How many rounds to ‘Win’ ??

[Moe T Vator]

Howdy!

 

similar to another thread we have running for new shooters I ask this:

 

1. how many live rounds are you shooting a year to ‘win’ your category at a State or higher match? 

2. how many live rounds are you shooting a year to win overall at a State or higher match? 
 

i am asking to help set expectations for new shooters on how many rounds they need to put down range to take home the buckle. 
 

thanks! 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Practice, practice, practice.  That's how you get on the podium.  And even that doesn't guarantee buckles.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

Well you may be limiting responses to those who are the fast guys.  I managed to win my category at state this year because I only had one competitor who was faster but dropped a gun.  And I don't practice, so however many rounds I shoot every weekend at monthlies plus half dozen annuals a year is all I shoot.  As many know, you don't necessarily have to shoot lotsa ammo, practicing transitions and dry firing will help at least as much. 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

All I do now is about 12-18 monthly stages per month...no dry fire...nothing.

 

When I started I shot about 24 monthly stages per month and about 3000 rounds of practice / month...and dry fire bored the he$$ outta me so I did basically none.

 

And you'll never win without a little luck on your side.

 

Phantom

[Wild Eagle]

I'll let you know if I ever "win".  I'm pretty new and trying to get to where I'm consistently in the top 3 in all of my monthly matches.  I'm shooting about 2,000 rounds of 38 per month and about 15-20 boxes of 12 gage per month.  I'm getting better, but it seems that my competition is also practicing, so.......

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Just now, Wild Eagle said:

I'll let you know if I ever "win".  I'm pretty new and trying to get to where I'm consistently in the top 3 in all of my monthly matches.  I'm shooting about 2,000 rounds of 38 per month and about 15-20 boxes of 12 gage per month.  I'm getting better, but it seems that my competition is also practicing, so.......

If all you do is shoot at THSS, you'll be in for a rude awakening when you go to bigger matches.

 

Cheers!

Phantom

[Wild Eagle]

Well, I shoot at THSS, TRR, Willow Hole, and Plum Creek, but I watch the scores at the state matches and places like Land Run and EOT.  I'm getting close to being fast enough to get into the top 100 at Land Run but that's about it for now.  I'll keep practicing.  If I live long enough maybe, I'll get good enough to make you start practicing again.😀

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

6 minutes ago, Wild Eagle said:

Well, I shoot at THSS, TRR, Willow Hole, and Plum Creek, but I watch the scores at the state matches and places like Land Run and EOT.  I'm getting close to being fast enough to get into the top 100 at Land Run but that's about it for now.  I'll keep practicing.  If I live long enough maybe, I'll get good enough to make you start practicing again.😀

Doubt it...I'm too old.

 

Did you shoot Texas State this year?

 

Phantom

[Wild Eagle]

Didn't shoot the state match.  Not ready for prime time yet, but I'll be there next year ready or not.  I won't really knowwhere I am until I start playing with the big boys.

[watab kid]

OK , ill not saddle a new shooter with this , its perhaps just me but we want everyone to have a good time and keep doing it in the future -if all you care about is winning you missed d the point of all this fun , 

 

i started out starting a new club at a range that was known for three gun and the state trapshoot  , itwas a couple years of fun , then the range got attacked  - by liberals that thought we shouldnt have our fun , it moved but some of the folks that strated it didnt , in talking i got hooked up with a family that shot state shoots in adjacent states , i got invited to join them and ive been doing them every year since , a lot of years - 20+ now at a couple , 

 

its not the rounds shot nor the "wins" we are counting , its the years spent shooting with friends and making new ones , i quit counting either - im just enjoying both , the shooting is great but ll ever win much - and i dont care a rip , im here for the friends and fun , ive been blessed with both so far , qand am headed to wisconsin with that attitude again this year , even if its not the state shoot the friends are thae same the shgot is great and the time spent is the best things in life 

 

i shoot two state matches a year most generaly and i never go to win im just there dor the good time , there is always on winner- but if none but that person showed up it would be a real sad win , the rest of us are having fun , 

Edited July 31 by watab kid

[Assassin]

25k-30k annually, if you really want to compete.

[Warden Callaway]

I could shoot every waking hour every day and still be slow.  I'm not clumsy but I've never been fast or agile.  I sometimes shoot in the 40s and I think 38 was my fastest stage ever. I won my category in a two day match by default being the only contestant. 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

This is just my opinion.

 

I would rank actual 'rounds fired' to get 'good' as a lesser priority than other aspects in our game.

 

I know some champions, and some of them spend more time working on transitions than the amount of

ammo they fire.   Actually, their 1 and or 2 shot drills are included in their transition work.

 

Another key element..... your health and abilities, including eye sight.   You could be the fastest shooter in the game, but

if you can't get from point A to point B real fast, your chances of winning are greatly diminished.

 

And heaven forbid we neglect the MENTAL aspect of our game and reliable EQUIPMENT needed.

 

Shooting is fun, wether it be with our single actions or semi-auto pistols.   But the number of rounds 

sent down range does not necessarily equate to number of belt buckles acquired or wins.

 

Thats just my opinion.

 

..........Widder

 

[Warden Callaway]

We attended the Bianchi Cup several times years ago. Setting on a grassy knoll watching one stage, I heard on wife explaining to another why her husband wasn't doing so well. It was her fault for getting pregnant and having a baby. He generally practiced 5k rounds a week but took too much time off from practice to deal with her pregnancy.  

[Hoss]

1 hour ago, Warden Callaway said:

We attended the Bianchi Cup several times years ago. Setting on a grassy knoll watching one stage, I heard on wife explaining to another why her husband wasn't doing so well. It was her fault for getting pregnant and having a baby. He generally practiced 5k rounds a week but took too much time off from practice to deal with her pregnancy.  

There has to be a joke in there about shooting blanks 

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

Read and reread what Widder said.. or wrote 

That’s a lot of good advice right there..

Just sayin 

Edited July 31 by Rance - SASS # 54090

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

PLUS ONE for the Phantom.  Way back inna Wabac (Sherman & Perfesser) when I was chasing the Brass Ring, I shot at least 4 local matches a month and about 4000 rounds a month in "practice."  And that didn necessarily equate to "Buckles."  It is however a start, if you're young enough, healthy enough, dedicated enough and lucky enough.  This game is Uber FUN.  Shooting that much "practice" becomes "WORK" and work ain't necessarily fun.  Now, I too are some too old to worry about speed or buckles.

 

Hey WIDDER!!  Never fergit MENTAL.  I been described as "MENTAL" a whole bunch!!

 

That works out to about 48,000 rounds a year.  When not shooting, or at work, I was on the reloading press.  Don't know how I had time to actually work. 

Edited July 31 by Colorado Coffinmaker
Add some numbers

[Hoss]

I’ll few years ago I really wanted to win my category at Texas State (Cody Dixon) I shot 3+ matches per month, practiced most weeks. Shot a lot! I found practice wise the 1 shot drills helped the most. Plus getting better at loading shotgun, and really studying the stage to minimize movement as I ain’t the fastest kid on the block. I was pretty excited to win my category against some good competition. Since then, I’ve injured my knee and it greatly diminished my already slow movement position to position. Now I go more to see my friends, still try my best, but don’t worry about winning as much. 
 

[Marauder SASS #13056]

11 hours ago, Wild Eagle said:

Didn't shoot the state match.  Not ready for prime time yet, but I'll be there next year ready or not.  I won't really knowwhere I am until I start playing with the big boys.

Never let that stop you.  The first year I shot SASS, I was also sorta intimidated so I missed a wonderful time at Round-Up.

Remember it is abut fun and friendships as well competition.  As you shoot more you will generally improve.  Your primary competition is not so much other shooters as it is yourself - getting smoother and maintaining accuracy.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

9 hours ago, watab kid said:

OK , ill not saddle a new shooter with this , its perhaps just me but we want everyone to have a good time and keep doing it in the future -if all you care about is winning you missed d the point of all this fun , 

 

i started out starting a new club at a range that was known for three gun and the state trapshoot  , itwas a couple years of fun , then the range got attacked  - by liberals that thought we shouldnt have our fun , it moved but some of the folks that strated it didnt , in talking i got hooked up with a family that shot state shoots in adjacent states , i got invited to join them and ive been doing them every year since , a lot of years - 20+ now at a couple , 

 

its not the rounds shot nor the "wins" we are counting , its the years spent shooting with friends and making new ones , i quit counting either - im just enjoying both , the shooting is great but ll ever win much - and i dont care a rip , im here for the friends and fun , ive been blessed with both so far , qand am headed to wisconsin with that attitude again this year , even if its not the state shoot the friends are thae same the shgot is great and the time spent is the best things in life 

 

i shoot two state matches a year most generaly and i never go to win im just there dor the good time , there is always on winner- but if none but that person showed up it would be a real sad win , the rest of us are having fun , 

Sorry, but this kind of response does nothing but add to a "Division" within SASS.

 

No one...I mean NO ONE, said anything about "only caring about winning". The question centered around winning but never suggested that it was the be-all end-all.

 

Why continue with this US vs THEM stuff...???

 

Phantom

PS: As my friend BLB said "If I can't compete, I won't have fun. And if I don't have fun, I won't compete".

[Wild Eagle]

1 hour ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

Never let that stop you.  The first year I shot SASS, I was also sorta intimidated so I missed a wonderful time at Round-Up.

Remember it is abut fun and friendships as well competition.  As you shoot more you will generally improve.  Your primary competition is not so much other shooters as it is yourself - getting smoother and maintaining accuracy.

Yes sir.  My only focus at this time is to get better than I was last month.  But, I enjoy shooting with the fastest guys at the monthly matches because I get to see how they are beating me by six seconds per stage.  I'm impressed that they still shoot that fast when they could usually just "phone it in" and win.  I guess they are still just trying to beat themselves.  I'm hoping that one day I'll be fast enough to press them a little.  I don't really worry about it though.  This is how I enjoy spending my time and I do enjoy the people.  

[Long Hunter SASS #20389L]

The fun factor is different for every individual. For some, completing at the top is their fun while others it may be meeting up with friends or spending time with the family. I believe everyone cares a little bit how well they do. For some, it may be nudging out their buddy, spouse or someone at the club on their level. For others, it's winning the matches and they enjoy putting the time in to practice so they have a chance to accomplish it. Whatever your fun level is, own it and don't push it on anyone else. 

 

To answer the OP's question, back in the day when I was completing to win at the very top, I shot about 60,000 rounds a year. Practicing one shot drills and transitions were probably the most critical. The mental aspect of the game is often overlooked and probably the most important aspect of the game after you have the skills to win. Widder is spot on in my opinion.  

 

L.H.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

“How many rounds to ‘Win’ ??”

 

If properly placed, one.

[Texas Maverick]

Don't forget that statement about choosing your category wisely. I compete against one person at every match and that is me no matter what category I shoot in, can't seem to get away from him. I have improved over the 6 years from averaging in the 60 second per stage to now shooting around 25 second per stage. I have improved my skills and transitions and am happy with that. Yeah, winning a buckle is great but I am competing against some of the best and unless they have a terrible hiccup during the match know I am not in their same class of shooter and that is ok. I am having fun and look forward to the next match. I like competing against the next guy but as Clint Eastwood said " A man has to know his limitations" and I do. Have fun and try to always improve your skills. Remember, we aren't shooting for money so we have to enjoy it or why are we doing it. If I was to quit having fun doing this I wouldn't be spending all my money doing it.

 

I remember a few years back I entered the HOW match in Cheyenne, WY. RV campground was paid for and the match was paid for and all arrangements had been made. A few days before leaving for WY I couldn't hardly get myself out of bed. After going to the doctor and getting an MRI it was determined I had 5 bulging discs, 1 perforated disc and a cyst between L4 and L5 vertebrae. I was a mess to say the least. My wife and I talked it over and I said I was ready to gut it out and still go. We did go and I did shoot the match. Boy was I in for a major surprise. This match was the olympics of having to move a bunch during each stage. They have a large facility and said they liked to be able to use it all. We needed tennis shoes on to do this match. I was kidded a lot during this match because I actually had two great gun bearers during the match, Panhandle Cowgirl and Bessie James took care of retrieving my long guns after I shot each stage and would take them to the unloading table for me. I can never thank them enough for their assistance during this match. I will say, yes, I was in a lot of pain but I still had a ton of fun shooting that match. I couldn't even tell you where I came in for my category or overall but I did shoot a clean match which was a task into itself. I would shoot it again one of these days but will definitely need to get into better shape to compete in it.

 

Since I turn 75 in Feb and will be able to shoot Cattle Baron at EOT next year I was hoping for little easier category but after looking at last years scores I think it is going to be just as hard. I still plan on having fun at my first match at Ben Avery. I shot EOT the last year it was in NM and have shot Land Run for the past 4 years. I am usually just above the middle of the pack which is where I usually sit. I still have fun and will continue shooting as long as I can do so safely.

 

Have fun and see ya down the trail.

 

TM

Edited July 31 by Texas Maverick

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

Longhunter mentioned shooting 60,000 rounds per year. I've seen many other shooters who shot 30,000 to 60,000 per year when they were in serious pursuit to become the best. Down the road the number of rounds they shot lessened to a number sufficient to maintain their skills.

 

As time goes on in SASS, USPSA,  IDPA,  3 Gun, all the action shooting sports the amount of dry fire shooters do to become the best has increased vs live fire. Transitions between firearms is drastically more important in SASS vs the other games including 3 Gun.

 

With the price of ammo and components  increasing more shooters are learning they can accomplish a lot with dry fire. 

Many of us mostly shoot matches, do a little practice. But there are those who seriously prioritize getting as good as they can be.

[Yusta B.]

Read Study Doc Shapiro's book.

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

Doc Shapiro is one of those I was referencing in talking about the number of rounds shooting.  Also when questioned about what it takes to try to become the best he often stressed it was about what each person prioritizes. 

[Blackwater 53393]

 

This is liable to be a bit long winded, but bear with me!  
 

When I started in this game, (21 years ago this weekend) I did it for a release!!  I was in a high pressure job, I was fronting a fairly successful Rock and Blues band, I was still working with a drag racing team, and my son was playing high school football and baseball!

 

I figured one weekend a month spent entirely on myself was a good way to blow off steam!  I had the guns, although some of them were far from the most competitive.  I had seen some articles about CAS and had visited with a couple of local shooters and found a nearby club.  I found a good vendor for some better than average gun leather and I already had minimum clothing requirements covered.

 

I sent in my membership application and fee along with three choices of alias, went to my first match before I even received my bonafides, and commenced to learning the ropes and making friends!

 

The whole thing was one huge mistake!!  
 

The club owner immediately took me under his wing and hooked me up with a great shooter who wanted to coach me. He also insisted on taking me to every big match within a long day’s driving distance!

 

I repeatedly reminded them that I was doing this for fun and they kept telling me that if I’d get serious about it, I’d be pretty good!

 

I replaced some of my guns with better ones and/or ones that fit me better.  I switched, eventually, to cap ‘n’ ball guns and learned the Frontiersman category.  
 

While all of this was going on, I went through a very serious back surgery, the kid graduated and went to work, and I parted company with the outfit that was responsible for the bulk of my stress!  I also began to spend a lot more time on the podium! I was going through over 6000 rounds a year and around 800 rounds of shotgun.

 

I was now shooting thirty or more matches a year and decided that since I was no longer chained to a job, I’d start vending and shoot even more!!  Some of the other vendors that I spent time with told me that getting on stage at the big match awards ceremonies was good for business, so I shot more, I worked on improving my skills, and I had my guns and equipment worked on to make them more competitive too!

 

Business was good and I picked up buckles, plaques, and awards with some regularity!  But it all began to feel like work!!  I was on the road a lot and while I was paying my bills and seeing the country, I was also spending a lot more time “in the tent” and less time at the parties and ducking out of banquets and events to get product ready for customers!  I could shoot the match, but then I had to run back to the vending table and wasn’t spending much time with my fellow shooters. By now I was going through 10,000 round balls a year and about the same number of cartridges, not to mention shotgun shells!  I was bartering for cartridges and buying shotgun shells because I didn’t have time to reload!

 

Beside all of that, I was having issues with scheduling the band.  I DID pick up a few really fun gigs at some big matches, but a lot of our money was made on weekends at college campuses and with corporate events.  I found myself shooting the first half of a match, driving several hours to make a gig, and then driving back to the second day of the match to finish, take care of my customers, and then pack up and head to the next match or home if I happened to get a weekend off! I “shot through” on a lot of matches, completing the whole match in one day or shooting the stages one right after another in order to be at my vending table when the rest of the crowd finished for the day!

 

It all hit the fan at a great match that I really liked!  I had an absolutely miserable shoot!  If I didn’t have a “P” I had an ammo malfunction!  If it wasn’t an ammo malfunction, it was a gun malfunction!  If everything else worked well, I missed the closest possible target!

 

I DID have a pretty good vending weekend and I got loaded and on the road with little trouble, but I spent the first half of the trip home berating myself for having let the match get away from me!!

 

I pulled into a drive through restaurant to grab a bite and something to drink and it hit me like a slap on the head!! “You idiot!” I told myself. “You started this game for a way to blow off steam!  You promised yourself and everyone else that you wouldn’t let this get like the job or the racing!”

 

By the time I got home, I was smiling and had made up my mind that shooting was going to be fun and to hell with making it like work!!

 

I’ve won a few plaques and buckles since then, but I have had a lot more fun doing it! I sold out the vending operation and turned in my business license and tax stuff.
 

Now!! If I can just get back on my feet, (literally) and get healthy, I’ll maybe have another twenty-one years of fun!!

 

 

[Assassin]

Shooting many rounds does help, one will have more light strikes, hiccups, kicked out rounds, etc. And, that'll help one deal with the stoooopid little glitches that happen. Learning fundamentals is crucial. 

There are different types of shooting too, stand and deliver gives no margin for error. Here at the home of Hell On Wheels and plenty of movement, we can take advantage of the movement and pull that sticky shell or get the pistol holstered on the move.  Some ranges set up all the targets at the same height, or shoot all shotgun from one position. Others set up split shotgun targets and have varying target heights. Many things to learn and process. Learning to find the free time on a stage is paramount, good stage writers will put it out there, the good shooters will take advantage of it. One and two shot drills and transitions as stated by Widder. Mental game is more important than speed, adrenalin will kick your ass if you allow it. Just because someone wins a speed sidematch doesn't mean they can put it all together for an overall win. 

 

Scarlett  says it takes about 200,000 rounds annually to get fast!

[watab kid]

13 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Sorry, but this kind of response does nothing but add to a "Division" within SASS.

 

No one...I mean NO ONE, said anything about "only caring about winning". The question centered around winning but never suggested that it was the be-all end-all.

 

Why continue with this US vs THEM stuff...???

 

Phantom

PS: As my friend BLB said "If I can't compete, I won't have fun. And if I don't have fun, I won't compete".

ok , by your logic , i should quit , 

 

im noit going to and based on your posts over the time ive been here ill refrain from any more responses to this thread , sorry of i offended anyone in any way never my intent , if on the other hand its only you that took offense i guess thats about what i would have expected - ive avoided confrontation here as much as possible but it seems i found it this time , i do speak my mind as you do - good we dont all agree , but i fail to see where my reply would create division , i simply expressed an opinion of what im here for - i did not mean to imply that anyone only had interest in winning in spite of having observed it , i really dont care one way or the other , im here to enjoy and when i cease to enjoy ill not be here 

[Johnny Buck]

5,000 rounds a week before a big match.

 

For me, back in the day, it was about beating Long Hunter in the shoot offs!  That never happened, but I had a lot of fun and made a good friend 

 

JB

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Before you can attempt to answer the question - you would first need to define "Win".

 

A local category win?

A monthly overall?

Annual category win?

Annual overall?

State, Regional, National, World category win?

State, Regional, National, World overall?

 

Each of the above include the word "Win" - and each of the above have incredibly different admission prices.

 

And when attempting to correlate number of rounds fired to performance - there are three very important points to consider.

1. Quantity of practice.

2 Quality of practice.

3. Quantity of quality practice.

 

The quantity of practice (rounds fired) is meaningless (or even detrimental) IF the quality of practice is poor.

Now there are some that will tell you ANY trigger time is beneficial and "practice makes perfect" - these people don't know what they are talking about.

 

Practice makes PERMANENT.

Only PERFECT practice makes perfect.

 

Your practice MUST be geared toward doing things correctly - and a competitor MUST be willing to continually assess where they are lacking or exhibiting a limiting factor and address those points.  EVEN when addressing a fault may require them to take a step backward to correct something that could/ will limit their growth in the future.

This is QUALITY practice.

 

THEN and only then does the quantity of quality practice come into play.

The best shooters can tell you how many hours of dry fire and how many rounds they spent (of quality practice) preparing for major matches to win their championships (at whatever level).

 

The shooter not utilizing quality of practice but only quantity (simply burning a "number of rounds" or wasting time) may shoot 1000's upon 1000's of rounds and NEVER see the podium - because if they are doing something incorrectly; doing it wrong 5000 more times won't make it better.

 

And sadly; this is reality.

Even if you know how to do it; how to prepare for it and how to practice for it.

Even if you can do it EVERYTHING right.

No matter how much you want it to happen.

That doesn't guarantee you anything.

 

The folks that win almost always have additional intangibles that cannot always be quantified on a spreadsheet labeled "How rounds needed to win".

 

Winners have the drive to put in the time, the intelligence or mentorship to recognize paths to improvement, the finances to ensure quality of equipment (and quantity of rounds) and discipline to maintain their physical and mental focus.

 

Some of these shooters may have physically superiority with better eyesight, fast twitch muscle fibers or faster reaction times. 

 

If it were as simple as X number of rounds downrange makes you win - a lot more of us would have World Championship buckles.

Edited August 2 by Creeker, SASS #43022

[Dusty Devil Dale]

When I began cowboy shooting, a close friend (named Snakebite) told me that before long I would need to decide if I wanted to be a CAS "Competitor", or be a "Participant".  He explained the difference, including the cost and commitment, but I think it all went on through my brain without sticking.

 

Both my wife and I went through some stages in making (or evolving) that decision. 

First, We found ourselves in the living room almost every night, decked out in leather, guns loaded up with snap caps and sticky note targets hanging from the mantle and walls. 

Then, every chance we had, (dozens of days) we were at the range wearing ear protection, timing and videoing each other in live fire transition drills, then analyzing the results and working on stick points. 

 

In between those sessions, I spent countless hours and dollars sitting, pulling the handle on a 650XL, until I literally developed shoulder tendinitis.   As the component costs escalated, the hours at the loader became VERY expensive, but still we practiced every chance we could find, either at the Club range or up at our ranch.  That went on for years!  Although Snakebite's words remained in my memory, the game was gradually revealing to me that I do not have the speed and dexderity to progress very far beyond a mediocre "Competitor".  (But both of us are fine "Participants"!)

My stage times on difficult stages remained between 20 and 30 sec, which is simply not fast enough to win  buckles and accolades at big matches. 

 

As my age has stretched out to 75, it has become evident that I am slowing down, rather than speeding up.  But I really think that is OK. 

 

Would I like to have spent less time practicing, case cleaning, reloading and working at our club range?  Possibly --I dont really know.  I have enjoyed all of that a great deal, but I do get a lump in my throat looking at my backpack, or pulling out my big tuna reels and realizing I may never have a chance to feel them in action again.  For a decade, I have done little else besides cowboy shooting, drifting away from other shooting sports,  fishing, and a host of hobbies.

 

Now time is passing faster.  Weeks seem to go by in hours. 

Both of us still shoot, but we've laid off of 90% of the practice, realizing it was a huge time investment that was not producing fruit.  

 

We've gotten back into backpacking, road trips, fishing, and a wider range of activities.   We both still love our club events, comeraderie,  and the competition, but we just want more breadth from the time we have left together. 

So if you seek to be a top "Competitor", then realize it won't come free or easy.  Make sure it is what you really want.  Our lives have a lot to offer.   Just some food for thought.

I didn't catch this big girl, but I had a lot of fun trying (and posing beside it. )

Again--- life has a lot to offer. 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 2 by Dusty Devil Dale

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Dang DDD,  that is a pretty good size crappie.   I didn't know you lived in E.Tennessee..... 😀

 

..........Widder

 

[Yusta B.]

3 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Dang DDD,  that is a pretty good size crappie.   I didn't know you lived in E.Tennessee..... 😀

 

..........Widder

 

Widder - I think that there is actually a White-eared Bluegill. I saw one in a crick over by Tullahoma once.  😀