Should you make the call?

[McCandless]

I think the rule was written so you don't move with a loaded gun........like running or walking and yes even one little baby step. But again simply scooting your feet or widening your stance to prepare to shoot STILL seems like a Barney Fife view of life too me. I have also seen RO's in these situations pay more attention to the shooters feet as they anxiously wait for the upcoming SDQ trap to happen and ignore gun handling etc....that could really cause a safety issue.

 

Don't get me wrong if I shoot at a club that has this type of stage I'll follow the rules…….but as you can see it won't be fair across the board because opinions differ and that's the bigger problem.

 

So to make it fair you have to call a move that isn't unsafe unsafe to keep everyone happy. So a guy slides both feet 2 inches and you send him away with a SDQ........I still don't like it. Too me that is the same mentality as kicking a 5 year old out of school for bringing a miniature green water pistol to show & tell. And yes.....They do that too…….but I'm not sure I prefer that mentality better than using common sense and applying it to given situation.

 

My point is when I write stages especially for a BIG match I like to rule problems out rather than introduce them in……it just makes for a much better match IMO.

 

Thank you CJ...

Yes, it's not really unsafe movement... but right now it's "against the rules" movement. That's why I thought it wasn't really good stage writing. (But, I've often been wrong, and get corrected often.)

But, unless you have the same Stage Marshall calling it the same way for everybody the entire match, I can see trouble, Like some said... how much movement is too much? When is a shuffle a step?... should it be called at all?. It needs one person to make the call...or not... consistently throughout the match, and not left to multiple RO's and Spotters across a bunch of posse's. Especially in regions where this type of start is rarely used.

 

 

 

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Folks,

 

I think it would be wiser to leave loaded doubles or '87s open and/or put the rounds in the tube of a '97 or '87 until the beep. This way the shooter is safe to "shuffle" under current rules.

 

When I first started shooting, the concept of a "shooting box" that PWB described was still in use. That is another solution.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Snakebite]

I don't believe that there would be many folks that disagreed that some of the rules need work. However.. you guys that bash those who follow the rules, are just wrong. It's not Chicken $hit to follow the rules... regardless of what you believe. If you can't follow the rules then you should not take on the job of T.O.

 

Now... all that being said.. If you are the T.O., then the call belongs to you. If you "Didn't see any change of location", then make your call accordingly and MOVE ON. All this baloney about being CS doesn't change a thing. Don't "See a change in location" and then refuse to enforce it. You have to enforce all the rules, not just the ones that you agree with. And one more thing, don't expect the ROC to tell you not to enforce the rules. They have no choice other than to quote the rules... how you handle it is up to you.

 

Snakebite

[Captain Bill Burt]

I don't believe that there would be many folks that disagreed that some of the rules need work. However.. you guys that bash those who follow the rules, are just wrong. It's not Chicken $hit to follow the rules... regardless of what you believe. If you can't follow the rules then you should not take on the job of T.O.

 

Now... all that being said.. If you are the T.O., then the call belongs to you. If you "Didn't see any change of location", then make your call accordingly and MOVE ON. All this baloney about being CS doesn't change a thing. Don't "See a change in location" and then refuse to enforce it. You have to enforce all the rules, not just the ones that you agree with. And one more thing, don't expect the ROC to tell you not to enforce the rules. They have no choice other than to quote the rules... how you handle it is up to you.

 

Snakebite

+1, thank you.

[Happy Jack, SASS #20451]

To further clarify my earlier post, I said at MY match it would be a no call. I would annonce it just like at EOT. IF I am somewhere else that doesn't clarify it as a no call I would make the call according to the rulebook. I don't really like the rule, just like I don't like the empty in an open long gun but I WOULD make the call.

[Snakebite]

Hap... I have no doubt what-so-ever that you would make the right call.

 

IMO, shuffling one's feet around to get off a rock or a hull or good footing, is not changing locations, it is a safety issue. Taking a step and then dragging the planted foot up to the other IS changing locations.

 

Snakebite

[Max Montana, SASS #23907]

This is a perfectly acceptable starting position. Part of this game is schooling youself on certain disciplines. One of them is to not move both feet when a round is in a closed shotgun. Before the beep, after the beep and even if the TO yells MOVE!.

 

 

That being said, I too recognized long ago that there was a difference between moving and a simple "foot adjustment" involved in this particular situation. The rule is clear, but here's how I handle the situation. As a posse member, I leave it to the timer and spotters. With the timer in my hand, I say to the shooter, "when ready, set your feet, load, and close your shotgun," a helpful reminder. As a spotter, I call a SDQ when the shooter takes a full step with both feet. If the shooter spreads his feet without changing location I don't call a SDQ.

 

When shooting a '97 I always load two into the magazine when instructed, with hammer down on empty chamber, then take my shooting position and when aimed, rack one into chamber and say starting line.

 

Again, I know the rule is clear and many would disagree that I'm not calling it properly, but I do allow a smidgeon of leeway on this type of starting position.

 

I would also add that I don't call an SDQ when a shooter stops but his feet slide on the grass, mud, gravel, or ice or when a shooter picks up a rifle cocks it and steps with ONLY the front foot(back foot doesn't move) forward deeper into a window then after a few shots while attempting to aim at an extremely wide side target causing him to move his back foot a step to the side. Both feet moved, not at the same time and not changing location.

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

Hap... I have no doubt what-so-ever that you would make the right call.

 

IMO, shuffling one's feet around to get off a rock or a hull or good footing, is not changing locations, it is a safety issue. Taking a step and then dragging the planted foot up to the other IS changing locations.

 

Snakebite

 

Agreed, I think most of us are talking about shuffling,not stepping.

[Blastmaster]

Hap... I have no doubt what-so-ever that you would make the right call.

 

IMO, shuffling one's feet around to get off a rock or a hull or good footing, is not changing locations, it is a safety issue. Taking a step and then dragging the planted foot up to the other IS changing locations.

 

Snakebite

 

 

shuffling present participle of shuf·fle (Verb)

Verb

• Walk by dragging one's feet along or without lifting them fully from the ground.
• Shift one's position while sitting or move one's feet while standing, typically because of boredom, nervousness, or embarrassment.

Perfectly fine to reposition/pivot/step with one foot (basketball rule) to get off a rock or casing for better stability, or to get a better sight picture.

Shooter can reposition, but the firearm can not be cocked.(except for open empty SG.)

In my experience, either the person has stayed planted with cocked firearm or they have really traveled with a very deliberate step.

I have not witnessed anyone getting penalized by doing the basketball plant/pivot with one foot/toe firmly planted and that toe just happened to move a fraction of an inch.

I have seen about one penalty on a sxs shooter that had to reload, shoot one to finish the string and took off before getting the sxs open to empty the live round out of barrel #2.

Rule is fine ,as is, in my opinion

[Blastmaster]

Hap... I have no doubt what-so-ever that you would make the right call.

 

IMO, shuffling one's feet around to get off a rock or a hull or good footing, is not changing locations, it is a safety issue. Taking a step and then dragging the planted foot up to the other IS changing locations.

 

Snakebite

 

 

shuffling present participle of shuf·fle (Verb)

Verb

• Walk by dragging one's feet along or without lifting them fully from the ground.
• Shift one's position while sitting or move one's feet while standing, typically because of boredom, nervousness, or embarrassment.

 

Perfectly fine to reposition/pivot/step with one foot (basketball rule) to get off a rock or casing for better stability, or to get a better sight picture.

 

Shooter can reposition, but the firearm can not be cocked.(except for open empty SG.)

 

In my experience, either the person has stayed planted with cocked firearm or they have really traveled with a very deliberate step.

 

I have not witnessed anyone getting penalized by doing the basketball plant/pivot with one foot/toe firmly planted and that toe just happened to move a fraction of an inch.

 

I have seen about one penalty on a sxs shooter that had to reload, shoot one to finish the string and took off before getting the sxs open to empty the live round out of barrel #2.

 

Rule is fine ,as is, in my opinion

 

Edit: If you are shuffling because of muscle memory, then you have programmed your muscle memory incorrectly.

[Wyatt]

Without changing the rules the best idea seems to be throw in the "shuffling OK" in the stage description/local rules. Otherwise it becomes a.......if the rifle is not closed it's open or how far away from the loading table with loaded firearms is too far call

 

Wyatt who agrees with how it is explained in the RO III handbook ;)/>

[Snakebite]

Without changing the rules the best idea seems to be throw in the "shuffling OK" in the stage description/local rules. Otherwise it becomes a.......if the rifle is not closed it's open or how far away from the loading table with loaded firearms is too far call

 

Wyatt who agrees with how it is explained in the RO III handbook ;)/>/>/>/>/>

Wyatt, I mean no disrespect, but IMO, the best thing to do is to leave it alone and get the Timer Operators to do their job and make the call. Some of them need to quit whinning and waiting for every possible situation to be covered by yet another rule, or stop waiting for someone else to make the call for them. They need to use their good Judgement and common sense, then MAKE THE CALL. If they can't do that, then they are not the person who should have the timer.

 

Sure... sometimes they will be wrong, that is where the appeals process come into play. Any R.O. or the shooter can challenge the call and appeal it.

 

Snakebite

[Wyatt]

Snakebite, trust me on this, the Pards I shoot with on a regular basis have the stones to make right calls. Rules can be changed or modified as a need arises. That's why we have an RO committee, open discussion on the wire and vote on rule changes from time to time.

 

Wyatt