes along and it got cooler.  

 

Best regards

 

Chili

WOW, we surly did run in different circles. I use to shoot Duelist pretty often when both of my hands worked... and I got around to most of the big matches in the west. I sure didn't see plenty of people doing it back then. It would seem to me that if it were allowed, it would bring the Duelist category so close to the GF category that they should be merged. I'm not in favor of changing it. It was enough when it was allowed that if pulled, it could be re-holstered as long as no gun was cocked. This was done to help those shooters that were forced to drop down to the Duelist category because the GF category could not garnish the minimum number of shooters. Doing so for them would be very difficult. 

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Pete, if the rule were changed what would then be the difference between duelist and Gunfighter? 

 

The logic you use to justify duelist being allowed to do what gunfighters do could be used to argue that the reholstering loaded guns rule for gunfighters should also apply to duelists. You ok with that?

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