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Fairness to Gunfighters


JaySnowden

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....try FCGF on a fast, up close, stand and deliver stage with all the smoke. They hear all the bang and clang and when the smoke clears, the spotters are looking at each other :blink: ! I do alternate cock, it just seems more" fluid" and efficient for me.

 

DB :FlagAm:

I usually shoot the bigger matches with .36 Navy's ........... Frontier GunFighter

 

 

(Cartridges is fer tha long guns ...;) )

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The way the rule is currently written basically says that he who slows down the least without being penalized wins. How slow is enough? This is a racing sport how does one develop muscle memory and try to do their best if they are second guessing themselves as to whether or not they are going to fast? I've watched Jay shoot at four different clubs and seen the differences of the rule interpretation. I've thought about trying gunfighter myself but after watching this I'll hold off until a rule change.

 

A possible solution is to allow that only one gun at a time may be cocked. This would eliminate simultaneous discharge.

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Look at this from another perspective.

 

If a shooter is drawing 2 pistols and firing BOTH pistols at the same time, they are not shooting GF. They are merely discharging 2 pistols at the same time.

 

The Rules and Guidelines clearly define what is GF style shooting.

 

So in order to shoot in the GF category, you have to adhere to the guidelines of shooting GF.

 

Its no different than shooting in Classic Cowboy/Cowgirl. You have to meet certain criteria to do it.

 

Its no different than shooting in a Senior Category. You have to be of a certain age.

 

 

And to shoot in the GF category, you just have to do it within the stated rules and guidelines.

 

To me, its just that simple.

 

Now, as concerning those who think you have to 'slow down' to adhere to those GF rules/guidelines, please let me reassure you that there are a HOST of cowboys who can prove that you don't have to slow down to shoot GF and still be within the rules/guidelines of the category.

 

 

..........Widder

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The rule is to allow counters to

Asses misses

Assess proper round count for each gun was fired (safety)

Hopefully catch squibs etc

Assess proper target sequence when there is one

 

Target size, closeness and even spacing along with even heights / elevations

with regards to target placement, now add in lot of double taps, triple taps and dump stages these days

That allows for some pretty fast pistol shooting for any shooting style hard to count, not just for GFers

 

................And no I am NOT saying to make pistol targets hard...............

just suggesting mixing them up a tad bit besides always set for, super sonic rhythm shooting

 

No cocking of two guns at once would be a fix, that is for sure

If you want to shoot gunfighter and are not, geese give in, have fun and single cock to stay out of trouble

Do NOT miss out on the fun

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The way the rule is currently written basically says that he who slows down the least without being penalized wins. How slow is enough? This is a racing sport how does one develop muscle memory and try to do their best if they are second guessing themselves as to whether or not they are going to fast? I've watched Jay shoot at four different clubs and seen the differences of the rule interpretation. I've thought about trying gunfighter myself but after watching this I'll hold off until a rule change.

 

A possible solution is to allow that only one gun at a time may be cocked. This would eliminate simultaneous discharge.

if you wait for a rule change to shot gunfighter, you my friend are making a big mistake and missing a lot of fun. :D:D

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The way the rule is currently written basically says that he who slows down the least without being penalized wins. How slow is enough? This is a racing sport how does one develop muscle memory and try to do their best if they are second guessing themselves as to whether or not they are going to fast? I've watched Jay shoot at four different clubs and seen the differences of the rule interpretation. I've thought about trying gunfighter myself but after watching this I'll hold off until a rule change.

 

A possible solution is to allow that only one gun at a time may be cocked. This would eliminate simultaneous discharge.

Hi Tracy,

 

It was nice to see you again at the Regional. Your wife is a sweetheart!

 

On the surface your potential solution may seem to have merit. However, most counters are watching the targets and listening to shots fired. They have no idea when the gun is cocked. So, it would be even less enforceable than current rules.

 

If you want to try shooting GF, go for it. If you have questions, Widdowmaker Hill is the man to contact. He's kind and a great GF-style shooter.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

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I double cock, and have no trouble with it at all, I never simo discharge, and have no problems. I may not be the fastest, but I'm far from the slowest. ;)

 

Lets just say, I am fast enough to have the spotters working, and the biggest problem I have encountered, is the spotters being sometimes alittle confused about the sequence because there is no pause between guns like they are used to with single gun shooters! ^_^

 

The last thing we need is another rule!!! -_- Simply award a BIG FAT P for simo discharge of guns PERIOD!!!! <_<

 

 

 

The rule was written to allow for as accurate spotting and scoring as possible for a gunfighter!!!! Not to hinder the speed with which they can shoot a sequence!!!

 

The gunfighter cat. had a tough enough time being made a recognized cat. lets not go down the road of WHAT IS IS???? <_<

 

 

Spades H.

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I personally double cock - it was just an easier way for my brain to manage where I was at with each gun when I started shooting GF. Had nothing to do with trying to shoot both pistols at the same time. As time has gone on, yes it does allow some quick shots on some target scenarios but the rule regarding simultaneous shots is there to manage the situation. I would add a couple of observations to the discussion. First observation, if you think it is that easy to consistently discharge both pistols at the same time and hit the targets then you should try it sometime during a practice session. Some in this conversation make it sound like this is easy to do - there is risk of a miss as well involved for those that would attempt it. A quick peek at the second pistol before shooting is all the delay it takes to keep within the existing rules. Second observation, even the alternating cocking style of GF shooters may have both pistols cocked at times during some shooting sequences. If you want to create an RO challenge, change the rules so you cannot double cock and add the task of making sure a GF never has both pistols cocked at the same time during a pistol shooting sequence - especially for the faster Gfers. I RO on a fairly regular basis and personally I would want no part of that judgment call situation - someone else can take the timer for GFers. The existing rules are sufficient to manage simultaneous shots - enforce them.

 

I am amazed at this continuing discussion on this GF topic and then see folks on the line not sure whether a fast two handed shooter got off 5 shots from a pistol. It has become a speed game regardless of style and it is difficult to keep up at times.

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The existing rules are sufficient to manage simultaneous shots - enforce them.

 

I am amazed at this continuing discussion on this GF topic and then see folks on the line not sure whether a fast two handed shooter got off 5 shots from a pistol. It has become a speed game regardless of style and it is difficult to keep up at times.

Ta Daaaa!! :D

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

 

ps; by the way Tracker Mike is a very fast GFer. Have him on the same posse with RRR and Three Cut, who ya gonna call? :huh: ...Thumb Busters ;):wacko:

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Ta Daaaa!! :D

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

 

ps; by the way Tracker Mike is a very fast GFer. Have him on the same posse with RRR and Three Cut, who ya gonna call? :huh: ...Thumb Busters ;):wacko:

 

JEDI JEFRO,

 

that is funny.....yet oh so true.

 

 

..........Widder

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I have read everything, I agree with everyone, To do or not to do???? Is that the question????? really is it????If you don't like the double discharge don't do it. if it's to hard to spot for a shooter then don't. Sounds like some of you have missed rule # 1 of Cowboy Action Shooting-----------HAVE FUN---------- seems like we have taken some of that away. Before the match explain to the shooter what the penalty is for shooting out of class and If the shooter shoots the stage correctly,hits all the targerts and has a smile on his face after the stage,he is happy and will return to your match. Who knows maybe someday we will have a class called Outlaw !!!!! Rules are simple check out Tn. Tombstones web site. If your club does not like Outlaw I would like to invite You to Comin'At"Cha 2014 and the Intercontiental Outlaw Championship of the World !!!!!!! All Outlaws are on the same posse and we have a posse meeting prior to the match so everyone is on the same page. Try Outlaw shooting You might like it !!!!!!! Put your stick in the mudd and lets have some fun....

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Yup. When I'm a spotter, I always watch the target, but sometimes due to smoke or a split-second distraction, I might not see it. Therefore, unless I'm dead certain that I heard no clang, the benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter.

 

Dead targets dont clang.......just sayin

But meanin

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T-Bone,

 

you bring up a VERY GOOD point when you bring up the OUTLAW category.

 

and that point is: There are RULES to adhere to when shooting even in the OUTLAW category. One of them is that the pistols can't be aimed. There are a couple others.

 

Likewise, there are existing rules and guidelines for ALL categories. And one of those for GF is that the shooter isn't suppose to double discharge.

 

In my short time in SASS/CAS, this has never been interpreted to penalize a GF should an AD coincide with an intentional firing of the other pistol. But rather to keep those 10 shots from sounding like only 5 by double discharging each pair of shots.

 

Thanks for bringing up the OUTLAW category because even the OUTLAWS have some stated rules and guidelines they abide within.

 

 

..........Widder

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The way the rule is currently written basically says that he who slows down the least without being penalized wins. How slow is enough? This is a racing sport how does one develop muscle memory and try to do their best if they are second guessing themselves as to whether or not they are going to fast? I've watched Jay shoot at four different clubs and seen the differences of the rule interpretation. I've thought about trying gunfighter myself but after watching this I'll hold off until a rule change.

 

A possible solution is to allow that only one gun at a time may be cocked. This would eliminate simultaneous discharge.

The issue here, from my perspective is not the "double cocking" but the "trigger pulling" :) , in which there are existing specific rules written to address this. Overall stage speed is not just achieved by the handgun(s) only. Some say transition is the biggest factor. So, double cocking and simultaenously firing to me is not a big contributor to better stage times and perhaps should even be an SOG level penalty-but no more new rules ;) My late GF sensei "Wildroot" always won through consistency and smart transitions, never double cocking with still incredible pistol split times. YMMV :D

 

DB :FlagAm:

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I am glad this thread came back on topic, simultaneously firing 2 revolvers. As the original poster Jay who double cocks is just starting in gunfighter category I suggest that he try the alternate cocking method then he could go as fast as he can with out the issue he now faces.

 

Fordyce Who double cocks but because of a slow brain transmission, trigger actuation system has never come close to bang for bang, bang.

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I agree,,,,the rules are the rules. All the Cowboy want to be Lawyers interpret the words as written in each of the rule books. We all try to figure it out the most efficient way to run the stage and most cowboys with out knowing press the rules as much a possible or as someone else has told them in the past. Is it gamey???? maybe so,,,, but when told what the rules are the cowboy just adapts and follows the rules ....there are lots of rules in the books that are interpreted the way someone wants them to be, example; a shooter must have a foot planted while shooting the 97 shotgun "Basketball Rule".. . Does this mean unless I can levitate it's ok to walk and shoot my 97 shotgun??? In my mind I will come closer to levitating than my left and right trigger finger pulling 2 different triggers operating 2 bolts ,paws and hammers at the same time with the primers igniting the powder exactly the same burn rate with 2 pieces of lead traveling down 2 different barrels. Myth Busters tried it 3 years ago with 2 pistols and mechanical trip triggers and they could not make it work Simultaneously .. Oh OH Oh 2 different hands, adding in the human factor that your left and right side of the brain does not work at the same speed . Kindda sounds ????? or are these cowboys really robots???? lots of question marks. Benefit goes to the shooter.....Have Fun and follow the rules.

Shoot Outlaw and save the fuss !!! Let's go to CAC 2014 www.badlandsbar3.com work day is over I gotta' go..

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I knew a cowboy shooter once upon a time that could fire TWO shots from one Ruger SA (unmodified) that many, many folks would allege* he only fired once. But his was rare speed. Any shot is a HIT until by sight and/or sound you KNOW it ain't.

 

 

* Read: swear on a stack of Bibles

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Allie it was nice to see u too. And I had already thought of what u said about watching the targets, so the solution would be to designate a cocking spotter. Where there' s a will there's a way. People resist change which is fine, but when the change improves things and reduces controversy I'm for it.

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A possible solution is to allow that only one gun at a time may be cocked. This would eliminate simultaneous discharge.

 

Nearly every gunfighter has 2 guns cocked at the same time on every stage. I alternate cock/shoot and yet I have both cocked for every shot except the last one.

 

Please don't suggest rule changes that punish indiscriminately!

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Allie it was nice to see u too. And I had already thought of what u said about watching the targets, so the solution would be to designate a cocking spotter. Where there' s a will there's a way. People resist change which is fine, but when the change improves things and reduces controversy I'm for it.

 

'cocking spotter' .............. please, no!

 

I cock both pistols after the draw and then alternate during the firing sequence. We don't need a rule nor penalty for double cocking.

Would the 'cocking spotter' REALLY KNOW that both pistols were FULLY cocked? Maybe one pistol was fully cocked and the other only 99% cocked before the other pistol fired. Maybe BOTH were never fully cocked and the shooter slipped off the hammer for the 1st shot.

 

How does double cocking hinder the spotters from doing their job?

 

Double Discharge is the problem and the rules and guidelines are already in place to handle those situations.

 

 

..........Widder

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Nearly every gunfighter has 2 guns cocked at the same time on every stage. I alternate cock/shoot and yet I have both cocked for every shot except the last one.

 

Please don't suggest rule changes that punish indiscriminately!

While I alternate cock/shoot, I start with two cocked guns. As above - don't mess with it, it's not a problem. Trying to re-write the rules to suit someone who does not even shoot the category is similar to how congress works. Lots of unintended consequences. This would mess up every single GFer in SASS.

 

CR

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Just an FYI...

 

proposed rule changes go through the ROC...which includes members of the WB...and the GUNFIGHTERS on the Committee would NOT support any proposal to further restrict those utilizing that shooting style.

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Gunfighter. There has been more time spent on defining and adjusting the rules of this category than all the other categories combined. From the beginning it was a hard sell, and many clubs would not allow it. The idea of "Certifying" folks to use this style of shooting didn't fly because no one wanted to take the responsibility of being the "Certifier". There were a number of issues that had to be dealt with.. "Pump Handling" (letting one gun move behind the other while alternating shots) was a early issue. Then we had the issue of whether or not the guns had to be shot alternately. It was finally decided that it didn't matter as long as the targets were shot in the correct order. So then we had to deal with split handgun stages. Re-holstering the guns after 5 shots was not to be allowed so GFers were allowed to stage their handgun after the first string of shots. They could also move to the next shooting position with the guns in hand, or they could shoot double duelist. How the guns were carried seemed to be a big issue with some. (Butt Forward was not allowed). Etc, etc, etc. No doubt that some of these rules are not liked by everyone. Any of these situations would break up the Rhythm of the GF, which of course they did not care for. So pressure from the GF community for "GF Friendly" stages grew to the point that Split handgun stages became fewer and fewer. Now the big issue is not firing both guns at the same time. If it sounds like one shot to the T.O. then that is what the shooter must deal with. I see no reason that the T.O. and the spotters should be forced into a corner over this. The idea of "BOD" is in some cases carried too far. Shooting GF isn't something that every shooter can do and it is difficult to do well. I've watched top GFers shoot, and they don't fire both shots at the same time... very close, but I can hear two shots. I do not believe that the GF is being "Picked" on. Since we are required to Judge ourselves in this game, we need to do everything that we can to make things fair to all.

 

Snakebite

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revolvers"-"must ( be obliged to ) be shot one at a time ( A point in time) to facilitate (make an action or process easy or easier.) scoring."

 

Or

 

The competitor is obliged to discharge each round from revolvers at a single point of time to make scoring easy.

 

1. I am firing each round at a single point of time.

2. How does this rule make scoring easier?

 

People always say " You know what I mean."

 

What am I, a mind reader?

 

Jump on the fun train!

 

P.S. Of course, what I have written could also mean, "all ten rounds are to be fired at the same single point of time."

 

P.S.S. What about just making a Outlaw Class.

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Oh horrors, "unfairness" to gunfighters. Let's not forget the "unfairness" to double shooters for odd numbered shotgun stages. "Unfairness" to short people for props that are to high. "Unfairness" to tall people for window frames that are to low. "Unfairness" to fat people for having to move from point A to point B. Time to move on and just go shoot. Maybe the definition of SOG should be changed to cover excessive whining.

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The campaign to allow SIMO (simultaneous) discharge of revolvers when shooting GUNFIGHTER-style has been ongoing for almost as long as the one to allow "butt-forward" carry & Cav/twist draw.

 

I know at least one multi-titled FGF/FCGF who shoots OUTLAW/SIMO/BP on the last stage of most matches in which he competes...accepting the PROCEDURAL for that 1st violation (failure to adhere to the guidelines of the category in which the shooter is competing), but not wanting to risk the SDQ for the 2nd violation.

:P

 

He has also called the "P" on himself for inadvertently pulling both triggers at the same time...and been overruled by T/Os and/or spotters who said they heard two distinct shots.

^_^

 

THAT is the "call" on this issue...NOT whether the timing device picked up a nanosecond split, but whether the scoring observers HEARD the difference.

IF there is NO DOUBT...there is NO BENEFIT.

:ph34r:

 

I would also suggest reviewing the regs for OUTLAW category...I don't believe they allow "SIMO" engagement of targets either.

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Hey Jay....have been to a match? have you seen a gunfighter shoot? have you been a spotter? One of the areas of responsibility for spotters is to "count the shots fired"......firing shots simultaneously makes counting to 10 rather difficult for the spotters. What ends up happening is the spotters and the TO will tell the gunfighter they have "one more" round to shoot.....and no that would not be improper coaching.

 

The guys that have been shooting gunfighter know this......they know how to shoot within the category requirements. Anyone that feels like they can't meet the requirements should not choose to shoot gunfighter.

 

 

Stan

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I really want to shoot gunfighter someday, but I'm a afraid some crazy bug will crawl up my fourth point of contact and make me complain incessantly about the unfairness of it all and I'll forget to have fun. I guess I'll just stick to double duelist for now since that's stil fun

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Can other shooting styles have simultaneous discharges? No.

Can other shooting styles have two loaded guns in hand at the same time? No. Besides GF and BW.

Can most spotters watch two targets at the same time? I would say no, but some may argue that one.

 

Fair or unfair? the categories were not designed to be fair, sheesh. They were designed to allow folks to shoot how they want to.

 

I see gunfighters often in the top 5 at matches, tell me what a disadvantage it is.

 

I think I'll stop here lest I really get on my soap box.

 

Shoot how you want within the rules, have fun.

 

Grizz

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I really want to shoot gunfighter someday, but I'm a afraid some crazy bug will crawl up my fourth point of contact and make me complain incessantly about the unfairness of it all and I'll forget to have fun. I guess I'll just stick to double duelist for now since that's stil fun

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Can other shooting styles have simultaneous discharges? No.

Can other shooting styles have two loaded guns in hand at the same time? No. Besides GF and BW.

Can most spotters watch two targets at the same time? I would say no, but some may argue that one.

 

Fair or unfair? the categories were not designed to be fair, sheesh. They were designed to allow folks to shoot how they want to.

 

I see gunfighters often in the top 5 at matches, tell me what a disadvantage it is.

 

I think I'll stop here lest I really get on my soap box.

 

Shoot how you want within the rules, have fun.

 

Grizz

 

And so I will. ;)

 

There are 5 targets, just an example. Instructions say "Engage each target with one shot from each pistol." GF or not, as a spotter I am now tasked with watching five targets at once, then four, then three, then two and finally one.

 

That said, if I am spotting for a GF'er and can not distinguish whether there was one shot fired or two audibly, I am going to make the call. Done it before, would not hesitate to do it again. But believe me, I can almost always distinguish the difference, and I am able to see bullet strikes. If I can't tell which target was hit first, that's a call I would choose not to make. The whole point is not to slow the GF'er down, but for them to be aware that calls will be made, in good faith.

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thanks Goody, I knew someone would speak up :D

 

You gotta admit watching both first two targets at the same time of an outside outside inside inside middle sweep is dang near impossible for many or most spotters.

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