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Chili Pepper Pete 11917

Duelist and the two loaded gun rule

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What about shooting your Colt in one hand and your Winchester in the other?    Would that be Gunfighter style, or Duelist?   The shooter only has one loaded revolver out at the time.

 

"The Duke can do no wrong."   :rolleyes:

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Just now, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

What about shooting your Colt in one hand and your Winchester in the other, spin cocking it?    Would that be Gunfighter style, or Duelist?   The shooter only has one loaded revolver out at the time.

 

"The Duke can do no wrong."   :rolleyes:

It’s called True Grit style. 

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1 minute ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

What about shooting your Colt in one hand and your Winchester in the other, spin cocking it?    Would that be Gunfighter style, or Duelist?   The shooter only has one loaded revolver out at the time.

 

"The Duke can do no wrong."   :rolleyes:

I think you'd end up sweeping or breaking the 180.

 

But if you short stroke the rifle, then cock it like in the quick and the dead by throwing the butt up and forward you might be able to make it work

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CBB.    I haven’t given that a whole lot of thought.   I think what is possibly getting missed is that I am not specifically talking about Duelist.  I am talking about all duelist style categories including Classic Cowboy, Frontiersman and all other Duelist shooting categories.  To me we are talking about one specific change not altering these categories in any other way.

 

Also my main reason and question about this proposal is about getting rid of the penalty for clearing leather early.  I was not intending on merging or some how stepping on GF toes.  I have a problem with 2 categories being able to do something others cant when it is not related to safety.  I may be wrong but doesn’t this rule pre date GF and has just always been this way.   I admit I may not have thought of some of the things people brought up but thats why I asked for thought and opinions. 

 

Next I will concede that I am not an expert on GF and the intricate rules that apply specifically to them.  What is the purpose of the not being able to reholster for GF rule?  Is it based on safety?    Seams that if its ok for every other category it isn’t safety based?  Honestly I think it is an outdated rule too because it forces match directors to pretty much always do back to back pistols or encounter the rath of the GF ( yes I know some still do but kinda rare). Or maybe we leave it as is so we have another category specific rule.    But Yes I have no issue with it going away

 

Duelist must shoot one pistol dry and then the other / GF & BW do not.  They may but are not required to.   To me this is the fundamental difference and as such a GF should be able to shoot faster than a duelist based on the fact that GF may have two cocked pistols but a D will always have only one.

 

While it would be allowed if  the rule was changed I doubt I would pull both pistols at the beep.   GFs seem to pull both pistols and point them at the same time, they kinda rock back and forth aiming each gun as they alternate shots on targets.   I think a duelist would concentrate on the gun their shooting and then switch focus to the second gun but thats just my opinion.  To me they are still 2 very different styles of shooting

 

I’m not sure what other diffences there would be but then I don’t know all the differences now.   What do you think the other differences are that I missed?  Additional thoughts

 

 

Best regards,

 

Chili

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Chili Pepper Pete 11917 said:

Duelist must shoot one pistol dry and then the other / GF & BW do not.  

while it may be more expedient for a duelist to shoot one pistol dry and then the other, there is no rule that requires it.

 

While impractical, a duelist could pull one gun, shoot it one time, re holster it, pull the second gun, shoot it one time, reholstering it, and repeat this process five times.

 

A more practical example would be a duelist who shoots 4 rounds out of his first gun and holsters it forgetting he has one round left in it. A good TO would instruct the Duelist to place the first round of the second gun on the 5th Target of the string and shoot Target's 5 through 9. Once that second gun was dry, the Duelist could pull the first revolver back out and shoot the 10th Target.

 

1 minute ago, Chili Pepper Pete 11917 said:

 

GFs seem to pull both pistols and point them at the same time, they kinda rock back and forth aiming each gun as they alternate shots on targets.   I think a duelist would concentrate on the gun their shooting and then switch focus to the second gun but thats just my opinion.  To me they are still 2 very different styles of shooting

I remember spotting for a gunfighter in Georgia last year. He would jerk both pistols out, pointing both straight at the Target, shoot the right gun dry, and still holding it there shoot the left gun dry, and then holster them both. Nothing wrong with that.

 

I myself have been known to change leads, shooting consecutive shots with either the right hand or the left hand in the middle of a string. Nothing wrong with that either.

 

Sometimes if I've got to change positions between a long gun and a pistol position while carrying the long gun, I'll draw 1 pistol with the free hand and get off a couple shots with it as I stage the long gun and draw my second revolver. I'll then alternates shots after that and just have to end by shooting a couple shots with that second gun consecutively.

 

A gunfighter could also decide to shoot the entire match in the double duelist style, pulling one gun shooting it dry with his right hand, and then repeating with the left hand. That's a legal option as well for a gunfighter.

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12 hours ago, Chili Pepper Pete 11917 said:

  a GF should be able to shoot faster than a duelist based on the fact that GF may have two cocked pistols but a D will always have only one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have thought long and hard about that for about 5 minutes. While a GF may have a quicker time from pistol start to stop, they cant as a general rule fire the pistols faster(excluding widders record cause he's just weird). It just happens that each pistol time overlaps with each other. When you take how severely limited transitions are, it's a wash or maybe even tips advantage to duelist(I'm ducking now). Now, I'm too dumb to shoot gunfighter but I have thought a bit about how to overcome the transition deficit. If a shooter had the mental stability to do so: I would fire first 2-3 rounds with one pistol while laying down shotgun or rifle. Then continue as usual. The pistol I started with will run dry before the 2nd. When it does, Id shoulder the remaining long gun while finishing the first pistol.  This would eliminate any wasted movement such as not being able to do anything while you're holstering two pistols; and that dreaded time waster of laying a gun down and then drawing two pistols. Why not do it at the same time? Like I said though, I dont have that mental stability.

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8 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

I have thought long and hard about that for about 5 minutes. While a GF may have a quicker time from pistol start to stop, they cant as a general rule fire the pistols faster(excluding widders record cause he's just weird). It just happens that each pistol time overlaps with each other. When you take how severely limited transitions are, it's a wash or maybe even tips advantage to duelist(I'm ducking now). Now, I'm too dumb to shoot gunfighter but I have thought a bit about how to overcome the transition deficit. If a shooter had the mental stability to do so: I would fire first 2-3 rounds with one pistol while laying down shotgun or rifle. Then continue as usual. The pistol I started with will run dry before the 2nd. When it does, Id shoulder the remaining long gun while finishing the first pistol.  This would eliminate any wasted movement such as not being able to do anything while you're holstering two pistols; and that dreaded time waster of laying a gun down and then drawing two pistols. Why not do it at the same time? Like I said though, I dont have that mental stability.

I have been shooting gunfighter since I started this game. Recently I have tried to shooting classic cowboy just because it's really cool (I already dressed the part and shot the guns), and after getting a schofield and realizing it can't handle BP I figured I would try it out. My first match didn't go well. My loads, full cases of BP in 45 colt, were much more stout than I had ever noticed before. You see, when shooting them gunfighter I don't notice the recoil so much because I am aiming and firing the other gun during recoil. Shooting it duelist, I had what seemed like minutes to wait between shots. So I had to drop the recoil substantially in order to even come close to shooting the same times. After getting the load right, and using my natural ambidexterity, I can if everything goes right, shoot faster duelist than gunfighter. But since I have a lot more practice shooting gunfighter, I typically shoot gunfighter faster because everything goes right more often than not shooting gunfighter versus duelist. Maybe with some more practice?

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1 hour ago, Redwood Kid said:

Maybe with some more practice?

Cut for brevity.

  How did you adapt to your transitions as a duelist? Lot of small things that can add up for a stage time. For instance, sometimes if Im shooting pistol, rifle, shotgun I will shoot right pistol first, then left pistol while I get the rifle ready and as Im holstering the left pistol I GRAB 2 SHOTSHELLS while my hand is coming back up to the forearm of my rifle(my hand was already there I put it to use). That way it saves me a 3/4 second shell grab.

Big difference coming from GF to duelist. I bet it took some getting used to.

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1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

Big difference coming from GF to duelist. I bet it took some getting used to.

 

And it really stinks when you’re used to pulling both guns and earn yourself a P :(

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11 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

I have thought long and hard about that for about 5 minutes. While a GF may have a quicker time from pistol start to stop, they cant as a general rule fire the pistols faster(excluding widders record cause he's just weird). It just happens that each pistol time overlaps with each other. When you take how severely limited transitions are, it's a wash or maybe even tips advantage to duelist(I'm ducking now). Now, I'm too dumb to shoot gunfighter but I have thought a bit about how to overcome the transition deficit. If a shooter had the mental stability to do so: I would fire first 2-3 rounds with one pistol while laying down shotgun or rifle. Then continue as usual. The pistol I started with will run dry before the 2nd. When it does, Id shoulder the remaining long gun while finishing the first pistol.  This would eliminate any wasted movement such as not being able to do anything while you're holstering two pistols; and that dreaded time waster of laying a gun down and then drawing two pistols. Why not do it at the same time? Like I said though, I dont have that mental stability.

Maybe you could shoot GF - but shoot it double duelist just like you are shooting now. Wouldn't that save you drawing time on 1 pistol ?

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10 hours ago, Yusta B. said:

Maybe you could shoot GF - but shoot it double duelist just like you are shooting now. Wouldn't that save you drawing time on 1 pistol ?

It would. I've done what I mentioned above messing around at the house. It's the overlapping pistols that get me. My biggest drawback in this game is the mental aspect. That is probably the case for most shooters that will admit it. Plus I just flat out enjoy shooting duelist(Randy St Eagles' fault).

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Target sequence determines which is faster.

Which take you longer, drawing the 2nd pistol Duelist or re-acquiring sight picture 10 times GF?

Sweeps are faster GF. Dbl taps (or more) take longer.

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On 3/13/2019 at 11:58 AM, Marshal Hangtree said:

If you want to have two pistols in hand at one time, just declare "GF" on the sign in sheet and be done with it.  Simple.  What's the problem with that?

Now that was all too simple....

 

The only advantage a GF has is that they can shoot either way, depending what is advantages to the stage sequence/transitions. 

If your shooting Dbl Duelist with two guns drawn all the time as Gunfighter, your not going to keep up with other GF'ers after 10-12 stages.

If you can keep your brain straight switching between GF and Duelist, all the power to you. Shooting the same way every stage for years does not make for a well rounded shooter able to adapt to change in stages and things off the clock. I want to play Cowboy, not just Quick Draw.

 

Allowing a Dbl Duelist to draw both guns, just to be faster, is a disadvantage for the Traditional Duelist when you have the option to do it as a gunfighter already.

No changes are required when it is already allowed in another category.

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Is it that simple?  This is not about Duelist as a category, this is about duelist style,  as it pertains to all categories required to shoot that way.

 

 Shooting GF as a CC isn't an option and its not overly practical for Frontiersman because of cap and cylinder jams.  I've done it but can be a bit awkward if something goes wrong.    As for it being a disadvantage to traditional duelist shooters I guess I don't really see that as an issue,  they choose to shoot how they shoot.   Shooters in GF and Duelist categories don't shoot against each other so i'm having a hard time seeing how changing the rule has any effect on GFs at all.   So what if it brings "Duelist" closer to GF  why is that a problem?

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38 minutes ago, Chili Pepper Pete 11917 said:

Is it that simple?  This is not about Duelist as a category, this is about duelist style,  as it pertains to all categories required to shoot that way.

 

 Shooting GF as a CC isn't an option and its not overly practical for Frontiersman because of cap and cylinder jams.  I've done it but can be a bit awkward if something goes wrong.    As for it being a disadvantage to traditional duelist shooters I guess I don't really see that as an issue,  they choose to shoot how they shoot.   Shooters in GF and Duelist categories don't shoot against each other so i'm having a hard time seeing how changing the rule has any effect on GFs at all.   So what if it brings "Duelist" closer to GF  why is that a problem?

I wonder how close it would bring the two?  It seems to me that if you allow a duelist to have two guns out at the same time and they can be cocked, there's not a lot left to distinguish the two categories from each other.  Can they both be cocked at the same time?

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1 hour ago, Blast Masterson said:

Target sequence determines which is faster.

Which take you longer, drawing the 2nd pistol Duelist or re-acquiring sight picture 10 times GF?

Sweeps are faster GF. Dbl taps (or more) take longer.

No, not actually. Yusta said shoot gunfighter duelist style like I do now. So, there would be no difference in target acquisition.

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1 hour ago, Blast Masterson said:

 

If your shooting Dbl Duelist with two guns drawn all the time as Gunfighter, your not going to keep up with other GF'ers after 10-12 stages.

It took me a second to realize you were not saying a double duelist cant keep up with a gunfighter 10-12 stages. I would agree for the most part on your statement because it would kill the advantage a duelist has with transitions. If a person were to just want to shoot for the ultimate in speed, they would blend duelist and gunfighter which IS gunfighter. Im not familiar with GF rules, but is there a rule they cant reholster with intent to reengage or something like that?

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I'd like to elaborate on my new mantra. First, what is the reason that only a GF may have two loaded guns in hand?

 

It can't be safety or a GF would not be allowed to do so.

 

It can't be to make the competition fair as removing the rule would be fair to all.

 

I've seen comments that including clarifications in the SHB would make it this big. If we got rid of unnecessary rules there would be room for concise clarifications.

 

Huge Book!.jpg

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3 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

I'd like to elaborate on my new mantra. First, what is the reason that only a GF may have two loaded guns in hand?

 

It can't be safety or a GF would not be allowed to do so.

 

It can't be to make the competition fair as removing the rule would be fair to all.

 

I've seen comments that including clarifications in the SHB would make it this big. If we got rid of unnecessary rules there would be room for concise clarifications.

 

Huge Book!.jpg

  The rule doesn't matter to me either way, as I don't have the inclination to hold the revolver I cant do anything with because I'm doing other hopefully productive things with my offhand while I'm shooting. 

    In my opinion, the rule book is so big because peoples' reading comprehension is so small. That and people come up with off the wall stuff that has to have a rule to tell them its not okay. How many times have you heard show me where it says I cant do this or that? On a social media site there was a ton of pages on whether or not a shotgun held between a shooters' legs was staged or not. You just can't make this stuff up.

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16 hours ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

And it really stinks when you’re used to pulling both guns and earn yourself a P :(

The first time...the second it's a SDQ...third is a MDQ. It really tends to slow the shooter down after that first penalty. It's a struggle to stay in the match coming from gunfighter to duelist. Unnecessary progressive penalty. There's nothing unsafe being done here. 

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1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

If a person were to just want to shoot for the ultimate in speed, they would blend duelist and gunfighter which IS gunfighter. Im not familiar with GF rules, but is there a rule they cant reholster with intent to reengage or something like that?

That was my point (not clear). Some stages can be shot better (thus faster) using one or the other sequence.

ie.  A GF transition in a stand and deliver vs. changing position would lead to 'blending' one or the other. All things must be considered in GF. Sequential cocking, Dbl cocking, one gun, two gun, next gun, lead change etc. Anything to quicken transition (which is where most time can be saved (as your saying).

 

Yes, your correct, you can not re-holster when targets are split. You must stage them (without either being cocked). In this case I shoot duelist (but still Dbl Duelist) as a GF as not to take the chance of brain fog. I assume the reason for the rule is there is a high probability to holster (or drop) a cocked revolver.

 

GF transitions can be more complicated than just shooting two pistols. Thus GF is not as big of an advantage as it appears because you have two guns out.

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My goodness.  Why is this so difficult?  This rule has to do with "style", not safety.  If it was a safety issue, it would be applied across the board.

 

"Duelist" and "Gunfighter" are shooting STYLES.  Certain categories have certain STYLES available to them and certain STYLES prohibited.  Would you want Frontiersman shooting 2 handed, cocking the hammer with the weak side thumb at the speed of lightning?  NO.  It would be out of the style of old C&B pistols to do so.  Classic Cowboy requires external hammered shotguns.  Would you want CC shooting '97's?  NO.  It would be out of style for CC to use pump guns.  The styles exist so that not everyone is forced to shoot in a manner that they don't want, and so that like styles compete against each other.

 

If you want to shoot a different STYLE, then sign your entry card for a category that allows that style.  It's really that simple.

 

Otherwise, let's just get rid of all restrictions and shoot whatever you want, in any category you want, thereby making only one category.  Do away with age, sex, propellant, and whatever else separates one group from another.

 

 Instead of allowing every group to shoot with two pistols in hand at the same time, let's just force everybody to shoot the same style.  Say . . . . . Outlaw!

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3 hours ago, Carolina Gunslinger said:

The first time...the second it's a SDQ...third is a MDQ. It really tends to slow the shooter down after that first penalty. It's a struggle to stay in the match coming from gunfighter to duelist. Unnecessary progressive penalty. There's nothing unsafe being done here. 

CG, keep in mind this is just my .02 and that's double what it's worth. I think the rule is there just helping to describe the duelist category just as the part about your hand being unsupported. 

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9 minutes ago, Marshal Hangtree said:

Would you want Frontiersman shooting 2 handed, cocking the hammer with the weak side thumb at the speed of lightning?  NO.  It would be out of the style of old C&B pistols to do so. 

 

Well, considering C&B revolvers are legal for any category and style this argument is kind of moot.

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5 hours ago, Blast Masterson said:

That was my point (not clear). Some stages can be shot better (thus faster) using one or the other sequence.

ie.  A GF transition in a stand and deliver vs. changing position would lead to 'blending' one or the other. All things must be considered in GF. Sequential cocking, Dbl cocking, one gun, two gun, next gun, lead change etc. Anything to quicken transition (which is where most time can be saved (as your saying).

 

Yes, your correct, you can not re-holster when targets are split. You must stage them (without either being cocked). In this case I shoot duelist (but still Dbl Duelist) as a GF as not to take the chance of brain fog. I assume the reason for the rule is there is a high probability to holster (or drop) a cocked revolver.

 

GF transitions can be more complicated than just shooting two pistols. Thus GF is not as big of an advantage as it appears because you have two guns out.

If shooting GF you have to use both hands even with split pistols. 

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6 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

  The rule doesn't matter to me either way, as I don't have the inclination to hold the revolver I cant do anything with because I'm doing other hopefully productive things with my offhand while I'm shooting. 

    In my opinion, the rule book is so big because peoples' reading comprehension is so small. That and people come up with off the wall stuff that has to have a rule to tell them its not okay. How many times have you heard show me where it says I cant do this or that? On a social media site there was a ton of pages on whether or not a shotgun held between a shooters' legs was staged or not. You just can't make this stuff up.

I've seen some of your videos. if the rule changed so would the way you shoot Duelist just like it would for me. example. Stage calls for a double tap sweep rifle then Pistol. Rifle is finished goes down as you draw pistol. Start pistol sequence complete getting rid of rifle. Grasp second pistol and it arrives in time to be waiting to shoot. After last round is fired you start 2nd pistol and get rid of first. Now that hand is free but you saved x time on the draw. If you didnt adapt you would fall behind as would I and others.

 

EMN

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21 minutes ago, El Muerto Negro said:

I've seen some of your videos. if the rule changed so would the way you shoot Duelist just like it would for me. example. Stage calls for a double tap sweep rifle then Pistol. Rifle is finished goes down as you draw pistol. Start pistol sequence complete getting rid of rifle. Grasp second pistol and it arrives in time to be waiting to shoot. After last round is fired you start 2nd pistol and get rid of first. Now that hand is free but you saved x time on the draw. If you didnt adapt you would fall behind as would I and others.

 

EMN

You're absolutely right in the scenario you described. I was more referring to someone setting rifle down and drawing 2 pistols at same time like you see gunfighters do. If we did that, we'd just be stuck holding one of the pistols.

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2 hours ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

Well, considering C&B revolvers are legal for any category and style this argument is kind of moot.

Yes, I know, Tyrel, that you can shoot C&B revolvers in any category.  That was not my point.  My point was that you cannot shoot Gunfighter style in Frontiersman category.  Frontiersman category, as you know, requires Duelist or Double Duelist style.  This whole thing is about style, not which guns can be fired in what category.

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15 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

CG, keep in mind this is just my .02 and that's double what it's worth. I think the rule is there just helping to describe the duelist category just as the part about your hand being unsupported. 

I understand. I also contend that they should not have made your match participation hang in the balance because you can't deprogram drawing and cocking two guns. A progressive penalty here is unnecessary given that if the shooter repeatedly does this he's killing his score with the P's and making himself liable to incur the SOTG if he's gaining a competitive advantage. It's just harsh for harshness sake. 

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Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362

 4 days till SPRING and maybe ,just maybe common sense will return. I notice many seem to lack vitamin D which causes many side effects ,long sleeve shirts , large hats etc all add to this dangerous condition .The first indicator of this syndrome is the relocation of ones belly button. :o :FlagAm:

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6 hours ago, Carolina Gunslinger said:

I understand. I also contend that they should not have made your match participation hang in the balance because you can't deprogram drawing and cocking two guns. A progressive penalty here is unnecessary given that if the shooter repeatedly does this he's killing his score with the P's and making himself liable to incur the SOTG if he's gaining a competitive advantage. It's just harsh for harshness sake. 

I have earned a P for two guns out at once before. It wasn't necessarily drawing too early per se. I lost count on the first pistol and in the split second while I was drawing/reholstering I had two loaded guns out. This of course was before pwb clarification one must be cocked. I dont see a SOTG being called for this infraction since you can't earn a sotg for an accidental screw up and if someone thinks you're doing it because you save more than the 10 second penalty they need to take up another sport. Like curling or marbles.

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1 hour ago, Shooting Bull said:

I like curling :(

That doesn't suprise me Ford man.:ph34r:

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