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Dungannon Gunner

Safety question. Loss of a required safety item

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The stage is set. Shooter, Spotters and RO at the ready. Pistols first 10 rounds, then Rifle 9 rounds and then 4 Shotgun. Shooter starts with hitting all 10 pistol targets and moves to rifle and after the fifth round his safety glasses fall to the ground. Without retrieving his glasses he continues and completes the stage with NO misses. At no time was a ceasefire called. What, if anything should the RO and or spotters done.

 

Same as above except substitute the word glasses with ear plug.

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Let the shooter finish, no call.

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Stop the shooter-Eyesight protection is far more valuable, than any stage score/time in this shooting game.

Eye protection is mandatory, as page 2 of the rule book sez....

Ear plugs are not mandatory.

OLG

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Safety Glasses -Stop em.  As stated, eye sight far more important.  My wife, Smokin' Limey, had lead sliver hit and stick just below her glasses.  Granted, she was on the unloading table, but could easily have been while she was shooting.

 

Ear Plugs - Let them finish.  Yes, hearing is important, but not instantly damaging as lack of eye protection.

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Stop the shooter, offer reshoot.

Cant replace vision.

 

Imis

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Ear plugs is their call and I won’t stop a shooter for that. 

 

Eye protection is mandatory and and I will stop the shooter and allow them to safely correct the situation on the clock or take missed for any unfired rounds. Their choice. 

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The TO should have been calling a CEASE FIRE.........................!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At this point the TO has no idea of why the glasses came off..... Broken, recoil knocked them off, etc.

 

The shooter should  clear and ground all firearms at the Timing Officers direction.

 

The shooter can then retrieve his safety glasses and go to the unloading table to show clear.

 

Reshoot is in order.................................. All safety penalties are carried forward.

 

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37 minutes ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

The TO should have been calling a CEASE FIRE.........................!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At this point the TO has no idea of why the glasses came off..... Broken, recoil knocked them off, etc.

 

The shooter should  clear and ground all firearms at the Timing Officers direction.

 

The shooter can then retrieve his safety glasses and go to the unloading table to show clear.

 

Reshoot is in order.................................. All safety penalties are carried forward.

 

Can you please show me where failure of a shooters equipment warrants a reshoot? 

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43 minutes ago, Smokestack said:

Ear plugs is their call and I won’t stop a shooter for that. 

 

Eye protection is mandatory and and I will stop the shooter and allow them to safely correct the situation on the clock or take missed for any unfired rounds. Their choice. 

EYE & EAR PROTECTION

Hearing protection is highly recommended and eye protection is mandatory in and around

the shooting areas. While small, period glasses may look great, full protection/high impact

glasses are strongly recommended. Such protection is recommended for everyone when in

the range area, however eye protection is mandatory for spectators when within direct line

of sight of steel targets. SHB pg 2

 

Safety Officers/Chief Range Officers CRO (Timer Operator TO)

The role of the Chief Range Officer/Timer Operator (CRO/TO) is to safely assist the shooter

through the course of fire. Coaching and constraining the shooter from unsafe acts are

expected when appropriate, minimizing procedural and safety penalties whenever possible.

Proper coaching or no coaching at all is NOT considered RO interference and will never be

grounds for a reshoot. SHB pg 18

 

I would agree with smokestack

Regards

 

:FlagAm: :FlagAm: :FlagAm:

 

Gateway Kid

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12 minutes ago, Smokestack said:

Can you please show me where failure of a shooters equipment warrants a reshoot? 

Can you show me a penalty for shooting without safety glasses?

 

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2 minutes ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

Can you show me a penalty for shooting without safety glasses?

 

Unsafe gun handling. SDQ

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While I agree that safety glasses are mandatory, I disagree with stopping the shooter in the middle of his run. Maybe I'm wrong but I see nothing that says you have to stop him! 

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Some of the responses here are honestly pretty shocking. Nobody’s score at any event is worth more than their safety. EVER. 

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I go with the "Stop Shooting" crowd.

I had a friend lose an eye in a freak accident, when a pellet from a skeet shot ricocheted off a skeet into his left eye, blinding it.

Scenario: Skeet thrower was broken, so he went behind the berm at the informal range he was at and they were throwing birds into the air by hand, from behind the berm. He looked up and took a pellet in his left eye.

Freaky things happen.

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You can stand with a wooden leg, but you can't see with a wooden eye.

 

Stop 'em.

 

 

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It is mandatory that the shooter wear safety glasses at all times on the range.

No shooter will be allowed to continue with any activity on the range if safety glasses are removed for any reason.

The proper command for all shooters on the firing line is to CEASE FIRE if shooting glasses happen to be dislodged. Shooters on adjacent bays can just as easily send a piece of lead at the the unlucky shooters eye just as well as the shooter himself.

Pieces of gravel and even hunks of lead have been know to bounce over a berm.

 

Stop shooting......... Fix the safety problem......... Then everyone gets to start over again.

We are also assuming that this is a RARE instance and doesn't happen just because the shooter was having a bad stage.

And it doesn't matter who doesn't have their glasses on. I would make the same call if I saw someone on the posse without their glasses in place.

 

 

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SHB page 18 “Cease Fire” or “STOP!” – The command called out by the CRO/TO or any witnessing Range Officer/Match Official at any time an unsafe condition develops.

 

SHB page 18 "Proper coaching or no coaching at all is NOT considered RO interference and will never be grounds for a reshoot."

 

Stopping the shooter due to a missing mandatory safety item is proper coaching and therefore not grounds for a reshoot.

 

If a shooter has a squib (equipment failure) the appropriate response is the command "Stop".  No reshoot is available if it was in fact a squib.  

 

Here I would do as Smokestack said, call a ceasefire and let the shooter remedy the situation on the clock.

 

If a reshoot were allowed in this situation I predict you would get an uptick in 'dropped glasses' when something else went wrong on the stage.

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Bad decisions by the shooter and T.O.

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I agree with smokestack, eyes are way more important than a score anytime. 

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I have a two fold answer,,, there are some shooters who will find a reason for a reshoot,, running into TO and such..   with that said,  If, IF, I thought the shooter lost his glasses on purpose, I would make them stop, retrieve glasses and continue....  IF the shooter merely lost his glasses or they broke, immediate stoppage of the stage,  and reshoot

and yes, I'd do the same for earplugs... flame away but hearing loss is permanent....  ijafg!!

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16 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

SHB page 18 “Cease Fire” or “STOP!” – The command called out by the CRO/TO or any witnessing Range Officer/Match Official at any time an unsafe condition develops.

 

SHB page 18 "Proper coaching or no coaching at all is NOT considered RO interference and will never be grounds for a reshoot."

 

Stopping the shooter due to a missing mandatory safety item is proper coaching and therefore not grounds for a reshoot.

 

If a shooter has a squib (equipment failure) the appropriate response is the command "Stop".  No reshoot is available if it was in fact a squib.  

 

Here I would do as Smokestack said, call a ceasefire and let the shooter remedy the situation on the clock.

 

If a reshoot were allowed in this situation I predict you would get an uptick in 'dropped glasses' when something else went wrong on the stage.

 

Looking at this with 100% objectivity I 100% agree with 100% of this post. Problem is, I can’t remain 100% objective. Not granting a reshoot SEEMS to be rather hardassish. Not saying it’s wrong, just doesn’t seem right. 

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7 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

Looking at this with 100% objectivity I 100% agree with 100% of this post. Problem is, I can’t remain 100% objective. Not granting a reshoot SEEMS to be rather hardassish. Not saying it’s wrong, just doesn’t seem right. 

I understand, but, I've pointed to the rules that govern my decision.  One of those rules states that proper coaching will never be grounds for a reshoot.  Is stopping a shooter who has lost his safety glasses proper coaching?

 

Where is the rule that says a malfunctioning safety device is grounds for a reshoot?

 

If we're responsible for making sure our guns and ammo are in proper working order what about our glasses?

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No argument from me whatsoever. It’s just another one of those calls I’d have to make but would feel horrible about. That’s why us TO’s get paid the big bucks, right? 

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1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

SHB page 18 “Cease Fire” or “STOP!” – The command called out by the CRO/TO or any witnessing Range Officer/Match Official at any time an unsafe condition develops.

 

SHB page 18 "Proper coaching or no coaching at all is NOT considered RO interference and will never be grounds for a reshoot."

 

Stopping the shooter due to a missing mandatory safety item is proper coaching and therefore not grounds for a reshoot.

 

If a shooter has a squib (equipment failure) the appropriate response is the command "Stop".  No reshoot is available if it was in fact a squib.  

 

Here I would do as Smokestack said, call a ceasefire and let the shooter remedy the situation on the clock.

 

If a reshoot were allowed in this situation I predict you would get an uptick in 'dropped glasses' when something else went wrong on the stage.

 

Why would calling a Cease Fire for safety be considered coaching? The TO is not coaching the shooter, the TO is reacting to an unsafe condition. I see a distinct difference.

 

What if the TO is not the one to call a Cease Fire? Anyone can call a Cease Fire due to an unsafe situation real or perceived. If I lost my Safety Glasses in the middle of a stage I would call a Cease Fire if the TO didn't. Eyesight is that important to me.

 

Thinking about it I cannot imagine a situation where in coaching a shooter a cease fire would be called. 

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1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I followed the link and saw PWB’s opinion but I didn’t see a ruling by the ROC.

We talked about it again a year after that...

 

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here's my take,,,, ijafg,,,,,,,,   If I'm the TO,,, I WILL stop the shooter and handle in the ways I spoke of above,, if a match director doesn't like it, I'll pick brass,,  and even then I'd find a way to stop a shooter in an unsafe situation, period...  sort it out later

 

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Several people have commented in the earlier threads and this thread about a shooter intentionally knocking their glasses off to earn a reshoot due to having a bad stage. IMNSHO any shooter observed doing so has earned themselves a SOG penality at a minimum. I would even consider a MDQ for cheating.

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The question has been taken to the ROC for a FINAL consensus ruling/clarification.

The results will be posted on this thread (as well as on the TG & Instructor Wires) ASAP.

 

Please STAND BY.

 

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Quote

Where is the rule that says a malfunctioning safety device is grounds for a reshoot?

 

In the RO III manual, in BIG LETTERS.

 

No trophy is worth loosing eye sight over.

IMHO, stop the shooter, get them back to safe condition and let them have a reshoot.  

 

Good luck, GJ

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There should be a CEASE FIRE on the firing line if ANYONE is without shooting glasses.

 

I think I have been hit in the face by splatter from adjacent bays more than from the bay I was on.

  

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8 minutes ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

There should be a CEASE FIRE on the firing line if ANYONE is without shooting glasses.

 

I think I have been hit in the face by splatter from adjacent bays more than from the bay I was on.

  

i would agree, in theory, with that, but in that case shooter would have to be given a re-shoot.

 

In the OP, and waiting on PWB/ROC final determination, I would stop shooter and give a re-shoot. if I felt that shooter intentionally knocked them off I would tell him so, with warning. 

 

If I was the rules czar, I would have TO call cease fire and give the re-shoot, but call it an MSV so that nobody would likely do it just to re-shoot a bad stage, as safety penalties would carry forward. I'm looking forward to seeing the official ROC guidance on this one. 

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