Should you make the call?

[Wyatt]

The stage calls for starting with the shotgun 4+. With permission for the TO you load 2 and make ready.

 

With the shotgun loaded ready to fire shooter moves both feet, to get a better shooting stance, prior to the starting line being said/timer being activated..........should you make the call?

 

At this time I am NOT including the rest of the stage but will be glad to if requested

 

Wyatt

[McCandless]

Starting with the shotgun loaded, and closed... which means cocked... before the timer starts. That is terrible stage writing.

[Dang It Dan 13202]

Starting with the shotgun loaded, and closed... which means cocked... before the timer starts. That is terrible stage writing.

 

Actually, this start has been done a lot in the past and at some very big matches. I don't think that it's "terrible" stage writing that is the main question here. The question is that after the shooter has made the shotgun "hot", he/she notices that they should be standing a bit to the left, or right, or back or whatever so they make an adjustment and move their feet just a bit. At that point, is this a penalty??

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Has the stage started for the shooter since a round has not gone downrange?

[Nasty Newt # 7365]

Has the stage started for the shooter since a round has not gone downrange?

The plot thickens...

[Cypress Sun]

Starting with the shotgun loaded, and closed... which means cocked... before the timer starts. That is terrible stage writing.

 

Terrible stage writing it is not. The question remains..........

[Seldom Seen #16162]

Hummm....if the shooter has a bee flying around his face before the buzzer sounds should he take a hand off the shotgun to shoo the bee away or should he let it bee, let it bee?

[Manassas Jack]

Moving with a live round under the hammer is just that. If the shooter opens the shotgun before moving it is a no call.

This all should have been mentioned in the stage description so that the shooters would be aware of the risk.

[Short Term Emory]

SDQ, as defined in RO1, pg19. Movement is not allowed with loaded, cocked firearm. Movement is defined by the basketball "traveling" rule, where when shooter has a loaded, cocked firearm in hand, at least one foot has to remain in place on the ground. Since the shooter moved "both" feet, it's a stage DQ.

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

The stage calls for starting with the shotgun 4+. With permission for the TO you load 2 and make ready.

 

With the shotgun loaded ready to fire shooter moves both feet, to get a better shooting stance, prior to the starting line being said/timer being activated..........should you make the call?

 

At this time I am NOT including the rest of the stage but will be glad to if requested

 

Wyatt

The "traveling rule" wasn't implemented for a situation such as this.

 

This is not a typical starting position. Starting with a loaded, cocked shotgun in hand is allowed under SASS rules but is far from common.

 

Warn the shooter and run him thru the stage. Strongly make the point to the rest of the posse and because it is not a typical start, warn each shooter before they load their shotgun, if they choose to.

 

Next shooter.

 

Fillmore

[Krazy Kajun]

The stage calls for starting with the shotgun 4+. With permission for the TO you load 2 and make ready.

 

With the shotgun loaded ready to fire shooter moves both feet, to get a better shooting stance, prior to the starting line being said/timer being activated..........should you make the call?

 

At this time I am NOT including the rest of the stage but will be glad to if requested

 

Wyatt

Assumption here...since the OP did not say so...let's assume this is a SxS shotgun. Given that...again to the OP, if it was a SxS was the action closed? "Loaded ready to fire" would seem to imply the action was closed but just making sure. If indeed it is a SxS and the action was closed indicating a round was under the hammer it is a SDQ. SASS rules plainly state that the traveling rule is in effect so movement in excess of the traveling rule would be an SDQ.

 

Think of it this away, what would the call be if a shooter had a pistol round under the hammer when leaving the loading table...wouldn't that be a SDQ? Round under the hammer is just that...shouldn'[t matter what type of gun...pistol, rifle or shotgun.

 

Now, if the action was not closed does the range rules allow for "loading on the run?" If so and the action was not closed I would think it would be a no call.

 

Now that my neck is out there on the chopping block...a question to DD and Wyatt and some of the other FL shooters...I have only been shooting SASS for two years so I have never been to a regular SASS match (not WB) where you can start with the shotgun loaded and the action closed. If this is allowable why would a stagewritier put that into a match...especially a major one. I'm just curious.

 

Krazy Kajun

 

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

We do that on occasion and are told not to move our feet once the shotgun is closed.

[Cat Brules]

The stage calls for starting with the shotgun 4+. With permission for the TO you load 2 and make ready.

 

With the shotgun loaded ready to fire shooter moves both feet, to get a better shooting stance, prior to the starting line being said/timer being activated..........should you make the call?

 

At this time I am NOT including the rest of the stage but will be glad to if requested

 

Wyatt

With permission for the TO you load 2 and make ready

 

I assume that phrase is supposed to be, "with permission from the TO."

 

I think that putting a shooter in the position of having to load his weapon off the clock, then disquaifying him for adjusting his stance slightly prior to the beep, really is poor stage writing. I think it's only natural to assume one stance while loading the weapon and then, to adjust the stance slightly to assume a quasi-shooting position (i.e. "make ready"), especially since he'd probably do that anyway after the beep.

 

It also seems to me that aside from hopping into the air so that both feet are in the air at the same time, or executing a few tango dance steps, he met the standard of keeping one foot stationary while moving the other, as he adjusted his stance.

 

Obviously, I wasn't there, so I don't know what really happened, or the call for this. Since it is posted, though I assume some call was made for moving the feet. However, I'd say, "NO CALL."

[Captain Bill Burt]

ROI page 25 under SDQ "Changing location with a live round under a cocked hammer or a gun with the hammer down on a live round."

 

ROI page 17

"Safe for movement shotgun in hand only

• Action open, round in chamber or on carrier

• Hammer(s) fully down on empty chamber(s) or expended round(s), action

closed.

12. The shooter with firearm in hand shall never be allowed to move with a live round under a cocked hammer. Movement is defined the same as “traveling” in basketball. Once the firearm is cocked, one foot must remain in place on the ground until the firearm is made safe."

 

Looks like an SDQ to me, safety rules are always in effect, as KK pointed out leaving the loading able with a live round under a cocked hammer would be an SDQ, why not this? Or think of it this way, if a person moving with a loaded cocked shotgun while the clock is running constitutes a hazard, how does the fact the clock isn't running change that?

[Wyatt]

Let's see if I can make this clear..........with proper spellin

 

The question is, in this case, can you receive a SDQ prior to being on the clock

 

Wyatt

 

PS: The folks that were involved in the discussion are WELL aware of the current rule

 

 

 

 

[Dirty Chris]

We have stages starting like that around here, I would say it's fairly common. Usually it's mentioned when reading the stage to make sure both feet are set before closing the action on the loaded gun. If I'm running the timer I always remind the shooter again before they close the gun to make sure they have their feet set and are in position. I certainly wouldn't call it horrible stage writing, most shooters seem to enjoy starting a stage like that every once in a while, and we rarely have a problem with it.

[Yusta B.]

Let's see if I can make this clear..........with proper spellin

 

The question is, in this case, can you receive a SDQ prior to being on the clock

 

Wyatt

 

PS: The folks that were involved in the discussion are WELL aware of the current rule

 

 

Sure you can get a safety penalty prior to the beep. Have an AD at the loading table & see what happens.

[Captain Bill Burt]

That's an easy one Wyatt, come to the firing line with the hammer of your rifle cocked and you get a stage DQ, drop a loaded gun while staging it and you get a MDQ, and so forth.

[Ace_of_Hearts]

More to the point.....

 

Try walking away from the loading table with loaded pistols in your holster because you forgot something in your gun cart!

 

You don't have to be on the clock to get a SDQ

 

Stages can be written very easily where you can load two but DO NOT CLOSE your shotgun.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Yep, SDQ. You are "at the line" from the time you load your first round at the loading table. Committing a SDQ penalized action from that point until cleared at the unloading table, earns you the penalty.

 

That is why it is IMPORTANT to remind the shooters, before anyone goes to the line on that stage, of the impact of accepting the stage's starting position. If the shooter is concerned, then leave the shotgun action open until the buzzer goes off. At a recent annual match, I and probably half of the other shooters did just that rather than confuse myself/ourselves with a challenging and unfamiliar starting string.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

Have we lost sight of "benefit of the doubt" in this conversation? The OP states the shooter moves both feet. What does moves mean?

 

The shooter is under supervision of the TO and performing an unorthodox, IMHO, start. I'd be more concerned about the shooter touching the trigger in this situation than if he's shuffling his feet.

 

Sure, technically if the shooter takes 2 steps it warrants a DQ but does the shooter take a step here or does he merely, move his feet?

 

Fillmore

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Let's see if I can make this clear..........with proper spellin

 

The question is, in this case, can you receive a SDQ prior to being on the clock

 

Wyatt

 

PS: The folks that were involved in the discussion are WELL aware of the current rule

 

YES...note that it is a SDQ for moving from the LT to the staging point (before the "beep") with a cocked/loaded rifle, even if there is no round under the hammer.

 

22. Movement is not allowed with a loaded, cocked firearm. Movement is defined by the basketball “traveling” rule. Whenever a shooter has a loaded, cocked firearm in hand, at least one foot must remain in place on the ground. 1st violation will result in a Stage Disqualification; 2nd violation will result in a Match Disqualification. This includes leaving the loading table with a cocked loaded firearm.

SHB p.23 / RO1 p.19

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

Sounds like this stage and the permission "for" TO are most likely starting the shooter in a faulting position.

I don't think the TO is supposed to start a shooter in a faulted position.

 

I wonder how many stages are written where the shooter does NOT move his/her feet at all prior to shooting.

 

Looks like a bad stage directions to permit the shotgun to be loaded (and "closed" I presume?)

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Have we lost sight of "benefit of the doubt" in this conversation? The OP states the shooter moves both feet. What does moves mean?

Benefit of WHAT DOUBT??

Shooter violated the "basketball traveling rule" with a cocked/loaded firearm.

 

The shooter is under supervision of the TO and performing an unorthodox, IMHO, start. I'd be more concerned about the shooter touching the trigger in this situation than if he's shuffling his feet.

 

Sure, technically if the shooter takes 2 steps it warrants a DQ but does the shooter take a step here or does he merely, move his feet?

Fillmore

 

Basketball Traveling rule aka movement with a firearm. Once the firearm is cocked, one foot must remain in place on the ground until the firearm is made safe. This means, on revolvers, you may move, restage, or re-holster when the hammer is down on an empty chamber or expended case. You may move with a rifle or shotgun when the action is open or hammer(s) down on an empty chamber(s) or an expended case(s).

RO1 "Glossary of Terms" p.29

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Yep, SDQ. You are "at the line" from the time you load your first round at the loading table. Committing a SDQ penalized action from that point until cleared at the unloading table, earns you the penalty.

 

That is why it is IMPORTANT to remind the shooters, before anyone goes to the line on that stage, of the impact of accepting the stage's starting position. If the shooter is concerned, then leave the shotgun action open until the buzzer goes off. At a recent annual match, I and probably half of the other shooters did just that rather than confuse myself/ourselves with a challenging and unfamiliar starting string.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

Smart move.

[Lead Ringer]

This type of start is just asking for such a problem. In 3 1/2 years of cowboy action, I've never started with a gun loaded, cocked and ready to go boom. I've started with shells in the tubes or on the carrier, but never closed.

What is the purpose? I can't see any benefits to this technique? Maybe somebody can tell me why this is a good idea?

Ringer

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

I don't like this type of start position either, I've seen several DQs when this type of start was used.... It's a gottcha type situation,,,, just don't care for it,,,,

 

two of the dqs were at the same state shoot, and were by ladies loading 97s, one shot the table and the other laid the loaded cocked 97 down to reposition her hands or something like that...both were experienced shooters too,,,

 

Myself I wouldn't write this type of start into a stage...

 

CC

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

IMO, if such a starting position is to be used, it would be a good idea to include words of caution in the stage instructions making it clear that there is a penalty. I've seen stages started like this and when I see it, I make it a point to bring it to the attention of the posse. I personally don't care for it simply because it puts people out of their normal comfort zone...where they can do the shuffle before the buzzer. Just because I don't care for it doesn't mean it can't be done.

[Wyatt]

Fer the record that's the way I have always seen it....SDQ

 

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with this starting position with proper education. Occasionally this starting position comes up and it catches folks unaware. Reading some of the responces I see some folks have not come across this starting position and this will give them some food fer thought. It's kind of and old school, apparently regional, thing.

 

Wyatt

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

I thinks its a perfectly fine starting position,I've used it and seen it used have not seen a problem,when I first started we would move during a rifle string or even during a pistol string from window to window,many things we dont do now because folks cant handle it,cant handle a loaded cocked firearm shooter made a mistake probaly wont do it again.

 

 

 

regards AO

[Czexican Dave]

Maybe I dreamed it, but didn't we start a stage at 2012 EOT with shotgun loaded and closed?

[Doc Shapiro]

Yes, you should make the call.

[McCandless]

Yep, it can be done. But, there needs to be a caution given and an observant RO to coach folks through.

We do have a fair amount of folks that don't shoot much, haven't shot much, and need an eyeball on when they do shoot. We gotta remember them.

that said...

Some of the funnest stages I've shot have been run n' gun, with a fire some with the rifle, run down-range, (hammer down on an empty) fire some more.

That was at Last Stand, in Fla.

Same with pistol...

wish there were more like that.

But, if yer gonna start off with a cocked and loaded gun, finger on the trigger, before the beep... people better know that the same rules apply as after the beep...

and PLANT YER FEET, WATCH YER MUZZLE, and DON'T BE "ADJUSTING" YER TRIGGER FIMGER!

 

Yes, make the call!

 

Good night everybody!

McC

[Dang It Dan 13202]

Well I gotta say.....

 

I am usually in agreement especially with PWB, but in this case I think it's chicken $hit. A shooter comes to the line, loads two as directed, decides to move (and I am not guessing here 'cause I was the one with the timer in my hand) about six inches back and I am supposed to give him a SDQ? Bullsquat. This rule was implimented to keep folks from moving, and when I say "moving" I mean during the heat of the stage, with a loaded cocked gun because our founding fathers didn't think we have enough prowess as shooters to keep from discharging the gun accidentally (which is also bullsquat). It was not meant to be applied for this kind of "starting" position.

 

I don't really care what rules may say in this instance because I don't think that is the intent of the rule. Shooters adjust their feet all the time in small increments before actually stating that they are ready. I just don't see this applying here.

 

Furthermore, at EOT this year at the "jail" stage they stated that shuffling your feet during the stage in order to adjust your sight angle was not a SDQ. I see this as no different.

 

Respectfully,

 

Dang It Dan

[Goody, SASS #26190]

Well I gotta say.....

 

I am usually in agreement especially with PWB, but in this case I think it's chicken $hit. A shooter comes to the line, loads two as directed, decides to move (and I am not guessing here 'cause I was the one with the timer in my hand) about six inches back and I am supposed to give him a SDQ? Bullsquat. This rule was implimented to keep folks from moving, and when I say "moving" I mean during the heat of the stage, with a loaded cocked gun because our founding fathers didn't think we have enough prowess as shooters to keep from discharging the gun accidentally (which is also bullsquat). It was not meant to be applied for this kind of "starting" position.

 

I don't really care what rules may say in this instance because I don't think that is the intent of the rule. Shooters adjust their feet all the time in small increments before actually stating that they are ready. I just don't see this applying here.

 

Furthermore, at EOT this year at the "jail" stage they stated that shuffling your feet during the stage in order to adjust your sight angle was not a SDQ. I see this as no different.

 

Respectfully,

 

Dang It Dan

 

I'm with you on this. Many times I see shooters arrange their feet, not only on the shotgun, but with any gun after cocking. It can be first or last gun, doesn't matter. As an TO I won't allow them to move from one place to the next. But I make no call for the shuffling in one spot. I will usually follow them to the unloading table, particuarly newer shooters. I will remind them what the rules are and suggest that they be sure they are where they want to be before making the gun ready to fire.