Should you make the call?

[John E. Law]

Well I gotta say.....

 

I am usually in agreement especially with PWB, but in this case I think it's chicken $hit. A shooter comes to the line, loads two as directed, decides to move (and I am not guessing here 'cause I was the one with the timer in my hand) about six inches back and I am supposed to give him a SDQ? Bullsquat. This rule was implimented to keep folks from moving, and when I say "moving" I mean during the heat of the stage, with a loaded cocked gun because our founding fathers didn't think we have enough prowess as shooters to keep from discharging the gun accidentally (which is also bullsquat). It was not meant to be applied for this kind of "starting" position.

 

I don't really care what rules may say in this instance because I don't think that is the intent of the rule. Shooters adjust their feet all the time in small increments before actually stating that they are ready. I just don't see this applying here.

 

Furthermore, at EOT this year at the "jail" stage they stated that shuffling your feet during the stage in order to adjust your sight angle was not a SDQ. I see this as no different.

 

Respectfully,

 

Dang It Dan

 

I know I'm a little biased here since I was the shooter Wyatt was refering to, but I have to agree with Dan on this. I am not some newby shooter who doesn't know the rules. I knew the penalty as soon as I realized what I had just done, but I still don't agree with it. When we prep for a stage we make small adjustments to get ready. "Loaded on the clock pointed at the target" is not a "normal" stage start. As soon as I got into position I realized I did not have me feet comfortably in the right position (just like I would have in my normal pre-stage prep) and due to "muscle memory" I shuffled my feet. My finger was not on the trigger (just like when my action is open and empty) as I was coming up to the target, and out of habit I shuffled my feet. I knew as soon as I did it that it was a SDQ. Fortunately for me, wether you agree or not, I was allowed to shoot the stage. Even though I was completely ready to accept the SDQ, but I 100% agree with Dan's post.

 

 

JEL

[Lead Ringer]

Maybe I dreamed it, but didn't we start a stage at 2012 EOT with shotgun loaded and closed?

I just found the stage. It was stage 9, bay 11. I need to make a correction to my previous post. I had claimed to never have started that way before. I think I was mistaken, since I've shot that stage at EOT. I do recall and have notes in my book stating it was optional.

It doesn't change my dislike for that type of start.

Ringer

[Blastmaster]

I know I'm a little biased here since I was the shooter Wyatt was refering to, but I have to agree with Dan on this. I am not some newby shooter who doesn't know the rules. I knew the penalty as soon as I realized what I had just done, but I still don't agree with it. When we prep for a stage we make small adjustments to get ready. "Loaded on the clock pointed at the target" is not a "normal" stage start. As soon as I got into position I realized I did not have me feet comfortably in the right position (just like I would have in my normal pre-stage prep) and due to "muscle memory" I shuffled my feet. My finger was not on the trigger (just like when my action is open and empty) as I was coming up to the target, and out of habit I shuffled my feet. I knew as soon as I did it that it was a SDQ. Fortunately for me, wether you agree or not, I was allowed to shoot the stage. Even though I was completely ready to accept the SDQ, but I 100% agree with Dan's post.

 

 

JEL

 

 

Was it a monthly shoot?

 

No problem with allowing shooter to shoot the stage.

 

And we all know what one needs to do if one wants to change or add a rule.

 

 

[Wyatt]

I would not be opposed to an Addendum to the current rule.....and maybe it's time

 

Wyatt

[Captain Bill Burt]

I would not be opposed to an Addendum to the current rule.....and maybe it's time

 

Wyatt

Nor would I be opposed to a change. However modesty and being an ROII would compel me to enforce the rules as they are currently written. If a person feels entitled to change or modify this rule because they disagree with it, then where do they draw the line? What other rules will be changed on the fly? Furthermore what happens when Posse Marshal number 1 enforces the rule as written and SDQs someone and Posse Marshal number 2 gives a different shooter a pass? Do we have a meeting before the match and discuss which rules we're going to modify on that particular day?

[Cowboy Junky]

Well.......I got caught in this trap myself........lol. I like Dang its chicken Sh%$ reference the best. The problem IMO is you have a shooter at the line gun in both hands on the shoulder pointing safely down range at the targets and they widen their stance a bit to settle in a now they get a SDQ.......there is a difference in almost subconsciously widening your stance a few iches while preparing to shoot and consciously taking a step or walking around with a loaded gun.

 

Add to this problem many folks live for this stuff and love to catch folks these mistakes and this opens the barn door very wide. So stages written with these things in mind trying to catch folks in the web......kinda' reminds me of people standing around filming cars sliding down an icy street rather than put up a sign and try to prevent an accident. There is no safety issue at hand and really nothing going on. We all know why the rules are written and what they are to prevent......so IMO if you going to "Barney Fife" the hell out of the rules and SDQ a shooter for shifting their feet as they open their stance I think it's a petty way to look at the rules and not in the true spirit of cowboy.

 

I understand some people are shaking their heads and totally disagree with all this and really that's the bigger issue.......if we do it here it will be done on the range as well. So you can lie to yourself if it makes you feel better but the truth is some will get called on this and some won't........and that's why I'll never write anything like this in my stages.

 

So right or wrong agree or disagree IMO if you try hard enough there are plenty of way to make stages fun and different without putting stuff in there that too many people see differently and are heading for almost certain controversy. I don’t think I’ll ever go away from a big match saying wow remember stage X where we started with the shotgun loaded……that was soooo cool and soooo much fun…..I can’t wait to go back and do that again. I would rather put that effort into doing something….well that’s worth the effort and that people will enjoy rather than setting traps that will ruin their shoot for no good reason.

[Captain Bill Burt]

 

so IMO if you going to "barney fife" the hell out of the rules and SDQ a shooter for shifting their feet as the open their stance I think it's a petty way to look at the rules and not in the true spirit of cowboy.

 

I understand some people are shacking their heads and totally disagree with all this and really that's the bigger issue.......if we do it here it will be done on the range as well. So you can lie to yourself if it makes you feel better but the truth is some will get called on this and some won't........and that's why I'll never write anything like this in my stages.

I wouldn't call it 'barney fife' the basketball rule is pretty clear, move two feet, you're out.

 

I do agree that I wouldn't write a stage this way. If I was a posse marshal for a match that had it I would ask at the run through that the TOs be instructed to specifically warn each shooter about the potential for a SDQ, and give them the opportunity to open the action and 'reset' their feet if they felt the need.

[Korupt Karl]

With permission for the TO you load 2 and make ready

 

I assume that phrase is supposed to be, "with permission from the TO."

 

I think that putting a shooter in the position of having to load his weapon off the clock, then disquaifying him for adjusting his stance slightly prior to the beep, really is poor stage writing. I think it's only natural to assume one stance while loading the weapon and then, to adjust the stance slightly to assume a quasi-shooting position (i.e. "make ready"), especially since he'd probably do that anyway after the beep.

 

It also seems to me that aside from hopping into the air so that both feet are in the air at the same time, or executing a few tango dance steps, he met the standard of keeping one foot stationary while moving the other, as he adjusted his stance.

 

Obviously, I wasn't there, so I don't know what really happened, or the call for this. Since it is posted, though I assume some call was made for moving the feet. However, I'd say, "NO CALL."

 

I haven't been writing stages as long as some of you, but it is "Not Poor Stage/Scenario Design". A good TO would tell the shooter to have his feet set prior to loading two. SDQ is the call.

 

If someone writes this scenario and doesn't caution shooters in the scenario "reading"....then shame on them....it is not done in order to trip people up or to call penalties....it is used to give a shooter some variation. Little changes in starting positions make a shoot interesting. If every stage started with hands on hat or on guns with no imagination....it would get old real quick. I think this is another tool for a stage writer to use.

 

Just my too scents.....

 

KK

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

We use this start all the time. Never have problems. Have used it virtually every year that i have written stages for the Michigan State shoot. Foot shuffle is a no call at our match. At a recent state shoot they made you shoot rifle targets through a window and you shot the full width of the berm,requiring lots of body language to negotiate. The berm marshals were very clear that they would be watching feet and calling dq's. My point is don't write a stage like that then threaten to DQ everyone at the drop of a hat. We are not talking about running around the stage with a cocked loaded gun(for those that live in a cave lots of other shooting sports do that safely) let's have a little common sense here boys and girls.

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

Reckon I'm in the wrong camp...

 

Maybe...

 

But ta heck with the posed scenario..

 

How many times does the shooter shuffle both feet when shooting a stage? any stage?

 

Whether it be shotgun, pistol or rifle.. People shuffle their feet...

 

Stage DQ seems harsh.. or to me unacceptable...

 

My gosh we could probably DQ half the shooters.. experienced and inexperienced..

 

Rance

Thinkin' I humbly disagree

and yeah.. I'm probably wrong on this matter..

 

Now all the spotters will be watching feet instead of target hits..

 

Let's see this scenario.. Shooter gets a Stage DQ for shuffling his feet.. Ok.. "I'm gonna watch every shooter now."

 

Ok... I saw a piece of gravel move under his left foot.. Ok.. I saw a piece of gravel move under his right foot...

"Hey! Hey! He moved his feet.. Geesh

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

 

Furthermore, at EOT this year at the "jail" stage they stated that shuffling your feet during the stage in order to adjust your sight angle was not a SDQ. I see this as no different.

 

 

If your local match had made the same "rules override" statement that was made at EOT, then you would have been free to "no call" the feet shuffling in this situation. Otherwise, if you want the shooter to be operating under the standard rule set, you would have called the penalty he earned.

 

Don't think we want to start splitting hairs about just how much the feet can move without penalty and at exactly what points in the shooter's cycle through the firing line that the traveling rule applies. That is how the rule books got to be three large volumes already.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

 

[Captain Bill Burt]

Benefit of WHAT DOUBT??

Shooter violated the "basketball traveling rule" with a cocked/loaded firearm.

 

It seems to me we have a ruling from a member of the RO Committee, yet despite that we have shooters saying they won't abide by that ruling?

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

We use this start all the time. Never have problems. Have used it virtually every year that i have written stages for the Michigan State shoot. Foot shuffle is a no call at our match. At a recent state shoot they made you shoot rifle targets through a window and you shot the full width of the berm,requiring lots of body language to negotiate. The berm marshals were very clear that they would be watching feet and calling dq's. My point is don't write a stage like that then threaten to DQ everyone at the drop of a hat. We are not talking about running around the stage with a cocked loaded gun(for those that live in a cave lots of other shooting sports do that safely) let's have a little common sense here boys and girls.

 

+1

 

The reason I write this starting position into some matches now and again is to get folks used to doing something a little different,so when they go off to a bigger match state shoot or above and they see this or something else they know how to deal with it.In my opinion the starting position was fine(not a trap ) and I think a little foot shuffling should be allowed.

 

 

AO

[Krazy Kajun]

I guess I can see both sides of this and would agree that most everyone shuffles their feet a little before getting started....that's normal. And I can see writing a stage with a little variety in it to keep things interested. I'd like to ask another question.

 

Has anyone written stages that start with the pistol first, out of the leather aimed at the target and the hammer cocked ready to fire? Has anyone here written stages that start with the rifle first.....being aimed at the target and a live round in the chamber and the hammer cocked ready to fire? The shotgun being loaded and action closed is exactly the same thing here and I'm just wondering if stages have been written with the same starting sequence for the rifle and pistol. I'm not saying its bad or good, I'm merely asking the question. If variety is why the stage was written with a loaded and cocked shotgun it would stand to reason that it should be just as safe to start with a loaded and cocked pistol or rifle.

 

Kajun

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Yep, loaded and cocked rifle around here we call the "More Or Less Ready" stance, and laugh.

 

And not all local clubs use such a starting stance.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

A stage writer can add a disclaimer to the stage ALLOWING the feet to be shuffled with NO penalty.....or......the club can make it a standing rule. Just let everyone know it ahead of time.

 

Otherwise.......Rules are Rules.....are they not?

 

 

Stan

 

P.S. I agree with my Pard Deuce......If you know ahead of time that certain stage design could pose a problem resulting in penalizing the shooter maybe you should consider changing the design or allow the shooters some leniency ala EOT and the Jail stage last year that Dan referenced.

[Captain Bill Burt]

A stage writer can add a disclaimer to the stage ALLOWING the feet to be shuffled with NO penalty.....or......the club can make it a standing rule. Just let everyone know it ahead of time.

 

Otherwise.......Rules are Rules.....are they not?

 

 

Stan

 

P.S. I agree with my Pard Deuce......If you know ahead of time that certain stage design could pose a problem resulting in penalizing the shooter maybe you should consider changing the design or allow the shooters some leniency ala EOT and the Jail stage last year that Dan referenced.

+1

[McCandless]

I'm with you on this. Many times I see shooters arrange their feet, not only on the shotgun, but with any gun after cocking. It can be first or last gun, doesn't matter. As an TO I won't allow them to move from one place to the next. But I make no call for the shuffling in one spot. I will usually follow them to the unloading table, particuarly newer shooters. I will remind them what the rules are and suggest that they be sure they are where they want to be before making the gun ready to fire.

 

There is some room for interpretation here... the OP didn't say shotgun shuffle, he said "Shotgun Two-Step"... a shuffle means your feet were always in contact with the ground, yer just "adjusting"...(by the way, you can do all the adjusting you want, before you snap the gun closed)...that's a big difference from two steps. Unless you're like my mama and "shuffle" is your normal means of locomotion, all over the house!

 

So, how far can you shuffle...walk...locomote... adjust...before you call it?

[Anvil Al #59168]

Good lesson for us all.

 

By letter of the law. It's a SDQ. And you get use to doing it at home.

Then go to a big one and get a RO that is going to call it. Then you really

can't say much as you DID do it.

 

Might be a good lesson for us to make sure we got out feet where you want them before you shut that SG.

As some RO's are GOING to call it.

 

Why ruin your match. Just make sure you are where you want to be.

[Happy Jack, SASS #20451]

I agree with Dang it Dan. I realize that by the letter of the law it is a SDQ, but in this case at MY match (I'm the MD) it is a no call. The rule was obviously written to keep shooters from moving location during a COF, NOT before the COF started.

[Fingers McGee]

Sure you can get a safety penalty prior to the beep. Have an AD at the loading table & see what happens.

Or leave the loading table and show up at the starting position with a cocked rifle. Don't ask me how I know.

 

Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee

[Guest Chance Ramsay, SASS#18962]

Well, I have read a all you have said on this regarding 'a little foot shuffle' should be allowed. That brings up the questions, "What's a little, one inch, one foot. I agree with PW and I to have written this into a start position. Don't see a problem with it. Just tell the posse marshal to remind the shooter that once you close the shotgun, DON'T MOVE. And yes I shot EOT, 2012 and that's how our posse marshal, Fredrick Jackson Turner handled it.

Chance

[Captain Bill Burt]

Well, I have read a all you have said on this regarding 'a little foot shuffle' should be allowed. That brings up the questions, "What's a little, one inch, one foot. I agree with PW and I to have written this into a start position. Don't see a problem with it. Just tell the posse marshal to remind the shooter that once you close the shotgun, DON'T MOVE. And yes I shot EOT, 2012 and that's how our posse marshal, Fredrick Jackson Turner handled it.

Chance

Exactly! So, if six inches is OK, and I shuffle 7 inches is that OK? How about a foot? If it's not OK and I'm going to get a SDQ, but the six inch shuffler isn't, what rule will you point to in order to justify the call?

[Anvil Al #59168]

I agree with Dang it Dan. I realize that by the letter of the law it is a SDQ, but in this case at MY match (I'm the MD) it is a no call. The rule was obviously written to keep shooters from moving location during a COF, NOT before the COF started.

 

 

But that RO and MD at that State Match. Or that Regional you traveled so far for. Or WR-EOT may not see it that way.

 

They may go BY RULE.

Best thing we can do is not take a chance. As if you do it. A chance is what you are taking.

We should take this as a good lesson and DON'T MOVE THAT FOOT once we shut that gun.

 

As by rule it is a SDQ. Don't matter what we think of it. It is what it is. And that next RO and MD may not

see it the way we do.

And they got the rule book to point at to back them up.

[Snakebite]

I can't see any benefits to this technique? Maybe somebody can tell me why this is a good idea?

Ringer

 

Ringer... I'm with you. I've seen it done.. in fact, it was done at WR a couple of years back. It caused a HUGH amount of problems, and a number of posses had to reshoot the stage. Every time that I have seen it done, it has caused problems. Yep... I know that some folks say it's just fine, but IMO, it is not a good thing to do. I see nothing to gain by it, and a good deal of potential problems.

 

Snakebite

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

I think the starting postition is very much a regional thing. It's been done thousands of time here in the Midwest with no real issues to speak of. It's all about what you are used too. The problems at WR are probaby a testament to that.

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

What I think is kinda of funny is that this is the way the gun was design to be shot in any other situation,lol,if folks have a issue with it it should be done more often,kinda like training dont practice what your good at,practice what your bad at.

 

One thing I write into stage using this starting postion is a person with a 97 can chamber 1 shell and hold only 1 shell in case they feel like their gun may now work the way its suppost too,many Winchesters & replicas have a issue where it wont pick up from mag tube.Lends the stage towards a sxs a little but I shoot a 97 and dont care.

 

We put around 180 shooters thru Ides Of March last year with not one issue using this start.

 

 

Regards AO

[Doc Shapiro]

The rule needs reworking.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

The rule needs reworking.

 

IMO...what is needed is a return to the allowance to move with a cocked/loaded firearm if specified in the stage instructions (e.g. designated "shooting box"/"firing position" within which such movement is allowed)

That was deleted from the SHB/RO1 when the RO2 course was created (and the "basketball traveling rule" was adopted).

It was temporarily added back in when the Stage Conventions were added to the SHB & RO1 (which can be "overwritten" via stage directions)...until that reference to "movement with a cocked/loaded firearm" was removed from the Conventions as well.

[Blastmaster]

The rule needs reworking.

 

Then get started by going through the proper channels.

 

Not necessarily pointed at you, but all that think this way.

 

Until then, obey the rules!

 

If not, then we have nothing!

 

oh yes, ,,,,, just saying!!

 

Blastmaster

[Blastmaster]

double tap

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

IMO...what is needed is a return to the allowance to move with a cocked/loaded firearm if specified in the stage instructions (e.g. designated "shooting box"/"firing position" within which such movement is allowed)

That was deleted from the SHB/RO1 when the RO2 course was created (and the "basketball traveling rule" was adopted).

It was temporarily added back in when the Stage Conventions were added to the SHB & RO1 (which can be "overwritten" via stage directions)...until that reference to "movement with a cocked/loaded firearm" was removed from the Conventions as well.

 

 

Let there be some foot shuffling going on,like when your shooting thru a window and you need to reposition yourself.

 

 

 

 

AO

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

It seems to me we have a ruling from a member of the RO Committee, yet despite that we have shooters saying they won't abide by that ruling?

Sure won't be the first or last time, will it? There are a couple of SASS rules that get violated at many matches monthly, even some major matches.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Good idea to look at the rule as many have mentioned.

 

Have any of you practice for self defense?

 

One of the first things I was taught by essentially all of my police and defense instructors was that you better be moving and NOT standing flat foot. And in truth, I find I am essentially always following the basket ball rule while doing that.

 

Now I know that we want SASS to be a sport where less experienced can readily get involved and enjoy the sport, and I agree with that. We can keep that but still allow a little more freedom - even without a rule change. But a little tweak would be just fine with me.

 

This discussion points out, many of our shooters are not comfortable with what SASS rules do allow. And what self defense training strongly encourages. I've seen stages designed where you move between tables, etc and you can move and shoot - and follow existing rules. Just design the stage where movement is limited to only a step or two. It is more the illusion of shooting and moving" but sure is fun.

[Cowboy Junky]

I wouldn't call it 'barney fife' the basketball rule is pretty clear, move two feet, you're out.

 

I do agree that I wouldn't write a stage this way. If I was a posse marshal for a match that had it I would ask at the run through that the TOs be instructed to specifically warn each shooter about the potential for a SDQ, and give them the opportunity to open the action and 'reset' their feet if they felt the need.

 

I think the rule was written so you don't move with a loaded gun........like running or walking and yes even one little baby step. But again simply scooting your feet or widening your stance to prepare to shoot STILL seems like a Barney Fife view of life too me. I have also seen RO's in these situations pay more attention to the shooters feet as they anxiously wait for the upcoming SDQ trap to happen and ignore gun handling etc....that could really cause a safety issue.

 

Don’t get me wrong if I shoot at a club that has this type of stage I’ll follow the rules…….but as you can see it won’t be fair across the board because opinions differ and that’s the bigger problem.

 

So to make it fair you have to call a move that isn’t unsafe unsafe to keep everyone happy. So a guy slides both feet 2 inches and you send him away with a SDQ........I still don't like it. Too me that is the same mentality as kicking a 5 year old out of school for bringing a miniature green water pistol to show & tell. And yes.....They do that too…….but I’m not sure I prefer that mentality better than using common sense and applying it to given situation.

 

My point is when I write stages especially for a BIG match I like to rule problems out rather than introduce them in……it just makes for a much better match IMO.