Stage problem?

[Mustang Gregg]

I got a couple of comments last month when I read off a stage scenario that said to engage  targets  in two straight sweeps of 1-2-3-4-5.

I heard remarks that it is a disadvantage for the lefties.

What say you?

 

[Flying W Ramrod]

Bull is what I think.

Everyone should learn to shoot 1-2-3-4-5 and 5-4-3-2-1. It's the only way to get better and shoot the best way possible for each stage.

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

Just add "From either end"
Black Powder shooters and Lefties appreciate the option of going right-to-left or left-to-right.
It makes no real difference to right-handed smokeless shooters, but it might make a huge difference to BP guys and Lefties.

--Dawg

Edited May 5 by Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

2 minutes ago, Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 said:

it might make a huge difference to BP guys

Depends on the wind!

[Lead Monger]

30 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Depends on the wind!

If the match is comprised of an equal number of left flowing stages and right flowing stages then it all works out in the end. Nobody is at a disadvantage based on stage flow. Mix it up.

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

Always allow sweeps to start from either end so target 1 can be on the right or the left.

[Griff]

2 hours ago, Mustang Gregg said:

I got a couple of comments last month when I read off a stage scenario that said to engage  targets  in two straight sweeps of 1-2-3-4-5.

I heard remarks that it is a disadvantage for the lefties.

What say you?

Just as a "righty" has to reposition themselves to effectively deal with a sweep from the right so that the torso "unwinds" as they shoot from right to left, so too can the "lefty" reposition their feet so they're unwinding as they move from left to right.  But, in deference to either party, allowing sweeps or firearm order in either direction accommodates everyone, and disadvantages no one.  

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

But, in deference to either party, allowing sweeps or firearm order in either direction accommodates everyone, and disadvantages no one. 

This!
Griff gets it!

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

This is a stage problem.  Everything else is just whining.

 

[Matthew Duncan]

I’ve been a lefty my entire life and thereby have adapted to a large degree to the right handers way of doing things backwards.

 

I can shoot left to right or right to left equally as bad.

[Matthew Duncan]

1 hour ago, Griff said:

… allowing sweeps or firearm order in either direction accommodates everyone, and disadvantages no one.  

Except for the Spotters.

[Major BS Walker Regulator]

1 hour ago, Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 said:

But, in deference to either party, allowing sweeps or firearm order in either direction accommodates everyone, and disadvantages no one. 

This!
Griff gets it!

 

7 minutes ago, Matthew Duncan said:

Except for the Spotters.

And one less chance of a P

[Idaho Gunslinger]

Next time do 2 stages in the same bay with the same targets and same pattern but sweep from the left on one and from the right on the other. Then compare the times. Just doing that one time won't be a large fata set but if you have enough shooters at the match you may find a good average to whether it really matters or not.

 

As @Creeker, SASS #43022 always says Match Directors are in the entertainment business so it may be a best business practice to just give everyone the option of direction so everyone is happy. 

[I. M. Crossdraw, SASS# 8321]

5 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Depends on the wind!

This and don't chase the smoke.

[Blackwater 53393]

I’m totally left handed! I don’t mind shooting some stages that are advantageous to the right handed shooter, so long as a fair amount of stages are southpaw friendly.  Stages that are neutral are always good.

 

I shot a State Championship Match a few years ago that was entirely written for right handed shooters. There were absolutely NO scenarios that lent themselves to a person shooting left handed. All movement was right to left and on several stages I literally had to walk backward in order to shoot the required sequences!!!

 

The props and stage construction would have allowed me to move in a normal manner if the shooting sequences and stage instructions had allowed it, but such was not the case!

 

After the match, I asked the match director and the stage writer to take a walk through a number of the stages and I demonstrated how, in some cases, it was actually borderline dangerous to not allow some variation in movement and gun order.  When I asked them if they thought that this was fair, they looked at me like I had two heads and horns!!

 

I then asked if they had any left handed members in the host club. They replied that there was one elderly gentleman in the club that shot left handed, “but nobody ever complained about it before…”. 
 

As it happens, I traveled with a couple of other left handed shooters for several years and we shot major matches in several states throughout the area east of the Mississippi and occasionally ventured into other parts of the country.  We often found that we were shooting from a distinct disadvantage in some places and we weren’t bashful about pointing it out to MDs and host club officials whenever it happened.  Most of them were more than happy to make reasonable changes in match setup and shooting instructions when we returned to shoot with them again the next time. 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

@Idaho Gunslinger

Thank you - wasn't sure anyone actually reads all the stupidity I post.  

 

I do believe we are in the entertainment business - but I don't "necessarily" believe we are in the Buffet business.

 

What do I mean?

If you round up the family and truck them over to the local casino buffet, Golden Corral or Old Country buffets - it is on the premise that everybody gets what they want.

But let's face it - Buffets are compromises and NEVER anyones FIRST choice.

 

To "allow" every shooter to begin every stage in position of choice, with gun of choice, engage from either end on every target array - "to me" is a Buffet shoot; an inoffensive compromise that serves everyone but pleases few.

 

So to avoid the Buffet match - I made a conscious decision to look at EVERY stage, EVERY match from the viewpoint of a lefty, of a righty, of a SxS shooter, of a 97 shooter - from the perspective of a black powder shooter, a tall person and a short person - from a gunfighters ideal, from a supported or duelist.

 

And then I had to decide - can I do this action, this movement, this sequence equitably between all the different equipment, styles, propellants, ages, body types here?

Can I do it safely and will it be fun?

 

Notice I say equitably - I hate the word "fair" because the world is inherently unfair.

Some are blessed with longer legs - some with better reflexes and some with better cognitive recall.

The only "fair" stage would one with no movement between positions to eliminate the advantage of faster runners.

The only "fair" stage would start your time upon the first shot fired to eliminate those able to better react to the beep.

The only "fair" stage would be one with 10 round dumps to eliminate need for recall and memory.

But we would tire of this quickly.

 

So on some stages - there were always decisions made that might compromise a certain shooting style choice, equipment choice or hand dominance - but I did so because I felt the stage was more "entertaining" with certain conditions placed upon it.

But if I compromised one way on a given stage - I would attempt a suitable recompense on another.

 

Admittedly I wrote SOME "Buffet" stages - but mostly I attempted to write interesting, entertaining stages that sometimes moved shooters left to right and sometimes right to left - I placed more value in equitable stages within the whole of the match than making every stage equitable within itself. 

 

My preferred stages often involved "zig zag" movements that combined left to right with right to left and/ or included downrange movements.

 

Or shotgun intensive hallway stages that required firing from windows/ doorways on both sides - alternatingly advantaging and disadvantaging the shooter depending upon which shoulder you fire from.

 

But a steady state of three lateral position stages with pistol, rifle, shotgun - begin with sg or pistol - engage targets from either direction...

 

It may be somewhat "fair" but if I am forced to choose between fair and entertaining?

 

I believe the word Match Director means I was entrusted to direct my shooters actions; guide their match in a given way that provides for a cohesive match.

More of a fine dining experience where you experience a meal by courses served than a free for all buffet where you serve yourself.

They will both feed you - but they are not the same.

 

I had only three tenets as a Match Director.

It has to be safe.

It has to be entertaining/ fun.

If it's not safe or fun - FIX IT.

 

 

 

@Blackwater 53393

I too am a lefty and have had your same conversations with many a match director.

But as only approx. 10% of the population is left handed - I don't expect equal accomodation.

(and since us leftys grew up in a right handed world - a number of us are going to be better versed in the rightys world than they in ours).

 

[Idaho Gunslinger]

6 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

@Idaho Gunslinger

Thank you - wasn't sure anyone actually reads all the stupidity I post.  

 

I too am a lefty and have had your same conversations with many a match director.

But as only approx. 10% of the population is left handed - I don't expect equal accomodation.

(and since us leftys grew up in a right handed world - a number of us are going to be better versed in the rightys world than they in ours).

 

I probably should have specified that on a stage this simple, that giving the option of direction is an easy fix, but I liked the extra explanation and I agree with it. 

 

As for being lefty that is one of the things that make them so creative is having to learn how to adjust to a righty world. (I'm a righty.)

[Griff]

15 hours ago, Matthew Duncan said:

Except for the Spotters.

However, when I see a lefty come up to the line on a stage with the option for either direction, I expect them to start at the right and move left... & am seldom caught off guard.  Same as the few occasions I get to TO.  

 

16 hours ago, Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 said:

But, in deference to either party, allowing sweeps or firearm order in either direction accommodates everyone, and disadvantages no one. 

This!
Griff gets it!

Aye, as except shooting (right eye dominant) and writing, (obstinate 1st grade teacher), I do everything else left handed... (although I can, and have, batted left or right, I canna hit a golf ball right handed).  And, it is nearly physically impossible for me to make an overhand throw with my right hand.   Ergo, I can't consider myself ambidextrous, but readily understand both sides. 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

I am right handed and will be happy if every stage goes like this:

Start with shotgun on the left side, so I can restart if I fumble shells.  Then rifle in the middle, then pistols on the right so I can pull the crossdraw on the way, and then set the first gun on the prop after shooting it.  What's so hard about that? 

[Griff]

34 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

I am right handed and will be happy if every stage goes like this:

Start with shotgun on the left side, so I can restart if I fumble shells.  Then rifle in the middle, then pistols on the right so I can pull the crossdraw on the way, and then set the first gun on the prop after shooting it.  What's so hard about that? 

IMO, that's a right handed preferential stage setup.  For a lefty using a crossdraw, they would have to move backwards to be able to draw a crossdraw pistol as they moved to that position, whereas, if you let them start on the pistols they're facing forward for the entire stage, just as you are, starting on the left.  But, note, either direction is problematic for the shooter that only shoots from an isosceles stance (both feet equidistant from the firing line).

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

I don’t think it is a big issue, but I do think it’s a minor one easily fixed by allowing starting on either side, or sweep one way, then the other.

[Too Tall Bob]

This is such a non issue and easily cured by allowing starting on either side or sweep targets from either end. 
I am a lefty and I think you might be surprised to find most lefty shooters adapt quite easily to a right handed situation. I don’t understand why a lefty person using a cross draw would have to back across a “right hand oriented” stage. Address the stage straight on for movement and Face down range and turn your torso so as to not break the 170 when you draw. If that is too much to figure out then perhaps you might try double duelist and eliminate the concern all together. 
 

Good luck and try new things - 

TTB

[Yul Lose]

Back when I first started CAS in late 2006 every stage at all of the 5 clubs I shot at started on the left and ended on the right. There was little choice of what gun you start with and rifle was never last. Over the years they've all changed to start on either side and choice of which guns to start with except for one club and it’s not around anymore. As a gunfighter I choose to shoot pistols last for some reason, I just like it better. When I shot 2 handed I didn’t care if pistols were last. Our game has evolved since I started and it will continue to evolve or decay, however you look at it. Most left handed shooters that I’ve talked with about which side to start on say that  it doesn’t make much difference to them because they’ve learned to live in a right handed world.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

1 hour ago, Yul Lose said:

Most left handed shooters that I’ve talked with about which side to start on say that  it doesn’t make much difference to them because they’ve learned to live in a right handed world.

 

This is exactly what I was referencing when I mentioned equitable stage writing.

I would not write a 12 stage match with "equal" number of left to right and right to left - as the right to left movement is MEASURABLY slower for most right handers compared to a left to right move for most leftys.

 

Understanding there are degrees of difficulty to every task and how those differing degrees affect different shooting styles, equipment, propellants and hand dominance is advanced stage writing.

 

Sadly most stage writers or match directors never put in the time and study to understand the nuance of advanced stage writing.

 

So some write stages without even considering the variations between shooters and how the movement, sequence or staging may affect them.

 

Some write "Buffet" stages to accomodate everyone; but these stages by their very nature make telling a cohesive story within the stage or match very challenging.

 

And then there are some who pore over their stages; considering the impact and suitability of every move, sequence, prop manipulation upon every shooter - the writers who agonize over the inclusion or exclusion of a word and consider every implication of possibilities between the difference.

 

The stage writer who feels the entertainment of their shooters is secondary only to their safety and will make their decisions based on providing the absolute best shoot possible.

 

Maybe I over think the topic (ok, no doubt I overthink it) - but I believe my job as a match director is not to simply provide some steel and some tables for staging.

 

Not to set up 6 or 12 disparate stages and set the shooters loose.

 

My job is to create stages that interact and complement each other - that tell a story and take you on a journey.

Unlike a book - the Story cannot be told in order; because each posse starts on a different "chapter" - but themes and feel can work chapter to chapter or stage to stage.

I cannot provide that feel, that theme, that building of one chapter to the next if my shooters don't have like experiences stage to stage.

And while CAS is an individual sport - it is a group experience; Buffet stages don't (in my opinion) provide for the experience of a posse all feeling the same accomplishment or utilizing the same matrix of measurement.

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

The OP stage instructions never said what was 1 and what was 5; lefty just start on the right and do two right to left sweeps... easy.

[Griff]

5 hours ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

The OP stage instructions never said what was 1 and what was 5; lefty just start on the right and do two right to left sweeps... easy.

Since English is read left to right, even a lefty would conclude that target one was the left-most target.  Being one of those which believe, "...if not expressly prohibited, I can..."  I might be the reason SASS has stage conventions.

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

So there is a SASS convention that says targets always run left to right??

[Captain Bill Burt]

As other's have said, add language stating that the sweep can be started on either end AND language that says with pistols repeat rifle 'instructions' and vice versa.

I prefer to sweep left to right with my rifle, as most right handed shooters do and I since I draw my right pistol first (almost always) I prefer to run my pistol sweeps right to left.

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

I agree and you've seen, I usually make a point of saying "from either direction" for my sweeps, but the OP did not stipulate, so I don't think it matters as long as the shooter is consistent.

[Griff]

1 hour ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

I agree and you've seen, I usually make a point of saying "from either direction" for my sweeps, but the OP did not stipulate, so I don't think it matters as long as the shooter is consistent.

And, if the Stage instructions were to read sweep the targets in a 3,2,4,1,5 sweep, would your erstwhile shooter, making the determination that target 3 was the 1st target on the left, with 2 the next target to the right, followed by 4, 1 & 5, as long as he was consistent, be following the stage instructions?  To me, that seems like anarchy.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

3 hours ago, Griff said:

To me, that seems like anarchy.

And it would be.

 

These problems have been created by the contingent of stage writers that somehow consider it a source of pride to use the bare minimum of words to write a stage.

 

Instead of providing thorough explanation - they use what they deem as "enough".

This shortage of words, punctuation and stage framework do not speed the stage - but lead to unclear instructions, inconsistent engagement and non comparable scoring.

 

Label your targets.

Use modifiers and steps to completion instructions.

Learn the importance of "And" "Then" "Or"

 

Ink is plentiful and cheap - IF there is an action, order of engagement, sequence or movement that you want your shooters to complete - it HAS to be included.

 

If you do not...

If there is vagueness in your writing...

If you omit target numbering, position markers or sequence explanation...

 

When the shooter goes off script - fails to do what you believe "they should already know" or "it's just understood - common sense"; that failure is upon you as YOU failed to provide complete instruction.

Edited May 7 by Creeker, SASS #43022

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

English language - we read Left to Right - Top to Bottom.

So lets look at 5 target arrays

 

.......X.......X.......X.......X.......X

......T1.....T2.....T3.....T4.....T5  

 

This would be "Generally" agreed upon target order.

 

What about differing height targets?

 

....X.................X.................X

..............X..................X

...T1......T2.....T3......T4.....T5

or is it?

...T1................T2...............T3

.............T4................T5

 

Another

......................X

...........X...................X

X..........................................X

T1......T2......T3......T4.......T5

or is it?

.....................T1

..........T2..................T3

T4......................................T5

 

I guarantee there are some on either side - if the STAGE WRITER fails to provide a road map; don't be surprised when your shooters get off course.

 

 

[Burn Through]

I like it when it says starting on either end , I think that is fair to all 

[Captain Bill Burt]

16 hours ago, Griff said:

And, if the Stage instructions were to read sweep the targets in a 3,2,4,1,5 sweep, would your erstwhile shooter, making the determination that target 3 was the 1st target on the left, with 2 the next target to the right, followed by 4, 1 & 5, as long as he was consistent, be following the stage instructions?  To me, that seems like anarchy.

I would find that interpretation perfectly acceptable…so long as the shooter was good with me awarding him a 10 second ‘bonus’ added to his time!

[Black Hills Barb]

I have never heard a complaint like that, but I suppose it could run through minds. Just to make up for it do 2 straight 5-4-3-2-1 sweeps next time. 
I hear "from either end" used all the time now.  I don't feel that it was not always that way.  I do know that many shooters have a preference of the direction they move in, especially if they are carrying a gun.  For safety reason, a choice of direction and which gun to start with is a good idea.