Ruminations concerning EOT TG meeting

[Goody, SASS #26190]

Specifically this

"J. T. Wild then renewed a proposal he raised during the Winter Range TG meeting that an Open Category be made available in which a shooter would compete only for the overall winner award.  The rationale offered was that doing so would take some of the top shooters out of the other categories and allow competitors who would typically not win their category the opportunity of doing so.  Lassiter pointed out that current SASS rules allow match directors to offer such an additional category.  Misty expressed the view that the proposal was a 1% matter, dealing with a matter of concern only to a very few SASS members.  There was a discussion of All Around Cowboy categories (in which a competitor shoots some stages Gunfighter style, some Duelist, some Black Powder, etc.) and the point was made that the proposal under consideration would require specific rules to deal with firearms, shooting style and costuming requirements for those shooting in such an Open Category.  There appeared to be little consensus and the matter was deferred without action. "

 

Personally I think this is a fantastic idea. There are several clubs in the area that do this very thing, for the reason mentioned. It is a voluntary choice like any category. Most allow any style shooting, even mixing it up at the shooters discretion between stages. There are no costuming restrictions past the basics. No powder or sights or calibers are specified, any SASS main match legal firearms are allowed. It is normally well supported with the really fast shooters wanting to compete with each other anyway. As for only 1%, that is really all the smaller categories cover anyway, if that many. Many categories have to beg and plead to get the minimum of 5(?) to have the category.  7 shooters would be 1% of 700 at EOT.

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

I don't know...

Now this is just my thinkin only..

I, by far, am not going to win my catagory at a major match..

but.. If I did under this type of ruling..

I know I'd be going to the high overall winners..

Look up my class.. See what they shot the match in..

and be thinking to myself.. "I didn't win my class by 1minute 38 seconds.. 

 

Rance 

Just sayin' my thinkin only 

Leave it alone..

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

 I could see there being support for something like this if it were presented a little differently. It’s being presented as a non-category when in fact it would be another category. If it were a true open category where is shooter could shoot any style with any legal gun on any stage, I think it could gain traction. But as of yet I don’t think there any proposed rules and without rules cannot have a competition.

[Shooting Bull]

3 hours ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

  The rationale offered was that doing so would take some of the top shooters out of the other categories and allow competitors who would typically not win their category the opportunity of doing so. 

 

 

Yayyyyyyyy, more winner's trophies for people that didn't earn them.

[wyliefoxEsquire]

Look around at your fellow shooters.  What is the average age?  How many new shooters to your club  under the age of 30, no 40 no 50, yeah 50, do you get a year?

How many shooters will travel to non-local state matches?

 

Anything we do to promote more shooters is a good thing, anything.  

We must keep the interest up with existing shooters and find ways to encourage new shooters.

 

Say you are a 32 year old interested in CAS.  So you look at the 2018 EOT results for your category "cowboy".  Hmmm the top 6 in cowboy were also the top 6 overall. 

 

The current categories are designed for the old f*rts, like me.  Once you get to be 60 you get a new category every 5 years.

What more categories you say!!  Why not?  It really does not mean that many more awards, but it might mean more new shooters.  

EOT and Winter Range could limit awards to top 5 or 6 instead of 10.

Or how about the top 25% ( 15% or 20% just pick) of category.

In 18 of the 2018 EOT categories ALL of the shooters in that category got top 10 awards, ALL of them.

Of the 616 shooters at EOT 368 had their name called at the award ceremony, and walked up front to receive their award.  About 60% of shooters got awards.

Many shooters finishing in the last 100 shooters earned top 10 awards.  Is this why they attend?  Don't know.  But I suspect it helps.

Why not have 5 year age categories starting at 20?

I understand the history, but I think that history will eventually make CAS and SASS "history".

 

I am in favor of the Open Category and any other suggestions to increase involvement.

The number of awards handed out is a simple matter of math!!!  It is NOT a reason to limit the number categories.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

34 minutes ago, wyliefoxEsquire said:

Look around at your fellow shooters.  What is the average age?  How many new shooters to your club  under the age of 30, no 40 no 50, yeah 50, do you get a year?

How many shooters will travel to non-local state matches?

 

Anything we do to promote more shooters is a good thing, anything.  

We must keep the interest up with existing shooters and find ways to encourage new shooters.

 

Say you are a 32 year old interested in CAS.  So you look at the 2018 EOT results for your category "cowboy".  Hmmm the top 6 in cowboy were also the top 6 overall. 

 

The current categories are designed for the old f*rts, like me.  Once you get to be 60 you get a new category every 5 years.

What more categories you say!!  Why not?  It really does not mean that many more awards, but it might mean more new shooters.  

EOT and Winter Range could limit awards to top 5 or 6 instead of 10.

Or how about the top 25% ( 15% or 20% just pick) of category.

In 18 of the 2018 EOT categories ALL of the shooters in that category got top 10 awards, ALL of them.

Of the 616 shooters at EOT 368 had their name called at the award ceremony, and walked up front to receive their award.  About 60% of shooters got awards.

Many shooters finishing in the last 100 shooters earned top 10 awards.  Is this why they attend?  Don't know.  But I suspect it helps.

Why not have 5 year age categories starting at 20?

I understand the history, but I think that history will eventually make CAS and SASS "history".

 

I am in favor of the Open Category and any other suggestions to increase involvement.

The number of awards handed out is a simple matter of math!!!  It is NOT a reason to limit the number categories.

I'm curious, do you usually buckle at these large matches?

[Shooting Bull]

1 hour ago, wyliefoxEsquire said:

I am in favor of the Open Category and any other suggestions to increase involvement.

The number of awards handed out is a simple matter of math!!!  It is NOT a reason to limit the number categories.

 

 

You're making two different statements about two different subjects, involvement and awards.  The idea isn't increasing involvement, it's only increasing the number of awards that get handed out.  And in the process you're lowering the standards by which those awards are earned.

[Matthew Duncan]

How about eliminating all categories and pass out participation awards?  That way everyone could place in first place!

[Bald Eagle]

I also think its a good idea, sort of like Open class in IPSC shooting.

My thinking is this is a category for all the fast shooters that have everything gamed up equipment wise. It would make normal wrangler, 49er classes etc better for the average shooter.

Currently here in NZ there are a number of very fast guys spread through a  few categories that make it hard (read depressing, frustrating, discouraging) for others in that category as they feel extremely slow compared to them (thats why i shoot Frontier!).

Sort of levels the playing field and allows the really fast guys to compete against each other

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

Competition logic says it won't work. I can compete in a category where I stand a good chance of being first. I get a bobble. Then I am also in competition to win overall.

Now I'll step back and compete only for top overall. And probably walk away with nothing!

Imagine the whine factor, yeah he won but he shot xx guns and such and such style, no wonder.

Ike

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

1 minute ago, Matthew Duncan said:

How about eliminating all cat ivories and pass out participation awards?  That way everyone could place in first lace!

 

Autocorrect fail??

[Shooting Bull]

4 minutes ago, Bald Eagle said:

I also think its a good idea, sort of like Open class in IPSC shooting.

My thinking is this is a category for all the fast shooters that have everything gamed up equipment wise. It would make normal wrangler, 49er classes etc better for the average shooter.

 

 

Apples to oranges comparison.  Open class in IPSC isn't based on skill, it's based on equipment that's allowed to be used.  Yes, the fast shooters tend to gravitate to that category but only because most of them want to use the latest greatest stuff available.  On the other hand you have world class shooters such as Rob Latham who still shoot uncompensated guns with iron sights.

[Matthew Duncan]

1 minute ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Autocorrect fail??

Yep.  I fixed it.  But it does read better the autocorrect way doesn't it?

[Hillbilly Drifter]

most of the arguments against this motion seem to suggest we have only one category, winner take all

 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I like the idea of an 'Open Category'.     And I'm glad its in the 'thought mode'.

 

Lets see how this pans out.

 

..........Widder

 

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

49 minutes ago, Matthew Duncan said:

How about eliminating all categories and pass out participation awards?  That way everyone could place in first place!

 

Wow!! I was 17th. in my class and I got this beautiful buckle!! 

Life is good ain't it..

What do you mean entry fee's are $100 higher this year.. 

 

Rance 

Thinkin hey I bought a eeerrrrrrr... Uuuhhhh... Won a buckle tho 

[Hells Comin]

Great a idea for club matches, but not for major matches. I think there will only be 2 or 3 categories with shooters willing to move into an open category to shoot against the likes of Matt Black and a few others. So lets say 10 cowboys move into the open category (EOT) and you happen to win  the cowboy category because they moved into open. That's like getting a participation trophy and I wouldn't like the feelings I'd have from being World champion and not shooting against the best .

just my 2 cents.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

4 minutes ago, Hells Comin said:

Great a idea for club matches, but not for major matches. I think there will only be 2 or 3 categories with shooters willing to move into an open category to shoot against the likes of Matt Black and a few others. So lets say 10 cowboys move into the open category (EOT) and you happen to win  the cowboy category because they moved into open. That's like getting a participation trophy and I wouldn't like the feelings I'd have from being World champion and not shooting against the best .

just my 2 cents.

The same could be said about the guy (or gal), that moves to an "Older" category. So the guy that moves to Senior from 49'r and beats ya. Do you feel that you are the 49'r Champion?

 

That being said, I think the idea will result in nothing. Think how silly someone would feel finishing 2nd, 3rd...5th...10th...overall and yet winning the Overall award. 

 

I must be missing something...

Phantom

[Rye Miles #13621]

Personally I think it’s a dumb idea! Let’s just leave it alone please??? Too many categories now!!!

[Shooting Bull]

2 hours ago, Hillbilly Drifter said:

most of the arguments against this motion seem to suggest we have only one category, winner take all

 

 

Either you’re misunderstanding the arguments against this motion or I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying. Please elaborate. 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

3 hours ago, wyliefoxEsquire said:

Look around at your fellow shooters.  What is the average age?  How many new shooters to your club  under the age of 30, no 40 no 50, yeah 50, do you get a year?

How many shooters will travel to non-local state matches?

 

Anything we do to promote more shooters is a good thing, anything.  

We must keep the interest up with existing shooters and find ways to encourage new shooters.

 

Say you are a 32 year old interested in CAS.  So you look at the 2018 EOT results for your category "cowboy".  Hmmm the top 6 in cowboy were also the top 6 overall. 

 

The current categories are designed for the old f*rts, like me.  Once you get to be 60 you get a new category every 5 years.

What more categories you say!!  Why not?  It really does not mean that many more awards, but it might mean more new shooters.  

EOT and Winter Range could limit awards to top 5 or 6 instead of 10.

Or how about the top 25% ( 15% or 20% just pick) of category.

In 18 of the 2018 EOT categories ALL of the shooters in that category got top 10 awards, ALL of them.

Of the 616 shooters at EOT 368 had their name called at the award ceremony, and walked up front to receive their award.  About 60% of shooters got awards.

Many shooters finishing in the last 100 shooters earned top 10 awards.  Is this why they attend?  Don't know.  But I suspect it helps.

Why not have 5 year age categories starting at 20?

I understand the history, but I think that history will eventually make CAS and SASS "history".

 

I am in favor of the Open Category and any other suggestions to increase involvement.

The number of awards handed out is a simple matter of math!!!  It is NOT a reason to limit the number categories.

There's BW,  Duelist, Gunfighter, Classic Cowboy, Frontier Cartridge, Frontier Cartridge Duelist...and you think that this is insufficient? 

 

Tell me how you see having an Open Category will help bring in younger folks.

 

Phantom (Mr. Low Self Esteem to you)

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

I’d be willing to bet that if there were a true open category, it would not be the least populated category at any big matches. 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 minute ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

I’d be willing to bet that if there were a true open category, it would not be the least populated category at any big matches. 

I'm in on that action...if anyone takes our bets...I'm betting we'll be in the money!!!!

 

[Captain Clark]

I sat through JT's  discussion of this idea at the TG meeting and it didn't seem to sway the room then. It sounds like a noble idea but not needed IMO.

[Castalia,SASS#18915]

Unlimited category with "Sponsors" and "Cash" awards. Maybe. Maybe not.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

23 minutes ago, Castalia,SASS#18915 said:

Unlimited category with "Sponsors" and "Cash" awards. Maybe. Maybe not.

 

NOT!

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

No.

I'm a fair to middlin' Gunfighter.

I would LOVE to claim I own a National or World Championship.  

 

But a win solely because your superior competition moved themselves to a different category is not a victory.

 

And will never be viewed as anything beyond a 2nd tier award.

 

And I'm not interested in that.

No competitor is.

[Goody, SASS #26190]

I can see that some are very passionate about this. Most of the objections seem due to not feeling as though you earned the win if the top shooter(s) in your category had shot this new, as yet unapproved, category. What if you are, say, a 49er, and several of the top shooters chose to shoot Cowboy. Would you still feel as though you were unworthy of the victory?

[Matthew Duncan]

11 hours ago, Rance - SASS # 54090 said:

What do you mean entry fee's are $100 higher this year.. 

 

 

 

No NO NO!  The buckles will be free!  Just make the wealthier Cowpokes pay a higher entry fee!  

[MBFields]

Am going to take a shot at this and hope it does not seem harsh? What we all do is supposed to be for fun and then competition. I have always loved the old west and being cowboy and that plus loving shooting in general drew me this way. While we are all to some point competitive at heart also need the enjoyment factor as well. That being said,  the bigger matches are that, Competition. And with competition you have best, better, etc. That is the point of say, EOT, Winter Range, Regionals, etc. Really like the idea of drawing new shooters in but not at the idea of dumbing down the sport so to speak. Not to say new shooters are dumb or not good. We have plenty of choices for categories. People switch categories or styles just to try and win because of fewer shooters and that is fine. Putting up another category just for the sake of more mediocre winners, please forgive me for that, might be good for egos but does not show true, well talent. I do not regularly place or win and yet I keep on, even in the 49r category which is ruled by the likes of great shooters and now am senior and the great 49r's are now great seniors. But I shoot for the love of shooting and the people. So that all being said think that should. leave well enough alone. IMHO. Am going to put on my asbestos suit now.

[Shooting Bull]

MBFields, I have a very minor philosophical disagreement with your post but it doesn't rise nearly to the point of you needing an asbestos suit.  Overall I couldn't agree more.

 

(In case anyone's interested, my disagreement is your wording implying "fun" and "competition" are separate and distinct entities.  Some of us get our fun from the competition.  If there's no competition I may as well be out in the middle of the desert clanging steel alone. That's tantamount to practice and we all know practice ain't fun.  )

[McCandless]

I'm not for this nor against it.  You're talking about a level of competition that's way above me.  But, let me pose this.  You're shooting in X category.  You did real well and came out on top.   The other shooters were no slouches either.  The competition was pretty tough. Do you feel the win was cheapened because a shooter you think is better, over in the next state, couldn't make it this year?

What about if you're a Gunfighter and win first in your category over a good field, but a faster shooter opted for FCGF this year.  Do you pass up your first place category win, or feel bad about it?

This discussion is about a hypothetical category.  What are your feelings when the person you perceive as your main competition isn't there, or switched categories?

Like I said, I don't have a pony in this race... Just interested in this for it's own sake.

 

[Barry Sloe]

First off, I personally believe that there are enough categories to cover everyone's interest.

 

What I don't understand is the argument that if my major competitor happens to change categories, and then I win my category, it lessens my win.  I don't see it that way.  As long as I have competition (not the only one in the category) and I shoot to the best of my ability, then I have earned the win.  What would you do if you were shooting against that same major competitor and they had a major train wreck, or two, and you won.  Would you give them the trophy because they would have won without the train wrecks?

 

Just my thoughts on this hump day,

Barry Sloe

[Chicken George*]

If I were going to add another category, it would be on the other end. An open beginner's category that you can't win a buckle with. Entry fee could be less and shooters could shoot it even if they didn't have all their guns, leather or whatever yet. Just shoot what you have. Those with health problems that can't do everything could also shoot it. 

[Yul Lose]

13 minutes ago, Chicken George* said:

If I were going to add another category, it would be on the other end. An open beginner's category that you can't win a buckle with. Entry fee could be less and shooters could shoot it even if they didn't have all their guns, leather or whatever yet. Just shoot what you have. Those with health problems that can't do everything could also shoot it. 

Most clubs already do that and it doesn’t require another category. A lower entry fee isn’t needed, IMO, of course.