Ruminations concerning EOT TG meeting

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

1 hour ago, McCandless said:

I'm not for this nor against it.  You're talking about a level of competition that's way above me.  But, let me pose this.  You're shooting in X category.  You did real well and came out on top.   The other shooters were no slouches either.  The competition was pretty tough. Do you feel the win was cheapened because a shooter you think is better, over in the next state, couldn't make it this year?

What about if you're a Gunfighter and win first in your category over a good field, but a faster shooter opted for FCGF this year.  Do you pass up your first place category win, or feel bad about it?

This discussion is about a hypothetical category.  What are your feelings when the person you perceive as your main competition isn't there, or switched categories?

Like I said, I don't have a pony in this race... Just interested in this for it's own sake.

 

I won my first, and probably only ever buckle at last years state BP shoot when three guys that are much faster than me decided to all shoot frontiersman gunfighter rather than FCGF. One of them even won the whole match. Do you think that stops me from wearing my buckle? 

[Ramblin Gambler]

I wasn't there, but reading the minutes, the dismissive comment that "that's a 1 percent problem" seemed kind of rude. 

 

I shot at a club that had a 'top gun' category.  Didn't make sense to me, but there were more top guns that day than gunfighters. 

 

Now, if there are different rules it would make sense.  For instance being able to change shooting styles or modify your guns beyond what we can do now. 

[Patagonia Pete]

Isn't he really simply proposing the ability to shoot the match in "no category" … the ability to appear only in "Overall" results.

 

The "no category" shooter could only win the match "Overall" if they were indeed the fastest shooter participating in the match.

 

This shooter is only interested in their performance "Overall" and not really interested in participating in a category.

 

How many top shooters sign up for a match and wonder if they should sign up in ES/SS/S/49er/Wrangler etc …. and how many will complain … because they are a "top" shooter and now locking up a category. Causing many to scramble to pick another category ... and MD's a headache of constant category change requests.

 

Used to be they would sign up in Traditional (or Modern) which became "Cowboy" … any age shoot what you want. Then a bunch of people started to imply that was a bad thing because more experienced shooters were sitting on young people and "Cowboy" was the only place new/young people had to go.

 

All of the sudden you were a "bad" person if you didn't shoot in "YOUR" particular age slot … sigh … and that effectively killed off the "catch all / open" category.

 

Now … there is nowhere to go to just shoot for overall results with anybody who wants to throw in … You pick a category slot to p… someone off or the catch all category (Cowboy) to p… someone off (now that the name change has caused it to be embraced as the protected category of new shooters).

 

Perhaps he should have just asked for shooters to have to ability to shoot a match "NC" no category and it would have been better understood.

Of course ... I am making a big assumption here that is what he really wanted. 

 

Just sayin' …

[Totes Magoats]

20 hours ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

The rationale offered was that doing so would take some of the top shooters out of the other categories and allow competitors who would typically not win their category the opportunity of doing so. 

 

 

I just don't get it...

 

We want to make room in categories so shooters that normally don't win, will win.  Yet, at large matches we make shooters move to other categories if we can't get enough shooters in that category to meet the minimum number.

 

So, let's say at a Regional or State level match, 5 ladies sign up for Lady Gunfighter.  With the new Open category, 3 of them go to Ladies Open to try for the 'big' prize.  Lady Gunfighter is removed (since we need 3 to make a category), and you have 2 ladies that are forced into B-Western or Lady duelist and they have not practiced that style at all during the year or don't have the costume requirements.  Now we have no State/regional level Ladies Gunfighter champ because of it.  

 

Next year, a lady that was contempating moving to Lady Gunfighter would say 'Why?' if they won't have that category at the Regional/State match.  Kinda kills the category...

 

What did we accomplish here?  How many rules do we need to change to hand out a few more buckles?

 

Totes

 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

PLUS ONE to Rye Miles.

 

Unless B Westerns, Saturday matinees, Westerns on TV, that kids will take interest in, rather than a game controller, Our game will slowly wither from the vine.  Adding some Silly "Open Cattle Gory" won't make spit worth of difference.  And, if your already Over 50, Over Weight, and under financed, you ain't gonna win no Buckle.  Get over it.

[Patagonia Pete]

34 minutes ago, Totes Magoats said:

I just don't get it...

> snip <

So, let's say at a Regional or State level match, 5 ladies sign up for Lady Gunfighter.  With the new Open category, 3 of them go to Ladies Open to try for the 'big' prize.

> snip <

Totes

 

I think you hit the "misunderstanding" on the head ...

The top overall shooter "IS" the top overall shooter whether you are shooting in a category or not.

You don't have to sign up in this "No" category to be able to go for "Top Overall" ... If you are the fastest woman shooter you are the faster woman shooter no matter if you did it as a Lady Gunfighter or a Non-Category shooter.

 

Everyone is shooting for "Top Overall" in any category from Cowboy/LadyCowboy on up ... he is just asking to be able to participate w/o having to be in a particular category.

 

Isn't the reason we have so many categories now just to spread out the top shooters??

[COLORADO JACKSON]

One thing this sport does not need is more categories!

[Shooting Bull]

There seems to be a universal mischaracterization of the argument AGAINST this. 

 

Here's the scenario:  The top three Cowboys pull out of that category in order to shoot the "overall" category.  The top two B-Western shooters do the same. The top two Gunfighters do the same as does one young Duelist whose name I probably don't need to mention.  All of the shooters are at the match.  They're not sick, they're not in a different state, the only reason in the world they're not competing in their category is that they pulled out in order to shoot in the "overall" category.  Let's assume all these shooters shoot the way they normally would and their times reflect that. That means the person who SHOULD place forth in Cowboy is the winner, the third place B-Western shooter gets that buckle, the 3rd place Gunfighter gets his trophy and I get denied the pleasure of once again getting my butt kicked by Pecos Nick.  That means my "victory" is no such thing. I didn't win Duelist because I didn't beat the best Duelist at the match.

 

The only thing this idea would do is water down the competition.  That's NOT the way to bring in more members.

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

7 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

There seems to be a universal mischaracterization of the argument AGAINST this. 

 

Here's the scenario:  The top three Cowboys pull out of that category in order to shoot the "overall" category.  The top two B-Western shooters do the same. The top two Gunfighters do the same as does one young Duelist whose name I probably don't need to mention.  All of the shooters are at the match.  They're not sick, they're not in a different state, the only reason in the world they're not competing in their category is that they pulled out in order to shoot in the "overall" category.  Let's assume all these shooters shoot the way they normally would and their times reflect that. That means the person who SHOULD place forth in Cowboy is the winner, the third place B-Western shooter gets that buckle, the 3rd place Gunfighter gets his trophy and I get denied the pleasure of once again getting my butt kicked by Pecos Nick.  That means my "victory" is no such thing. I didn't win Duelist because I didn't beat the best Duelist at the match.

 

The only thing this idea would do is water down the competition.  That's NOT the way to bring in more members.

While I agree that it likely would have no effect on membership, I think your logic is flawed a bit. I do see where you are coming from in a way, but if a guy moves from cowboy, up to wrangler or from duelist up to senior duelist and wins a match overall, does that mean the person who won his “old” category, didn’t really win it? If the open category was truly an open category, it would have a different set of rules than all the others and that would make this argument against it moot. 

[Shooting Bull]

15 minutes ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

While I agree that it likely would have no effect on membership, I think your logic is flawed a bit. I do see where you are coming from in a way, but if a guy moves from cowboy, up to wrangler or from duelist up to senior duelist and wins a match overall, does that mean the person who won his “old” category, didn’t really win it? If the open category was truly an open category, it would have a different set of rules than all the others and that would make this argument against it moot. 

 

I thought about that exact scenario and if I'm understanding the proposal correctly it's an apples to oranges comparison.  Switching between the existing categories as in your examples is for the purpose of variety (giving black powder a try or trying my hand at Gunfighter) or moving into the category appropriate to your age.  In those cases the competitors are moving because they want to move.  Under the proposal they're moving simply to give somebody else a chance to win their normally chosen category.

[Totes Magoats]

So, what if....

 

We get the Open Category and only 1 or 2 choose to shoot it since those top shooters scare off everyone else from entering?  Do we say "sorry, takes 3 to make a category" and have no overall State Champion?

 

My tongue in only partially in my cheek...

 

Totes

[Shooting Bull]

On a completely different note, why would I move?  Let's say for instance I was actually a GOOD Duelist.  Let's take it one step further and suppose I was a good enough Duelist to win that category at Winter Range or EOT.  Let's take it to the ultimate level and fantasize about me being such a good Duelist I could compete for the overall title at those matches.  (Yes, I'm very well aware that person already exists.  No need to rub it in.  )  Then I get approached by SASS and they make me an offer.  "Hey, you're such a good Duelist none of the other Duelists really have a chance of beating you.  How's about you move over into this new category we just invented call "overall" so as to give those other fellers a chance to win? You'll still be shooting Duelist but not in that category.  If you win the overall title, great.  If you don't, oh well.  You beat all the other Duelists at the match but we're not going to acknowledge that because you weren't in that category.  Doesn't that sound great?"

[Ramblin Gambler]

That's why it makes no sense to me unless there are different rules.  You'd probably have to let them alter their firearms more than the rest of us to make it worthwhile.  Between the WB, ROC, and TGs (who I think would all have to approve something like that), I doubt it'll get much traction. 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

2 minutes ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

That's why it makes no sense to me unless there are different rules.  You'd probably have to let them alter their firearms more than the rest of us to make it worthwhile.  Between the WB, ROC, and TGs (who I think would all have to approve something like that), I doubt it'll get much traction. 

 

I don't see where allowing "special" modifications for one (or would it be two if a corresponding "Ladies" category is considered?) category is being proposed.

IMO...A true "Open" cat would basically be "Cowboy" with GF shooting style allowed. 

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

11 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

I don't see where allowing "special" modifications for one (or would it be two if a corresponding "Ladies" category is considered?) category is being proposed.

IMO...A true "Open" cat would basically be "Cowboy" with GF shooting style allowed. 

I think that would make the most sense. A category where someone could shoot any stage using any shooting style they wanted.

[Goody, SASS #26190]

1 minute ago, Redwood Kid said:

I think that would make the most sense. A category where someone could shoot any stage using any shooting style they wanted.

 

Which is exactly what I said in the OP.

 

[Shooting Bull]

I've already asked my first question, here's the second.  Would shooters not in the "overall" category be in the running for top overall shooter of the match? If not, then how would you explain one of them not getting the award if they happen to earn it?

[Patagonia Pete]

Stop!! 

No one said anything about an Overall category that you had to be in … in order to be able to win Overall in a match …

 

The proposal was for an open category …  

 

I shoot at several clubs where they use a category of "Shootist" for this purpose. All now however treat it as an actual category and include "Shootist" results just like any other … but it still provides a slot for people not interested in any of the regular SASS categories.

 

Cowboy "IS" the real Open category but now … in practice is looked upon more as an age category before Wrangler.

Now … you are a bad person if you are over 35 and shoot in that category. Soooooo .. I think all he is asking for is to have a real Open category back again.

 

If it is tracked only in Overall results … (no category results postings) … fine … who cares.

 

Call it Shootist … everyone else does ...

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

29 minutes ago, Patagonia Pete said:

....

Now … you are a bad person if you are over 35 and shoot in that category. Soooooo .. I think all he is asking for is to have a real Open category back again.

 I know quite a few "over-35" Cowboys & Cowgirls (and friends of theirs) who might dispute that statement. 

...

 

[Patagonia Pete]

3 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Patagonia Pete said: Now … you are a bad person if you are over 35 and shoot in that category. 

I know quite a few "over-35" Cowboys & Cowgirls (and friends of theirs) who might dispute that statement. 

Well I'm glad to hear that ...  I have disputed it myself ... AND ... 

That is how it should be as Cowboy "IS" the "any age" category derived from the combination of Traditional and Modern.

[Black Mike]

Not worth a damn but my thoughts. New categories are fine if enough shooters, Like outlaw or steam punk are fine.  But I will say that the awards ceremonies are becoming painful.  

 

The idea that if you are a good shooter and you win too much that you must stand down or move out of your category is just something I don't agree with. 

 

When end I started I shot senior, smokeless, two handed. When I got to silver senior I thought well now I can do better. NOT!  These old guys can shoot!  In a recent move I burned all of my eighth place, fifth, third and other plaques in the outdoor fireplace. They mean nothing to me. Save the money and put it toward expanding our sport. 

 

Now I shoot FCD. I like to make smoke and fire and I wanted to shoot better with one hand. My last two local shoots I took first place, big deal, I was the only one. Got the certificates to prove it. 

 

I did win first place in two state level shoots, one had five shooters, the other had eight. That was cool. Felt good. 

 

Now, there is this one guy, a friend that I shoot against in  the northeast quite often.  I have not been able to beat him, ever. I thought about having his knee busted after watching that Olympic skating movie, but he could still beat me. Instead of wanting him to go away, I analyze every shoot. If I could take six seconds off every stage on average I could beat him once in a while. Basically if we have a 10-10-4 stage and I can shoot 24 seconds consistently, I can beat him. So.........that is my goal. So far I have knocked two seconds on average off my stages and if I can avoid malfunctions and other train wrecks I will win, eventually.

 

Every local shoot I work hard to increase my speed, and work on transitions and fundamentals. 

 

When I do beat my good friend, I know I will have earned it. And if he doesn't show or have a train wreck or two that's ok too. Don't make him leave so I can have a turn. 

 

When  I look at who's coming lists at every shoot I can almost predict the results. The good shooters have earned their place, until we can beat them, they belong there. 

 

 

 

[Yul Lose]

1 hour ago, Black Mike said:

Not worth a damn but my thoughts. New categories are fine if enough shooters, Like outlaw or steam punk are fine.  But I will say that the awards ceremonies are becoming painful.  

 

The idea that if you are a good shooter and you win too much that you must stand down or move out of your category is just something I don't agree with. 

 

When end I started I shot senior, smokeless, two handed. When I got to silver senior I thought well now I can do better. NOT!  These old guys can shoot!  In a recent move I burned all of my eighth place, fifth, third and other plaques in the outdoor fireplace. They mean nothing to me. Save the money and put it toward expanding our sport. 

 

Now I shoot FCD. I like to make smoke and fire and I wanted to shoot better with one hand. My last two local shoots I took first place, big deal, I was the only one. Got the certificates to prove it. 

 

I did win first place in two state level shoots, one had five shooters, the other had eight. That was cool. Felt good. 

 

Now, there is this one guy, a friend that I shoot against in  the northeast quite often.  I have not been able to beat him, ever. I thought about having his knee busted after watching that Olympic skating movie, but he could still beat me. Instead of wanting him to go away, I analyze every shoot. If I could take six seconds off every stage on average I could beat him once in a while. Basically if we have a 10-10-4 stage and I can shoot 24 seconds consistently, I can beat him. So.........that is my goal. So far I have knocked two seconds on average off my stages and if I can avoid malfunctions and other train wrecks I will win, eventually.

 

Every local shoot I work hard to increase my speed, and work on transitions and fundamentals. 

 

When I do beat my good friend, I know I will have earned it. And if he doesn't show or have a train wreck or two that's ok too. Don't make him leave so I can have a turn. 

 

When  I look at who's coming lists at every shoot I can almost predict the results. The good shooters have earned their place, until we can beat them, they belong there. 

 

 

 

Very well said.

[Hoss]

How about an EOT “Invitational” catagory. Those who won their catagory in state or regional match would be invited to shoot in “Elite” catagory. Any shooting style, ok to mix and match. Shooters could of course choose to shoot in their regular catagory. 

[Jimmy Reb, SASS #54804]

I think that would make the most sense. A category where someone could shoot any stage using any shooting style they wanted.

That already avail. It is called B-Western.

[Goody, SASS #26190]

40 minutes ago, Jimmy Reb, SASS #54804 said:

I think that would make the most sense. A category where someone could shoot any stage using any shooting style they wanted.

That already avail. It is called B-Western.

 

With costume, gun and leather restrictions.