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Fairness to Gunfighters


JaySnowden

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Recently I switched to the Gunfighter category. Little did I know how must trouble I would have because of one small section found within the shooters handbook, I.E.., "revolvers"-"must be shot one at a time to facilitate scoring." A reading of this section clearly indicated it was conceived for the purpose of counting and not for safety or any other reason. The problem resides with the system of counting and not with the shooter. Why then is the shooter being effectively penalized? At some matches no one seem to care whether or not I hit the target but only if my spits were long enough. If the Leadership wants to concede that they can not score a fast gunfighter then perhaps a rewrite of said section is in order:

 

"revolvers"-"must be shot slowly to ease scoring for the benefit of the spotters.

 

Or, in another nonsensical move, write a rule that ALL shooters must have a one one thousand, two one thousand count between shots.

 

It's a manner of fairness that each competitor should be allowed to shoot their best in the category of choice.

Therefore may I suggest said section be replaced with:

 

"Gunfighters should inform the spotters of their intended patten to assist in scoring."

 

After all scoring is the problem not shooting.

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I'm new to this game and nobody has given me advice on how to score/decide if it's ahit or not. Some are easy - you see the movment, hear the target ring or see the bullet splatter/smoke upon impact.

 

But not always. And the faster the shooter the harder it can be to tell. Some targets (and calibers) are easier to see the hits and others can be hard especially if the hit is near an edge or the target is still swinging (fast shooters, light 38s lose on these calls). Add distance to the targets and it's harder yet for old eyes.

 

And I've yet to see a match where they repaint the targets during the day.

 

Need we even talk BP?

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You have to shoot the stage the same as any other category,one shot at a time.No other category can shoot two shots at the same time so a gunfighter can not shoot two shots at the same time.You don't have to slow down as a gunfighter.The really fast two handed shooter shoot 5 shots faster than most gunfighters can shoot 5 shots.If your spotters can't count for gunfighters they sure can't count for the fast two handed shooters.Tell your spotters to watch the targets and not your guns.

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Benefit always goes to the shooter right?

 

I'm just fast enough to qualify as moving, but if I was really fast like some of the guys I've seen, I wouldn't alter my technique to help you spot me.

 

It's a hit unless you saw/heard it miss. The loading and unloading tables and TO verify proper number of rounds fired.

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Recently I switched to the Gunfighter category. Little did I know how must trouble I would have because of one small section found within the shooters handbook, I.E.., "revolvers"-"must be shot one at a time to facilitate scoring." A reading of this section clearly indicated it was conceived for the purpose of counting and not for safety or any other reason. The problem resides with the system of counting and not with the shooter. Why then is the shooter being effectively penalized? At some matches no one seem to care whether or not I hit the target but only if my spits were long enough. If the Leadership wants to concede that they can not score a fast gunfighter then perhaps a rewrite of said section is in order:

 

"revolvers"-"must be shot slowly to ease scoring for the benefit of the spotters.

 

Or, in another nonsensical move, write a rule that ALL shooters must have a one one thousand, two one thousand count between shots.

 

It's a manner of fairness that each competitor should be allowed to shoot their best in the category of choice.

Therefore may I suggest said section be replaced with:

 

"Gunfighters should inform the spotters of their intended patten to assist in scoring."

 

After all scoring is the problem not shooting.

What the Leadership is trying to do is reduce the number of times the Range Officials (spotters and TO) tell the gunfightter "one more one more" because they can't effectively count the shots fired.

 

Stan

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You have to shoot the stage the same as any other category,one shot at a time.No other category can shoot two shots at the same time so a gunfighter can not shoot two shots at the same time.You don't have to slow down as a gunfighter.The really fast two handed shooter shoot 5 shots faster than most gunfighters can shoot 5 shots.Just look at the 10 shoot world records.If your spotters can't count for gunfighters they sure can't count for the fast two handed shooters.Tell your spotters to watch the targets and not your guns.

Ta Daaaa!! :D

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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Benefit always goes to the shooter right?

 

I'm just fast enough to qualify as moving, but if I was really fast like some of the guys I've seen, I wouldn't alter my technique to help you spot me.

 

It's a hit unless you saw/heard it miss. The loading and unloading tables and TO verify proper number of rounds fired.

 

Tom, you are correct.

 

One of the problems that arise when a GF uses the double discharge method is that some Spotters don't have a doubt because they didn't see one of the bullets hit the intended target so therefore it must have been a Miss.

 

I don't think this rule was intended to hurt or slow the GF down. But we have to have a means for the spotters to evaluate the shooter fairly.

 

There are good discussion points on both sides of this subject with many GF'ers on both sides.

 

Personally, I don't think its an unfair rule. Its there to insure the shooter gets 'correct' calls, not 'benefit' calls.

 

 

..........Widder

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The problem comes because you have some TRYING there VERY HARDEST to pull both triggers at the same time.

Can not count shots. Can not tell if the targets was hit in the correct order.

And they play the BOD to the shooter card.

Makes it hard on the rest of the GFer's

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You have to shoot the stage the same as any other category,one shot at a time.No other category can shoot two shots at the same time so a gunfighter can not shoot two shots at the same time.You don't have to slow down as a gunfighter.The really fast two handed shooter shoot 5 shots faster than most gunfighters can shoot 5 shots.Just look at the 10 shoot world records.If your spotters can't count for gunfighters they sure can't count for the fast two handed shooters.Tell your spotters to watch the targets and not your guns.

 

Actually if you look at the 10 shot records gf is winning by half a second. Now i think that the amazing duece, will continue to wittle that down.

My best advice as a gf is choose your posse wisely. I used to get soooo frustrated when i was called for misses that i knew i hit. Faster shooters pick up hits where slower ones dont. In my opinion is because they are used to the faster pace.

 

I used to hold back a little because i was warned i would get a p. Then i started choosing a faster posse. Now i shoot all out. My times have drastically improved

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I used to shoot gunfighter and it seems at times that the gf is the red headed step Child of sass. I two handed shooter can fire five shots as fast as he can some times in under three seconds but a gunfighter has to pace their first five rounds so the couriers can hear/see each shot. There is no way a duelist or gfer will ever win overall at a big match.

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To all IMO you have to see the miss to call it under the rules. Where is the benefit of the doubt go to the gfer under that rule gone if you ask me.

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To all IMO you have to see the miss to call it under the rules. Where is the benefit of the doubt go to the gfer under that rule gone if you ask me.

 

Yup. When I'm a spotter, I always watch the target, but sometimes due to smoke or a split-second distraction, I might not see it. Therefore, unless I'm dead certain that I heard no clang, the benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter.

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I have never got to shoot with Widder, but I do shoot with some really great gunfighter and It is no harder to spot for the world champ gunfighter than to spot for Matt Black are maybe Duece.You just have to watch the targets.

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a few years ago, I ROed a shooter at a monthly match and he informed the spotters on the first stage that for any stage with double taps with his pistols he would pull both triggers at the same time. I informed his that was not advisable. First stage he did it. Second stage with double taps, I told him I would check the timer. If it did not pick up the proper number of shots he would be penalized and he was on two stages. He argued the rifle did not pick up his shots and I told him tough, go see the match director. Match director told him if he did it again he would be given a MDQ at this match and any in the future and sent home.

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You guys really want to see some funny calls, play the black powder games. After that first shot on a still summer morning and you can actually watch the spotters looking for the boldest guy to decide on a call after you finish shooting. In black powder you will most often only get credit when there is audible feedback, if it were called by the rule book black powder shooters would have the most clean shoots in SASS. I'm not complaining cuz I didnt see a thing and I was pulling the trigger!

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I used to shoot gunfighter and it seems at times that the gf is the red headed step Child of sass. I two handed shooter can fire five shots as fast as he can some times in under three seconds but a gunfighter has to pace their first five rounds so the couriers can hear/see each shot. There is no way a duelist or gfer will ever win overall at a big match.

Pretty sure Badlands Bud won the Oregon State Match shooting GF.

 

Stan

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I used to shoot gunfighter and it seems at times that the gf is the red headed step Child of sass. I two handed shooter can fire five shots as fast as he can some times in under three seconds but a gunfighter has to pace their first five rounds so the couriers can hear/see each shot. There is no way a duelist or gfer will ever win overall at a big match.

I agree with the "red headed stepchild" analogy. A few at our club shoot duelist. I think I'm the only one that's been shooting double duelist and I'm real sure I'm the only one that shoots gunfighter. The stages are often written specifically for shooting one handgun at a time. "Shooter pulls right pistol and engages targets ..... then holsters that pistol and pulls left pistol and engages targets.....".

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I agree with the "red headed stepchild" analogy. A few at our club shoot duelist. I think I'm the only one that's been shooting double duelist and I'm real sure I'm the only one that shoots gunfighter. The stages are often written specifically for shooting one handgun at a time. "Shooter pulls right pistol and engages targets ..... then holsters that pistol and pulls left pistol and engages targets.....".

Offer to write some stages. That style of stage writing went out years ago.

 

Stan

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Tom, you are correct.

 

One of the problems that arise when a GF uses the double discharge method is that some Spotters don't have a doubt because they didn't see one of the bullets hit the intended target so therefore it must have been a Miss.

 

I don't think this rule was intended to hurt or slow the GF down. But we have to have a means for the spotters to evaluate the shooter fairly.

 

There are good discussion points on both sides of this subject with many GF'ers on both sides.

 

Personally, I don't think its an unfair rule. Its there to insure the shooter gets 'correct' calls, not 'benefit' calls.

 

 

..........Widder

 

I just reread the books. ROII, page 10. Down at the bottom.

 

When shooting with two guns, both revolvers may be cocked at the same time, but

must be shot one at a time to facilitate scoring.

 

 

So, looks like in addition to being a good idea, it's a "must."

 

But my question now is, who gets to decide if the split between shots is sufficient?

 

Not all shot timers are created equal.

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I agree with the "red headed stepchild" analogy. A few at our club shoot duelist. I think I'm the only one that's been shooting double duelist and I'm real sure I'm the only one that shoots gunfighter. The stages are often written specifically for shooting one handgun at a time. "Shooter pulls right pistol and engages targets ..... then holsters that pistol and pulls left pistol and engages targets.....".

 

 

Need to elect a new stage writer.

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I will not spot for any gunfighter that does double cocking. I'm not good enough and my ears are too bad to do it. I just hand my stick off to someone with the guts to try it.

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I will not spot for any gunfighter that does double cocking. I'm not good enough and my ears are too bad to do it. I just hand my stick off to someone with the guts to try it.

 

 

If a spotter were watching the targets and listening as they are supposed to do, how would said spotters know how a GF is cocking his pistols??????

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I will not spot for any gunfighter that does double cocking. I'm not good enough and my ears are too bad to do it. I just hand my stick off to someone with the guts to try it.

 

It's not the "double-cocking" that's a problem so much as the double/"SIMO" TRIGGER PULL/HAMMER FALL/DISCHARGE that can make it difficult to determine HITS on targets.

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The stages are often written specifically for shooting one handgun at a time. "Shooter pulls right pistol and engages targets ..... then holsters that pistol and pulls left pistol and engages targets.....".

That doesn't mean a thing to GFers..........Pistols are ten shot strings :) Time for a little edumicating ;)

 

6. Revolvers are returned to leather (re-holstered) with hammer down on a spent case or empty

chamber at the conclusion of the shooting string, unless the stage description specifically

directs otherwise; e.g., “move to next position and set gun on table or prop.” A shooting

string is defined as shots from one type of firearm prior to the next type of firearm engaged.

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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Actually if you look at the 10 shot records gf is winning by half a second. Now i think that the amazing duece, will continue to wittle that down.

My best advice as a gf is choose your posse wisely. I used to get soooo frustrated when i was called for misses that i knew i hit. Faster shooters pick up hits where slower ones dont. In my opinion is because they are used to the faster pace.

 

I used to hold back a little because i was warned i would get a p. Then i started choosing a faster posse. Now i shoot all out. My times have drastically improved

And what would you get a P for, going to fast ???

 

I agree with the "red headed stepchild" analogy. A few at our club shoot duelist. I think I'm the only one that's been shooting double duelist and I'm real sure I'm the only one that shoots gunfighter. The stages are often written specifically for shooting one handgun at a time. "Shooter pulls right pistol and engages targets ..... then holsters that pistol and pulls left pistol and engages targets.....".

so if you are a Gunfighter, then they are telling you you have to shot out of category, I don't think so.

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Offer to write some stages. That style of stage writing went out years ago.

 

Stan

 

I do belive you still see a stage or two at some bigger matches with split pistol senarios.. Not often anymore...

 

However, I will say that after coming back to the game after a 7 yr layoff, I did notice that I don't see this anywhere near as often as I used to for sure it has gotten better for the GFer Cat.

 

I also don't think that stage writters are intentionally doing anything to make it tough on GFer's, rather they just don't think about it sometimes..

 

As a GFer you learn to shoot the match as written, and do your best, this is the GFer Cat. we put our heads down and ENDEAVOR TO PERSEVERE!!! :wacko::lol::lol::lol:

 

As far as overall, that is a lightning strike or Lotto win in most cases.. Has it been done yes, very often no...

 

In my mind we should recognize the overall shooters, however I do think more emphasis should be put toward Cat. winners, as huge trophies awarded on top of the Cat trophy seems alittle redundant to me..

 

It's time to make a change from the old way when 90% of shooters where Trad style.

 

Overall = Nice plaque, + the Cat trophy you already won, put the $$$ spent on the big bronze statues toward better Cat trophies, Classic Cowboy, Gunfighter, Duelists, Frontier Cart, Etc.Etc. they work as hard as the top 3 age groups that shoot Trad style and take overall 95% of the time..

 

Recognize overall in the context of the game we now play,not the one we used to play, the diversity of the game has changed greatly over the yrs and recognition of that diversity should change as well...

 

Sorry I got of topic alittle.. :blush:

 

 

Spades H.. :ph34r: Oh yeah, that simultainiously firing of pistols rule is in my opinion to our benefit in the long run... It's already tough enough for spotters to spot for GFer's as it is.

 

I think the ( P ) penalty is the one I see them trying to give the most, as they get confused when there is no pause between guns when the fast gunfighter rattles off ten in a row... ;):lol::lol:

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If a spotter were watching the targets and listening as they are supposed to do, how would said spotters know how a GF is cocking his pistols??????

Ta Daaaa!! :D ............ How would they even know it was a GFer ;)

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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If a spotter were watching the targets and listening as they are supposed to do, how would said spotters know how a GF is cocking his pistols??????

 

 

We got some that you Only hear 5 shots being fired. And they are done. You are still there waiting on the next 5 shots

or trying to figure out what order they shot it in. Because they are shooting a 2 different targets at the exact same time.

 

Did they HIT them in the right order? Was 1 hit before 2? at the same time? 2 before 1? Who knows. because they are

pulling the trigger at the same time.

 

And don't want to hear (it is impossible to pull both and the exact same moment.) Even the fastest shooters it

sounds like only 5 shots.

 

To me. They are hurting other GFers by doing this on purpose.

 

Think it is cool to watch someone do it. But also think they are pushing the rules to far in a match

by doing it.

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^^^ Can make it very hard to spot. If there is a berm that will be impacted by a miss, the spotter has a chance to make the correct call. If no rear berm & 300 acres of tall grass behind the targets it's darned near impossible to watch 2 targets for inductions & the area behind for misses. We are getting more Outlaw shooters lately & they seem to revel at doing their best to shoot both pistols as close together as possible. Looks & sounds cool, not so much for spotters.

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