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Dungannon Gunner

Safety question. Loss of a required safety item

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Progress report:

The proposed clarification presented to the ROC for consideration is based primarily on the application of current rules and practices.

Input from some of the respondents to the OP is being taken under advisement.

So far, half of the ROC members have voted and are in agreement on the issue.

 

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Safety first.  Discuss scoring later.

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I’m in absolute shock that ANYONE would knock off their safety glasses in order to get a reshoot - forget the possibility of losing one’s eyesight... the loss of one’s integrity is almost as severe.  I do know folks cheat - I’ve seen it and it disappoints me greatly... it’s not often, that I’ve witnessed, that it happens at all is disappointing.  

 

Hugs!

Scarlett

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Well, I would say the following.  One you can attend another match, you can reshoot a stage, you can lose the time, but the one thing that you can not do is replace an eye that has lost its sight.  Safety is the number one issue, should always be, had always been, and can not be replaced with that which comes out of the south end of a bull facing north.  If the TO, spotters, or others on the stage see a safe issue, call it!  They can cuss me, spit on me, treat me with spite, yell I don't know anything, but at the end of the day, everyone goes home with both eyes working.  I would rather lose every match, every stage, then have someone lose an eye.  Can I get an Amen?

 

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9 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I’m in absolute shock that ANYONE would knock off their safety glasses in order to get a reshoot - forget the possibility of losing one’s eyesight... the loss of one’s integrity is almost as severe.  I do know folks cheat - I’ve seen it and it disappoints me greatly... it’s not often, that I’ve witnessed, that it happens at all is disappointing.  

 

Hugs!

Scarlett

 

Miss Scarlett,

 

Never fear for the Lord our God does not sleep.  Cheaters only win in their mind.  Sure they appear here to win, but in the end they lose.  I would rather loss fair and square than cheat to win.  When you cheat, you have not won anything worth having.

 

WD

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Am I missing something??  Nowhere in the OP was it said or implied that the shooter intentionally lost or dropped the required protection, so the cheating thing should not have arisen. If no call was made, (I know this is a hypothetical) then there should be no discussion of any penalty to the shooter. 

 

As a retrospective conversation as to what should have been done,. then most logically, the shooter should be stopped for safety's sake!  Whether or not a reshoot would or should be offered is the only thin that should be in question here. The proper application and retention of safety equipment is, and should be the responsibility of the shooter, the same as knowing the stage sequence and the rules of the game!!   STILL, I could and would agree that an offer of a re-shoot wouldn't be unfair to anyone.

 

PaleWolf!!  We await your determination!!!

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33 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

Am I missing something??  Nowhere in the OP was it said or implied that the shooter intentionally lost or dropped the required protection, so the cheating thing should not have arisen. If no call was made, (I know this is a hypothetical) then there should be no discussion of any penalty to the shooter. 

 

As a retrospective conversation as to what should have been done,. then most logically, the shooter should be stopped for safety's sake!  Whether or not a reshoot would or should be offered is the only thin that should be in question here. The proper application and retention of safety equipment is, and should be the responsibility of the shooter, the same as knowing the stage sequence and the rules of the game!!   STILL, I could and would agree that an offer of a re-shoot wouldn't be unfair to anyone.

 

PaleWolf!!  We await your determination!!!

I agree, stop the shooter, the only question then is fix the problem on the clock or reshoot.

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If I'm TO, I'm stopping him/her.  

 

Three months from now when s/he is trying to read and can't + the seeing eye dog just pooped on the carpet the score is not going to seem so important

 

 

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Line on the pocket RO card “failure of shooter equipment or firearms may be granted at the discretion of the Match Director( except at an annual, state/ regional championship or above). Safety penalties carry forward......

 

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59 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

Am I missing something??  Nowhere in the OP was it said or implied that the shooter intentionally lost or dropped the required protection, so the cheating thing should not have arisen. If no call was made, (I know this is a hypothetical) then there should be no discussion of any penalty to the shooter. 

 

As a retrospective conversation as to what should have been done,. then most logically, the shooter should be stopped for safety's sake!  Whether or not a reshoot would or should be offered is the only thin that should be in question here. The proper application and retention of safety equipment is, and should be the responsibility of the shooter, the same as knowing the stage sequence and the rules of the game!!   STILL, I could and would agree that an offer of a re-shoot wouldn't be unfair to anyone.

 

PaleWolf!!  We await your determination!!!

I think the reason the cheating was brought up was due that it's possible someone could knock their glasses off purposely after having a bad sequence in that run.  Not trying to argue, just clarifying.  I agree with the rest of your statement. 

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In my opinion, I don’t see my glasses breaking as any different than my rifle breaking. It’s my responsibility as a competitor to keep both in good repair. If I fail to do that, then the penalties I’ve earned should be mine. If we are going to give reshoots for broken or dislodged glasses, we may as well start giving them when a gun jams, or goes down. 

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The Range Operations Committee members have come to a consensus on this issue with no dissenting votes.

This will be cross-posted the TG & Instructor Wires:

 

1) Shooter must STOP (or be stopped) immediately due to the seriousness of the SAFETY issue involved.

This would NOT constitute "RO impeding/interference" in handling a shooter's equipment failure;

therefore there would be NO GROUNDS for a restart/reshoot.

Precedent exists regarding the handling of a suspected "squib" during stage engagement.

 

2) If the shooter is able to remedy the issue SAFELY, s/he may continue the stage after resolution.

An RO should be allowed to "safely assist" the shooter in this case (e.g. retrieve & return dropped safety glasses to the shooter if the shooter has a cocked firearm in hand)

 

3) If the shooter is unable to SAFELY resolve the situation (e.g. glasses are broken or end up ahead of an active firing line), the shooter would receive a DNF due to inability to continue and complete the stage.

 

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5 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

The Range Operations Committee members have come to a consensus on this issue with no dissenting votes.

This will be cross-posted the TG & Instructor Wires:

 

1) Shooter must STOP (or be stopped) immediately due to the seriousness of the SAFETY issue involved.

This would NOT constitute "RO impeding/interference" in handling a shooter's equipment failure;

therefore there would be NO GROUNDS for a restart/reshoot.

Precedent exists regarding the handling of a suspected "squib" during stage engagement.

 

2) If the shooter is able to remedy the issue SAFELY, s/he may continue the stage after resolution.

An RO should be allowed to "safely assist" the shooter in this case (e.g. retrieve & return dropped safety glasses to the shooter if the shooter has a cocked firearm in hand)

 

3) If the shooter is unable to SAFELY resolve the situation (e.g. glasses are broken or end up ahead of an active firing line), the shooter would receive a DNF due to inability to continue and complete the stage.

 

Not arguing the decision, but why a DNF instead of just taking missed for any unfired rounds?

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On 3/18/2018 at 6:23 PM, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Let the shooter finish, no call.

I stand corrected, good to know what to do! Thanks PWB!!;)

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6 minutes ago, Smokestack said:

Not arguing the decision, but why a DNF instead of just taking missed for any unfired rounds?


Under current rules:

Quote

  The score for a DNF (not finishing a stage) is the same as a Stage Disqualification penalty — the maximum allowed time for that stage.

 

SHB p.24

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2 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:


Under current rules:

SHB p.24

Ok...but this would not apply in the case of a broken gun or squib correct?

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Just now, Smokestack said:

Ok...but this would not apply in the case of a broken gun or squib correct?

 

If it was NOT the last firearm used on the stage, and the shooter chose to stop with functional firearms available, the DNF would certainly apply.

The procedure for handling a firearm or ammunition malfunction is to "make safe" and continue with the stage.

REF: RO2 p.8

The ROC applied existing/current rules in making the decision regarding failure of the shooter's mandatory safety equipment.

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cool,,, now, it is "written"!

 

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Thank you for the clear and solid ruling on this safety issue.

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I hate to throw in a wrinkle at this stage of the discussion, but,  WHAT IF the failure was the result of a bullet bounce back from a stage to one side that actually broke the glasses or frame?

 

I'm guessing nothing changes.  But I had to ask.  I think the DNF is a bit harsh but my opinion doesn't count in this.

 

Angus

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I am surprised by the wide variance in the rules concerning safety for the past several years.

I'm glad they have changed somewhat though.

For example, we were once banned from picking up a round that hit a table - because we MIGHT break the 170. 

(I thought that was going too far, so I'm glad it was finally changed.)

 

Now, when you drop your glasses and you are likely holding a gun.  Stop and make it right.  Let's see that in action. 

The shooter is probably a bit flustered at this point.  That is a good start...

  • So fire your cocked gun, then set it down. Oh wait, you can't do that because you shouldn't shoot without classes. 
  • So set down your cocked gun?
  • Lean over and get your glasses (or have the someone else do that). 
  • Now can you safely put on your glasses (while holding a gun?)
  • Most folks need to use two hands to put the glasses on fully, but some probably can do it with one hand while holding their gun...  
  • Don't break the 170
  • Now there are many that actually need glasses to see, so they probably cannot find their glasses so this would be a significant handicap for those poor suckers

Maybe we could add a flow chart for people to follow in this case as it seems to get a bit complicated.  :D

  •  Stop
  • If gun is cocked, discuss options with TO
  • Stage or holster all guns
  • Acquire glasses
  • If necessary, clean off glasses
  • Put on glasses
  • Try to remember the stage
  • Finish the stage

 

I see a great potential for major safety issues while applying this ruling. 

 

If we are not going to stop and allow a reshoot (my preference),

then I thing we should just call a DNF right at the instant of lost glasses and be done with it. 

Doing anything else is getting a bit risky to me.

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while totally agreeing that a shooter should not be shooting without glasses, I think a DNF is too harsh, should be just the misses if he can't safely correct the situation on the line. 

 

if its totally not his fault (maybe TO or spotters glasses came off???) he should definitely get a  re-shoot.

 

All this being said, in 5+ years of shooting CAS I've never seen safety glasses fall off while a shooter was shooting/ Has anybody? 

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15 minutes ago, Hoss said:

while totally agreeing that a shooter should not be shooting without glasses, I think a DNF is too harsh, should be just the misses if he can't safely correct the situation on the line. 

 

if its totally not his fault (maybe TO or spotters glasses came off???) he should definitely get a  re-shoot.

 

All this being said, in 5+ years of shooting CAS I've never seen safety glasses fall off while a shooter was shooting/ Has anybody? 

I have. It was an 8 year old kid. He stopped himself and safely put them back on. It really is possible folks. 

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Great ruling!!!

 

I quit another shooting another sport due to intentional safety situations in order to get a stage reshoot, among other cheating scenarios.

 

SASS is my permanent home!!!

 

Amarillo Rattler

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2 hours ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

I am surprised by the wide variance in the rules concerning safety for the past several years.

I'm glad they have changed somewhat though.

For example, we were once banned from picking up a round that hit a table - because we MIGHT break the 170. 

(I thought that was going too far, so I'm glad it was finally changed.)

 

Now, when you drop your glasses and you are likely holding a gun.  Stop and make it right.  Let's see that in action. 

The shooter is probably a bit flustered at this point.  That is a good start...

  • So fire your cocked gun, then set it down. Oh wait, you can't do that because you shouldn't shoot without classes. 
  • So set down your cocked gun?
  • Lean over and get your glasses (or have the someone else do that). 
  • Now can you safely put on your glasses (while holding a gun?)
  • Most folks need to use two hands to put the glasses on fully, but some probably can do it with one hand while holding their gun...  
  • Don't break the 170
  • Now there are many that actually need glasses to see, so they probably cannot find their glasses so this would be a significant handicap for those poor suckers

Maybe we could add a flow chart for people to follow in this case as it seems to get a bit complicated.  :D

  •  Stop
  • If gun is cocked, discuss options with TO
  • Stage or holster all guns
  • Acquire glasses
  • If necessary, clean off glasses
  • Put on glasses
  • Try to remember the stage
  • Finish the stage

 

I see a great potential for major safety issues while applying this ruling. 

 

If we are not going to stop and allow a reshoot (my preference),

then I thing we should just call a DNF right at the instant of lost glasses and be done with it. 

Doing anything else is getting a bit risky to me.

Here's what the ROC ruled

2) If the shooter is able to remedy the issue SAFELY, s/he may continue the stage after resolution.

An RO should be allowed to "safely assist" the shooter in this case (e.g. retrieve & return dropped safety glasses to the shooter if the shooter has a cocked firearm in hand)

Note: It talks to the cocked gun in hand questions. The RO should be allowed to "safely assist" the shooter.

The clarification looks good to me. No, it won't cover "but what if the rock was in the north and I was shooting in the south", but it covers most everything else.

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Methinks this will be in discussion for some time.

God help us if the shooter runs into the Timing Operator and his (the shooters) glasses get knocked off and stepped on in the process!

 

If the TO doesn't stop the shooter and he finishes the stage ........... What then?

 

 

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Yeah it seems like it oughta be misses for unfired rounds if you can't continue just like it would be for any other equipment failure.  It's not like you get an advantage from not having to fire those rounds when they're all counted as misses. 

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