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Fairness to Gunfighters


JaySnowden

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Offer to write some stages. That style of stage writing went out years ago.

 

Stan

 

 

 

I do belive you still see a stage or two at some bigger matches with split pistol senarios.. Not often anymore...

Spades,

Stan was referring to the outdated stage writing "phrasing" of "Shoot 1st pistol (such and such) - Holster.

Then shoot 2nd Pistol (such and such) - Holster

 

Current stage writing simply tells you what to do with the 10 rounds from your pistols, making no mention of 1st pistol - 2nd pistol - stage conventions tell you to holster at the conclusion of the shooting string.

 

As for split pistols - those stages still occur quite often and the GF must shoot them either double duelist or the shoot must provide a staging area to place the pistols after the 5th round is fired.

 

Being a GF - I don't write a lot of split pistol stages.

I do write a fair amount of two position pistol stages - i.e. shoot five and move.

Gives some pistol variety without creating a situation where a GF feels like they have to shoot out of category.

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Counters are required to

Count total shots per firearm

Look for legitimate misses

Watch for correct target order, when sweeps etc are called for

 

Firing two pistols at the same time,,,,,,well, that makes it difficult to do all of the above

 

When I started gun fighter, more than half the stages were written with split pistols, and you HAD TO SHOOT DOUBLE dullest

 

Things have improved 100% with that regards

 

Oh well

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Spades,

Stan was referring to the outdated stage writing "phrasing" of "Shoot 1st pistol (such and such) - Holster.

Then shoot 2nd Pistol (such and such) - Holster

 

Current stage writing simply tells you what to do with the 10 rounds from your pistols, making no mention of 1st pistol - 2nd pistol - stage conventions tell you to holster at the conclusion of the shooting string.

 

As for split pistols - those stages still occur quite often and the GF must shoot them either double duelist or the shoot must provide a staging area to place the pistols after the 5th round is fired.

 

Being a GF - I don't write a lot of split pistol stages.

I do write a fair amount of two position pistol stages - i.e. shoot five and move.

Gives some pistol variety without creating a situation where a GF feels like they have to shoot out of category.

 

 

 

 

Spades,

Stan was referring to the outdated stage writing "phrasing" of "Shoot 1st pistol (such and such) - Holster.

Then shoot 2nd Pistol (such and such) - Holster

 

Current stage writing simply tells you what to do with the 10 rounds from your pistols, making no mention of 1st pistol - 2nd pistol - stage conventions tell you to holster at the conclusion of the shooting string.

 

As for split pistols - those stages still occur quite often and the GF must shoot them either double duelist or the shoot must provide a staging area to place the pistols after the 5th round is fired.

 

Being a GF - I don't write a lot of split pistol stages.

I do write a fair amount of two position pistol stages - i.e. shoot five and move.

Gives some pistol variety without creating a situation where a GF feels like they have to shoot out of category.

 

Ah yes, I see, and agree! ^_^

 

As GFer's we shoot what we are given, I always say if you don't want to grab an oar (Offer to write some stages) then shut up, sit in the boat, and enjoy the ride!! :lol::lol:

 

Spades H. Loves them sweeps!! :P

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Last stage of last match had 4 pistol targets. Two were placed far to left and two were to the right. The directions were to pull one pistol and shoot 5 shots at left target making sure to hit both at least once. Holster first pistol and pull second pistol and repeat on right two targets. I shot double duelist. Afterwards, I wished I'd shot it gunfighter and alternately shot left targets with left gun and right targets with right gun. I would have probably got a bunch of Ps for shooting out of order but it would have been cool.

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I have been shooting GF for about ten months now. It is difficult to get through six stages at any match and not have two shots (out of sixty) go off very close together. When it happens, there is no benefit to the shooter and confusion for the spotters and TO. Most GFers try not to do it.

 

The real problem is when a GFer tries to get off simultaneous shots. They are being cute or rebellious, but it can make a good day go sour with the discussions that take place after the shooter completes the stage. I prefer not to spot a cowboy who does this intentionally.

 

Can't we all just get along?

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Last stage of last match had 4 pistol targets. Two were placed far to left and two were to the right. The directions were to pull one pistol and shoot 5 shots at left target making sure to hit both at least once. Holster first pistol and pull second pistol and repeat on right two targets. I shot double duelist. Afterwards, I wished I'd shot it gunfighter and alternately shot left targets with left gun and right targets with right gun. I would have probably got a bunch of Ps for shooting out of order but it would have been cool.

Well - not a bunch of "P's", but at least one.

The Gunfighter HAS to shoot the stage in a sequence available to any other shooter.

 

Too many Gunfighters have tried the "But I shot those targets with my right pistol and those with my left one, same as a two handed shooter" defense.

Another way to look at it is - if the shooter was hidden from view and ALL you watched was target engagement - would the target engagement be legal for a two handed shooter? If no - then the Gunfighter is forbidden from doing it as well.

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Well - not a bunch of "P's", but at least one.

The Gunfighter HAS to shoot the stage in a sequence available to any other shooter.

 

Too many Gunfighters have tried the "But I shot those targets with my right pistol and those with my left one, same as a two handed shooter" defense.

Another way to look at it is - if the shooter was hidden from view and ALL you watched was target engagement - would the target engagement be legal for a two handed shooter? If no - then the Gunfighter is forbidden from doing it as well.

 

Well said!!!

 

Spades H.

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I have never got to shoot with Widder, but I do shoot with some really great gunfighter and It is no harder to spot for the world champ gunfighter than to spot for Matt Black are maybe Duece.You just have to watch the targets.

Pit Bull....being in Texas I'm sure you've shot with Tbone Dooley. I've shot on the same posse with him before in Kentucky and he was shooting outlaw. He would tell you how he was going to shoot the pistols and you still have a hard time spotting for him because he is so fast. One guy finally told me that to spot for Tbone you need to watch the dirt behind the targets, not the target, if you are gonna see a miss. It's a blast to watch a skilled craftsman at work with his tools.

 

Kajun

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Stage instructions that specify separate revolvers such as "first pistol/second pistol"; "left revolver/right revolver"; or "with each handgun" are considered as "1st five shots/2nd five shots" when shooting GUNFIGHTER-STYLE.

 

RO2 p.10

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It's not the "double-cocking" that's a problem so much as the double/"SIMO" TRIGGER PULL/HAMMER FALL/DISCHARGE that can make it difficult to determine HITS on targets.

Only once have I seen a GFr do a double tap sweep on five targets and not be able to differentiate the shots audibly. As a spotter, and knowing him to be a black powder shooter, I was paying close attention and saw the two hits per target. This was early in my CAS career and didn't know it was wrong to shoot it that way, but nobody else called him on it. I thought it was awsome, lots of smoke and fire!

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Great there's a difference in the world times and a match the rules don't necessary carry over. I've seen two handed shooters dump a gun and it is very hard to hear the individual shots like it is required for gfers to do. One of the reasons I quit shooting gfer a few years back half the shooter both gfer and other didn't understand the rules at the time. For gfer first pistol equals first five shots second pistol is last five shots but seen them shoot one pistol at one sequence while shooting the second pistol at another sequence. Did they shoot the targets in the sane order as everyone else, no, but they got away with it. Then the split gun came about to mess with gfers. Iirc one EOT during this time had eight of twelve split pistol stages. Sure they allowed for the guns to be staged on some stages but it still wasn't a match that was fun for gfers. I switched to duelist and had more fun as it wasn't as hard to shoot the stages then went to frontiersman and was back working hard to shoot the stages but this time it was physical not mental.

 

And the only shot that counts on the timer is the last weather it caught 24 shots on a 24 round stage ore one it's a valid time if the one was the last shot counted. As timers go how mant MDs go and sync the settings of all the timers in the pool of timers and forbid modifying of the settings and check each timer when it returned to verify the settings were not tampered with. And do they post those settings. I would say none even check the timer except to make sure the battery works. I've seen timers with a delay on the beep and I've seen the beep instantly go off. I use to check it before hand. Given a preference I think it should be random between 1ans3seconds so the shooter and the to are unsure exactly when the beep will sound whereas not to give any cues to the shooter. I'm not saying it's happened but it could.

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Nevada state championship overall belt buckle went to a GunFighter once

It can be done

 

Yep. And I believe it was to that notorious, misfit, horsethief, heartbreaker/homewrecker JEDI GF name of Madd Mike...

 

:D

 

 

..........Widder

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Great there's a difference in the world times and a match the rules don't necessary carry over. I've seen two handed shooters dump a gun and it is very hard to hear the individual shots like it is required for gfers to do. One of the reasons I quit shooting gfer a few years back half the shooter both gfer and other didn't understand the rules at the time. For gfer first pistol equals first five shots second pistol is last five shots but seen them shoot one pistol at one sequence while shooting the second pistol at another sequence. Did they shoot the targets in the sane order as everyone else, no, but they got away with it. Then the split gun came about to mess with gfers. Iirc one EOT during this time had eight of twelve split pistol stages. Sure they allowed for the guns to be staged on some stages but it still wasn't a match that was fun for gfers. I switched to duelist and had more fun as it wasn't as hard to shoot the stages then went to frontiersman and was back working hard to shoot the stages but this time it was physical not mental.

 

And the only shot that counts on the timer is the last weather it caught 24 shots on a 24 round stage ore one it's a valid time if the one was the last shot counted. As timers go how mant MDs go and sync the settings of all the timers in the pool of timers and forbid modifying of the settings and check each timer when it returned to verify the settings were not tampered with. And do they post those settings. I would say none even check the timer except to make sure the battery works. I've seen timers with a delay on the beep and I've seen the beep instantly go off. I use to check it before hand. Given a preference I think it should be random between 1ans3seconds so the shooter and the to are unsure exactly when the beep will sound whereas not to give any cues to the shooter. I'm not saying it's happened but it could.

Sorry to tell you pard but "the split gun" did not come around to "mess with gunfighters"......it's actually quite the opposite. We used to shoot split pistols a lot.....nowadays if you try to include a split pistol stage in a match some of the gunfighters complain as if you were trying to hang them. I don't pine for the "good ole days" because I think they are now but as things change I do miss some stuff and not having split pistols removes some of the stage creativity that we used to see. The sport changed to benefit the Gunfighters not "mess with them".........

 

Not quite sure where you are going with your timer story......to my knowledge you can't change the speed of the timer so there really isn't a whole lot to worry about there. I've yet to attend a match where the timers were set to random. As an RO random would not be my choice........Instant. When I was a match director I never felt the need to post the timer settings nor was I ever asked what they were........

 

Stan

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Last stage of last match had 4 pistol targets. Two were placed far to left and two were to the right. The directions were to pull one pistol and shoot 5 shots at left target making sure to hit both at least once. Holster first pistol and pull second pistol and repeat on right two targets. I shot double duelist. Afterwards, I wished I'd shot it gunfighter and alternately shot left targets with left gun and right targets with right gun. I would have probably got a bunch of Ps for shooting out of order but it would have been cool.

WC,

 

You are thinking first pistol, second pistol.

 

A gunfighter should be thinking first five shots, second five shots.

 

As a GF I enjoy stages like you described. Facing the left bank of targets draw pistols L p1 R p2 L p1 R p2 L p1 turn to right bank of targets R p4 L p3 R p4 L p3 R p4.

 

All targets have been engaged at least once and no cross overs for the GF.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Smoke

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Recently I switched to the Gunfighter category....

Jay,

I was amazed when I saw you shoot both pistols at the same time. You have always been a person that tries to maximize your performance, and I say that in a good way. If you want to change a rule get some Territorial Governors on board and start the process. I would like to see how you deal with counting for twin shots, I don't see how it can be done with the same process that is currently used. I know that the suggestion in the O.P. to inform the spotters does not work, competent spotters know the stage instructions and can not look at two places at the same time. Let me know, I am interested.

 

It is not fair to not follow the current rule, when you do that it is not compliant with gunfighter rules and it is fair that you earn a procedural, progressive penalty.

 

Thank you for bringing this up in an open forum, I know you love shooting as much as I do.

 

Fordyce

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I agree with the "red headed stepchild" analogy. A few at our club shoot duelist. I think I'm the only one that's been shooting double duelist and I'm real sure I'm the only one that shoots gunfighter. The stages are often written specifically for shooting one handgun at a time. "Shooter pulls right pistol and engages targets ..... then holsters that pistol and pulls left pistol and engages targets.....".

Warden...your stage writers need to be politely educated that there are pistol targets, rifle targets, and shotgun targets. There is a specific order

 

of firearms to shoot those targets with but NOT NOHOW NOWHERE should a stage description say first or second pistol there are (usually) ten pistol shots

 

fired at (X) number of pistol targets in a specified order.

 

Regards,

 

Train Robber

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Warden...your stage writers need to be politely educated that there are pistol targets, rifle targets, and shotgun targets. There is a specific order of firearms to shoot those targets with but NOT NOHOW NOWHERE should a stage description say first or second pistol there are (usually) ten pistol shotsfired at (X) number of pistol targets in a specified order.Regards,Train Robber

Politely is right. I'm a new shooter and the other folks are great and many work hard to set up and run the matches. We do the best we can and I can't quote the rule book verse chapter and line. I'll get around to bringing up the topic in a non-confrontational manor. At the point where the stage scenario is read is not the time to yell out, "Hey! Wait a minute. What about gunfighter?". And I don't want (or feel qualified) the job of wrighting stage scenarios.

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Warden...your stage writers need to be politely educated that there are pistol targets, rifle targets, and shotgun targets. There is a specific order

 

of firearms to shoot those targets with but NOT NOHOW NOWHERE should a stage description say first or second pistol there are (usually) ten pistol shots

 

fired at (X) number of pistol targets in a specified order.

 

Regards,

 

Train Robber

Hi Train Robber,

 

I have seen scenarios where the gun to engage a certain target was shooter's choice. Some even had bonuses for shooting more distant targets with a pistol.

 

About the first five shots, second five shots thing, I agree that is now the convention for GFs.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

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Just my view.If a gunfighter is shooting both pistols at the same time he is breaking the rules.I am sure that it happens ,but if they are doing it because they want to then it should be a SDQ and then a MDQ.It is sure not playing the game the cowboy way.

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Politely is right. I'm a new shooter and the other folks are great and many work hard to set up and run the matches. We do the best we can and I can't quote the rule book verse chapter and line. I'll get around to bringing up the topic in a non-confrontational manor. At the point where the stage scenario is read is not the time to yell out, "Hey! Wait a minute. What about gunfighter?". And I don't want (or feel qualified) the job of wrighting stage scenarios.

Howdy Warden, I think you may reading more into the stage instructions than are there. I would be really surprised if the MD and RO didn't already understand what the rules say. It just appears the stage writer is still using an ole timey style to write stages. The only time you can be forced out of GF style is when there are split pistols with no safe prop in between. If they don't understand then you should make them aware of it, before the match starts, nothing impolite about that. You might even ask them to take a look at this thread. Nothing wrong with chapter and verse either, we all have to play by the same rules, if not I could write a stage saying everyone had to shoot it duelist. :wacko:

 

Quote

Stage instructions that specify separate revolvers such as "first pistol/second pistol"; "left revolver/right revolver"; or "with each handgun" are considered as "1st five shots/2nd five shots" when shooting GUNFIGHTER-STYLE.

 

RO2 p.10

 

RO I page 15

6. Revolvers are returned to leather (re-holstered) with hammer down on a spent case or empty

chamber at the conclusion of the shooting string, unless the stage description specifically

directs otherwise; e.g., “move to next position and set gun on table or prop.” A shooting

string is defined as shots from one type of firearm prior to the next type of firearm engaged.

The stage you were talking about could be written like this;

 

With pistols alternate five rounds on P1&P2, then alternate five rounds on P3&P4. With rifle alternate five rounds on R1&R2, then alternate five rounds on R3&R4. Move to table 2, with shotgun shot the four knockdowns..............No where in here is there a need to say "with pistol 1 holster", that is covered in the Stage Conventions. Nor did I say "make rifle safe on table 1" that too is covered in Stage Conventions; RO I page 13

7. Revolvers are returned to leather after the shooting string.

.8. Revolvers are drawn and used in accordance with the shooter’s category.

6. Long guns will be discarded open and empty with their barrels pointed safely down range.

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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At the point where the stage scenario is read is not the time to yell out, "Hey! Wait a minute. What about gunfighter?

That's exactly the right time to ask any questions that you have. That's why they read the stage instructions before each stage.

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The discussions about whether Gunfighters have faster overall times is off the mark. The rule is not concerned with total time (or even total time for pistols on one stage). It is the interval between a pair of shots. One might double cock and take 12 seconds to get the pistol shots away and still run into trouble under the rule--by unloading each pair so nearly at the same time as to sound like a single shot. As others have said above, the rule is there to facilitate accurate scoring, which spotters do using their ears and eyes. Apart from hearing two shots as one, consider, even with your eyes attentively on the targets, the difficulty of seeing hits on two targets at about the same moment (or maybe a hit on one and a miss on the other). That visual challenge is even greater if the targets are not right next to each other.

 

I shoot GF and don't double cock (regrettably, no one complains that I am shooting too rapidly to allow them to count and see the shots). But I spot for a local GF who does double cock. I have never seen him come close to violating the rule. But I can tell you that even knowing the pattern he will shoot, it is not always easy to see that the second shot in a pair hit the right target.

 

All things considered, I think it is a good rule--and because the interval between shots in a pair can be so small and still allow both shots to be be distinctly heard, I am not persuaded that it handicaps those who shoot GF.

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..... and it's nuances, fiobles, curiosities & challenges.

....try FCGF on a fast, up close, stand and deliver stage with all the smoke. They hear all the bang and clang and when the smoke clears, the spotters are looking at each other :blink: ! I do alternate cock, it just seems more" fluid" and efficient for me.

 

DB :FlagAm:

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Long before GunFighter was ever invented by Tex SASS #4

Split pistol stage writing was more the norm than NOT

 

I SHOT single duelist them days

Then after years of very hard work, GunFighter was approved, and better than 50% of the clubs I shot with in ca, az would NoT even allow it PERIOD.....end of topic

 

To try and fix that problem sass tried low key certification

A gunfighter needed to shoot a minimum of three local matches and become proven safe, by that local match director

I did that, and traveled with a business card sized (non uniformed) cert as was required not really, just suggested as a fix

ManY of those same clubs would refuse me, stating, any one could have printed that

Some of those same travel matches, since I was all ready there, I would shoot it double dullest just in spite

and in several cases I even pull off a win over all, on there turf, with their stage writing

Then they saw the possibilities

I even did a annual shoot in mica Washington, 1200 mile road trip for me,

same deal, no flipping GFers were allowed,

it was cool, I took second overall as dullest, first overall was their local shooter shooting ,,,,,,, yup dullest,

I think that ol number four was there and will back the facts

 

I am sure that many current GunFighters do not understand some of my postings with regards to stuff like

Unfair to GFers

 

You awl ain't seen what unfair really was

 

The gunfighter rule for facilitating counters to better see

Real misses

Proper round count fired for each gun

Proper target sequence was achieved

Is not unreasonable

For any shooting style

 

Yes does benefit of doubt favor the shooter, sure that makes sense

But weather you are the fastest support hand shooter in the world

Or you are the fastest gunfighter in the world

Or you are the fastest double dullest in the world

 

No one ever expected to see the speeds

that big-close-same size/height/spacing of said targets would achieve (yes I will include practice of that ideal as well)

 

What's my point

Diminishing returns

 

What is the fix

Only the shadow knows

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....try FCGF on a fast, up close, stand and deliver stage with all the smoke. They hear all the bang and clang and when the smoke clears, the spotters are looking at each other :blink: ! I do alternate cock, it just seems more" fluid" and efficient for me.

 

DB :FlagAm:

This reminds me of a very involved stage I shot FCGF at a larger match a few years ago. Shoot rifle from end of the bay. Move into the bay to shotgun shoot two sg targets on left turn downrange shoot two sg targets. Move to the right shoot two sg targets. Turn downrange and engage one pistol target with ten rounds. All this movement put the shooter into the corner where the back berm and side berm came together, with several prop walls behind the shooter, so no breeze at all. By the third or fourth pistol shot the target was completely obscured. I just kept shooting into the cloud and hitting the target but thought I was rising up with each shot so with the tenth shot I dropped down a little. Of course, I shot right under the target. :(

 

Still it was a great stage.

 

Smoke

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Now my head hurts !! Will stick with double duelist. But tell me, How does one go about "picking your posse" when you dont know who is in your posse until posse assignments are called out before the match ? The "posse with" on entry form notwithstanding in larger matchs.

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Now my head hurts !! Will stick with double duelist. But tell me, How does one go about "picking your posse" when you dont know who is in your posse until posse assignments are called out before the match ? The "posse with" on entry form notwithstanding in larger matchs.

You can promote building your posse from the ground up, folks you know that will attend (pre plan) takes effort and salesmen ship at first

You can simply request posse with "x" pick some one from afar that you always wanted to shoot with

You can simply request "DO NOT POSSE me with" due to past history real life experience, not just, you do not think it would go well

Big difference, I have posses with folks I did not think would work, and it did in deed go well

You can just send in your app and take the posse as given

99.8% I take the posse as given and enjoy it very much, as I always go away knowing and appreciating many new folks

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Thanks Mike. I usually take whats given. At La. State Champ this spring was in posse with "strangers" and ended up in best posse ever !! Thats what is great about the people in this sport.

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Now my head hurts !! Will stick with double duelist. But tell me, How does one go about "picking your posse" when you dont know who is in your posse until posse assignments are called out before the match ? The "posse with" on entry form notwithstanding in larger matchs.

Around here there is pretty much the same fast shooters at the clubs i attend. So i look to see what posse they are on and sign up for that posse. If the club assigned posses that wouldn't be possible. I've also found that good shooting promotes good shooting. Some of the adrenaline rubs off or whatever.

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. Some of the adrenaline rubs off or whatever.

 

 

You run on me you are gonna get the what-ever :P

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I rubbed on you the last shoot.... That whatever don't wash off... I'm trying turpentine next the bleach didn't do anything

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I been on several posses where contraversity just made the match a chore and I've been on posses that run well without problems and had a blast. I prefer the later so I try to posse with them when possible. I'm not talking monthlies I'm talking annuals where I'm there to have fun because I'm not fast enough to place normally anymore. Given the chance I'll request to posse with those I know will make the match enjoyable you still meet new shooters every match. Like this past EOT, I possed with the usual shooters I enjoy shooting with but over half the posse was people I didn't know and most took first in their respect category it seemed. I was fast and fun. Everyone was busy working not trying to get over. We usually finish several minutes ahead of the previous posse so we got to chit chat then while we waited for the bay. No one was rushed, I should know since I was one of the slower moving/shooting members on that posse. The posse marshal and TOs were right on the calls no arguments or discussion iirc. The shooter shot the stage received their time with or without penallies and knew it was correct. No one gamed(bad way) the stages. Posse marshal answered all questions by using the book if it wasn't common knowledge. Everyone understood the stage meaning and shot with in it.

 

Many years ago I was on a posse that the PM was the one that created the problems on about every stage he tried to do something wrong or did and there was a group that had problems with him almost to the point of interpersonal conflict. I had the worst experience because of the drama between the two groups. I'll never posse with that individual again. I'll leave a match first if they will not swap posses. I've had my bad matches were I was trying to hard and had problems but none were as bad as that match.

 

There shooters I will not posse with, there's some I rather not posse with there some I want to posse with and there some I don't know. Also I'm sure there shooters that rather not posse with me also for one reason or another.

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Go on down to Georgia. Lots of GF'er friendly stages and fast shooters to be coached by and learn from!

 

And if you don't like to spot for GF'res, then shoot the category for a while... s'what I did so I could run the timer and teach myself to spot more effectively. Heck, I don't even like shooting duelist... but I do... 'cause Frontiersman requires it!

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