Calibers of the guns used by the real Tombstone participants, and noty the movie actors

[Nimble Fingers SASS# 25439]

Hi guys,

 

I did a search and didn't see anything but about Doc Holiday's two pistols .41 + .38, and I am having a discussion with a friend of mine on the west coast of FL. He feels that everyone at the time of the shootout at the OK Corral, well at least 50% were walking arouind with .45LC chambered guns, I am saying that only about 30% were, thinking that there were a lot more of the 44-40 + 38-40 rounds, including Doc's two above and Wirgil's being a .44 Russian maybe? Anyway I know that one of you have it right at your finger ti[ps and wouldn't mind sharing again. Thanks for the info in advance.!

 

Nimble Fingers

 

George A. Zebold

4738 Lago Vista Dr

Coconut Creek, FL 33073
Cell:954-557-8571

[Tom Bullweed]

From my small book collection:

Winchester developed the .38WCF (.38-40) in 1875.

Colt followed by offering the SAA in .38-40 in 1879.

The shootout was in late 1881 and far away from Connecticut.

 

Other likely chamberings would have been:

.44 RF (Henry cartridge but chambered in Colt open-tops and early SAA)

.44 M&H

.41 Colt (more popular than I would have guessed based on the number of photos that show up in books)

.36 and .44 C&B converted to rimfire cartridges

[Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880]

Mud Marine, who claims to have been there, swears they were all using Henry Big Boys in .45 Colt.

[Nasty Newt # 7365]

Good luck with that one. I don't think there is any consensus on the type of guns for most of the participants, let alone chamberings. Billy Clanton and Frank McLaury probably carried SAAs in 44-40. There were a couple of Winchesters that never got into the fight. I think the rest is a crap shoot. You have Doc with two pistols, most accounts say he brought only one. Who knows. But I'm interested, too, and hope you can get some answers.

[Nasty Newt # 7365]

Mud Marine, who claims to have been there, swears they were all using Henry Big Boys in .45 Colt.

[Patagonia Pete]

The link that follows is an exceptionally detailed list of firearms used in a "large" gunfight ... 11 years later.

 

http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/showthread.php?t=94380

 

While it may not be exactly the incident you are looking for ... it is kind of surprising ... and ... may give some insight to what professional gunfighters would have been using a decade earlier.

 

Pete

 

edit: spelling

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

Last i read, i didn't think that they even agreed whether Doc used a 10 or 12 gauge.

[Augustus Goodnight]

Here's part of the answer......

 

http://web.ebscohost.com/ehost/detail?vid=2&sid=342f58bf-3000-42a7-97a4-8eb0895e068d%40sessionmgr4001&hid=4112&bdata=JmF1dGh0eXBlPWdlbyZnZW9jdXN0aWQ9bnMxODY0NTcmc2l0ZT1laG9zdC1saXZlJnNjb3BlPXNpdGU%3d#db=khh&AN=5790429

 

Enjoy.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Doc's weapon of choice early in his western
career was an 1851 Colt Navy revolver given him by his uncle,
one of four. The remaining three pistols were given by Uncle John
to his own sons. Later Doc carried a nickel-plated .41 caliber
Colt Thunderer or the .38 caliber Colt Lightening, both double
action pistols. Never was Holliday's weapon of choice a shotgun,
let alone the .10 gauge Meteor "whipit" (a double-barreled shotgun
cut down to a mere 20") with which he was often credited. He used
a shotgun at the Tombstone gunfight because Virgil handed it to
him. Being slightly built and not in robust health, the idea of
Holliday's weapon of choice being a shotgun with its wicked kick
is ludicrous. In Stuart Lake's Wyatt Earp, Frontier Marshal, Wyatt
states, "Doc Holliday never carried a sawed-off shotgun into a
fight but once in his life and upon this one occasion (the Tombstone
gunfight) he threw the gun down in disgust after firing one shot
and jerked the nickel-plated Colt's which was for years his favorite
weapon."

http://www.tombstonetimes.com/stories/facts.html

 

This point is not terribly
important since in the now famous encounter of October 26,
1881, Wyatt Earp used an eight-inch .44 caliber 1869
American model Smith & Wesson. John Clum had graciously
given this finely engraved nickle-plated revolver to Wyatt
as a gift. Earp later told John Flood he had used this gun
in the street fight with the Clantons and McLaurys. Unlike
Stuart Lake, Wyatt Earp never mentioned a Colt "Buntline
Special" at any time. This Smith & Wesson revolver is
presently in the John D. Gilchriese collection.

http://www.kancoll.org/khq/1976/76_2_shillingberg.htm

 

As for the Clantons, Virgil and Morgan. I was too lazy to spend any more time researching.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Mud Marine, who claims to have been there, swears they were all using Henry Big Boys in .45 Colt.

Oh man...that's a good' n....

 

GG

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Funny, but I didn't see Mud Marine there . . . :D

 

The court record for the following trial was pretty well detailed. I thought it mentioned a little about weapons. (But I couldn't hear very well, sitting in the back of the court like I was....)

[BLACKFOOT SASS #11947]

Lee A Silva has it correct. I knew he was spot on when I got to the part about the Colt Single Action having a standard 71 inch barrel.

 

Lafitte

 

Here's part of the answer......

 

http://web.ebscohost.com/ehost/detail?vid=2&sid=342f58bf-3000-42a7-97a4-8eb0895e068d%40sessionmgr4001&hid=4112&bdata=JmF1dGh0eXBlPWdlbyZnZW9jdXN0aWQ9bnMxODY0NTcmc2l0ZT1laG9zdC1saXZlJnNjb3BlPXNpdGU%3d#db=khh&AN=5790429

 

Enjoy.

[Madd Mike #8595]

many of the court documents are on display

when you visit the old court house in tombstone

prutty dry reading, so I did not read them all

perhaps the cal's may be imbedded in those docs

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Since, at the time, the fracas was just "another shooting" I'd serously doubt anybody cared what caliber guns anyone was shooting. Most non-involved folks just wanted to get out of the way. Historacly, after a shooting, the dead guys gun(s) were just the own into a box and sold off or given away at some later date.

The shoot out at the OK only became a historical incident some years later.

 

Coffinmaker

[Augustus Goodnight]

Lee A Silva has it correct. I knew he was spot on when I got to the part about the Colt Single Action having a standard 71 inch barrel.

 

Lafitte

I saw that too and thought it had to be a typo.

[Four-Eyed Buck,SASS #14795]

Had to be a typo, and not Lee's either

[Nimble Fingers SASS# 25439]

Had to edit my original post, and thank you all for your replies. So I can honestly go back and say to my friend that at the time of the Gunfight at OK Corral, much less than 50% of all the cowboys, law officers and general by-standers were shooting .45 Long Colt? Thanks

 

Nimble Fingers

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Had to edit my original post, and thank you all for your replies. So I can honestly go back and say to my friend that at the time of the Gunfight at OK Corral, much less than 50% of all the cowboys, law officers and general by-standers were shooting .45 Long Colt? Thanks

 

Nimble Fingers

 

You can safely say that none of the participants at the OK Corral were shooting .45 Long Colt. As that was not and has not been an official name of the .45 Colt cartridge.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Slowhand Bob, 24229]

Lacking proof otherwise would probably leave the 45 Colt in a good position as the caliber of choice by a lot of pistoleros of the day. As someone mentioner earlier, some of the mentioned calibers were actually still pretty new at the time of the shootout. As to the 38 pistol and smaller revolver calibers, though possibly popular for some elements, I would bet that fighting men would have considered them as secondary back-ups or hideouts. Never compared the modern 9mm or 38spl to any of the old small caliber bp rounds of the 1800s BUT I would bet they would not have been very potent as a fight stopper. Due to its military lineage, the old 45Colt would have had a lot going for its side of the argument in those days. As far as seeing anything here, so far, you have very little argument settling information to take back with you! This is the "I think" sort of stuff that makes for the best dead horse whupping contests ever.

[diablo slim]

My question was bigger better?....45 vs 44 or 38/40 ...the fact that no 45 Colt cal rifles were

made makes me believe they were second to the 44/38 caliber as practical.

[Ramblin Gambler]

45 colt rifles weren't made because colt wouldn't allow any other gun maker to chamber a gun in their cartridge. A tactical mistake by colt, to be sure. By the time they could, the 44-40 had already been invented and was very popular.

 

 

[Ramblin Gambler]

I read an article a long long time ago that was a retelling of the gunfight based on the police reports filed. He wrote the article in such a way as to purposely obfuscate which encounter he was describing, so he referred to the guns by their calibers. I remember most of the cops seemed to have 45's. Anyway, I can't find the article now, I only bring it up because I recall that the author said it all came from police reports and statements. So the information might be out there, if you can find it, and if you trust the earp's version of the story.

 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

45 colt rifles weren't made because colt wouldn't allow any other gun maker to chamber a gun in their cartridge. A tactical mistake by colt, to be sure. By the time they could, the 44-40 had already been invented and was very popular.

 

I believe this is a bad misunderstanding of the technology and patent issues that were involved with chambering rifles in a given caliber.

 

Mostly rifles were not chambered for 45 Colt because the folded case head and thin copper cases that existed for the first 20 years of 45 Colt ammo manufacturing would not support being extracted by the rim. They HAD to be extracted by a rod punching out the case from inside.

 

Colt and Smith & Wesson had much bigger patent disputes than did Colt and Winchester. Because Colt and Winchester companies were on fairly good terms, this allowed Colt to start making Frontier Six-Shooters (1873 Colt revolvers chambered in 44 WCF) by about 1877.

 

And, Colt and Winchester invented their two namesake cartridges at almost exactly the same time. Both were some of the very first centerfires, and were the first for each of those two companies. To say that one caused or opened the door for the other would be wrong. What "caused" them was the need for a more powerful cartridge than the rim fires, and the development of a central primer that could be inserted into the case head. By Berdan in March 1866 (pat. date) and Boxer in Oct 1866 (pat. date). Another case of two different firearms technologies being developed in the same year.

 

Good luck, GJ

[guitar_slinger]

My question was bigger better?....45 vs 44 or 38/40 ...the fact that no 45 Colt cal rifles were

made makes me believe they were second to the 44/38 caliber as practical.

I seriously doubt the fellow getting shot by any of them much cared one way or the other.

 

A big heavy slow moving lead slug to the body core in those days was pretty much a mortal wound regardless of caliber. If the victim didn't bleed out from the wound, infection and other complications would kill him.

 

Wouldn't want to get shot by anything today or back then. However, today, you might well live if you get to a hospital before you bleed out. Back then, not so much.

 

GS

[Rye Miles #13621]

I know one thing fer sure, they weren't using Rugers or Ubertis!!

[Red Hooker]

I read an article a long long time ago that was a retelling of the gunfight based on the police reports filed. He wrote the article in such a way as to purposely obfuscate which encounter he was describing, so he referred to the guns by their calibers. I remember most of the cops seemed to have 45's. Anyway, I can't find the article now, I only bring it up because I recall that the author said it all came from police reports and statements. So the information might be out there, if you can find it, and if you trust the earp's version of the story.

Probably Masaad Ayoob in Guns or American Handgunner

[Tom Bullweed]

In 'Wyatt Earp Speaks', a recent release of newspaper articles, court records and other documents around Wyatt Earp's time, he stated that the 10-gage was used for work in the country (like stage coach guarding) and the 12-gage was best used in town. His reason was that the 10-gage put out too much smoke inside a dark room like a barroom in the evening. After the first shot, no one could see anything.

[Joe LaFives #5481]

Since, at the time, the fracas was just "another shooting" I'd serously doubt anybody cared what caliber guns anyone was shooting. Most non-involved folks just wanted to get out of the way. Historacly, after a shooting, the dead guys gun(s) were just the own into a box and sold off or given away at some later date.

The shoot out at the OK only became a historical incident some years later.

 

Coffinmaker

Absolutely NOT the case in Arizona. This was an extremely high profile event for the period, as evidenced by the two newspaper articles, the funeral parade and well covered trial.

[Blackey Cole]

What surprised me in the Johnson county war records that no one I saw carried a rifle in the same caliber as their handgun. I checked several 38wcf rifles and all had 45colt revolvers there were only a couple 44wcf. Those are the only two calibers that were used that could be the same caliber but not one was. Seems the 45 was the popular revolver round but no one carried the 38&44wcf round revolvers.

[Ramblin Gambler]

Probably Masaad Ayoob in Guns or American Handgunner

Could be. My first guess was Massad Ayoob in Shooting Times (Because I know I used to take that magazine, not so sure about any others). But it also could have been someone like Bill Jordan, so I deleted my guess.

 

What surprised me in the Johnson county war records that no one I saw carried a rifle in the same caliber as their handgun. I checked several 38wcf rifles and all had 45colt revolvers there were only a couple 44wcf. Those are the only two calibers that were used that could be the same caliber but not one was. Seems the 45 was the popular revolver round but no one carried the 38&44wcf round revolvers.

I don't think it was as common as we believe to have rifles and pistols in the same caliber. Sure it makes perfect sense, and there were probably lots of people who wanted to do that. But it may have been hard enough to get a gun that most folks had to take what they could get.

[Slowhand Bob, 24229]

I would think that the 44 Henry rimfire was the first practical set-up for a revolver and lever-gun and might have had some limited use by men of the gun BUT like ole Josie Wales, they would have badly needed a real rile caliber on the pack horse. By the time Colt chambered their SAA for 44-40 the time for such nonsense had passed. Why accept a '73 rifle caliber when the newer '76 was around and was so much more capable of offering true rifle performance for the times? The dual caliber thing sounds real cool BUT I would think that one would figure better, real quick, under practical circumstances BUT it is a cool concept for playing SASS on limited size gun ranges.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Folks had never had owned a rifle and revolver in the same caliber before. Why do we think they started doing so in a big way in the 1870's?

 

The 1877 issue of the Colt Frontier SixShooter was a totally NEW concept to folks, and it took several years before serious shooters even thought it might be a great idea.

 

My guess is that most folks either had a revolver or they had a rifle. On a farm or ranch, most always a rifle and a shotgun - the varmints to be handled were not two legged but four, or winged.

 

 

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

Doc's weapon of choice early in his western

career was an 1851 Colt Navy revolver given him by his uncle,

one of four.

 

I don't see the relevance of him having four uncles.

[Rye Miles #13621]

 

I don't see the relevance of him having four uncles.

[Assassin]

Mud Marine has a .41 calibre Thunderer or Lightning, watched him shoot in Cody years ago, might be one of Doc's pistols. Ask Mud Marine about the Whooping Crane decoys in the basement of his families ranch house. He's got some great stories.