What's the call?

[Chief Rick]

2 Pistols - 5 rounds each, holstered
ATB
With pistols, starting and ending on P3, engage the five pistol targets with at least one round each.
 

For the above pistol string, a several shooters engaged as follows: P3, P2, P1, P5, P4 - P3, P3, P3, P3, P3.

 

If a shooter misses either P1, P2, P4 or P5 when shooting as identified above (example: P3, P2, P1, P5, MISS - P3, P3, P3, P3, P3)...

 

I would assess a miss as there's no way to judge intent and a miss can't cause a P.

 

What if the stage instructions read:

With pistols, starting and ending on P3, engage the five pistol targets with at least one round each.  Each target must be HIT with at least one round.

 

Would that then be a miss and a P?

[Eyesa Horg]

Clarification would be needed, but I would have expected those direction for EACH pistol, not P3 to be a dump target for the second pistol.

[Captain Bill Burt]

26 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Clarification would be needed, but I would have expected those direction for EACH pistol, not P3 to be a dump target for the second pistol.

Those type instructions aren’t fair to gunfighters since they don’t have a ‘first’ and ‘second’ pistol.

[Hoss]

32 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Those type instructions aren’t fair to gunfighters since they don’t have a ‘first’ and ‘second’ pistol.

Gunfighters don’t get special instructions or dispensation. They have to shoot scenario same as everyone else. 
 

As a 2 handed shooter I’d shoot it 

1st pistol 3 4 5 5 5

2bs pistol 1 2 3 3 3

 

a M cannot cause a P. 
 

I’ve never seen instructions that require hit. 

 

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

28 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Those type instructions aren’t fair to gunfighters since they don’t have a ‘first’ and ‘second’ pistol.

 

Quote

Stage instructions that specify separate revolvers such as “first pistol/second pistol,” “left revolver/right revolver,” or “with each handgun” are interpreted as “1st five shots/2nd five shots” when shooting Gunfighter style.

SHB p.7

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

"If a shooter misses either P1, P2, P4 or P5 when shooting as identified above (example: P3, P2, P1, P5, MISS - P3, P3, P3, P3, P3)...

 

I would assess a miss as there's no way to judge intent and a miss can't cause a P."
***************

The stage instructions say "engage"
A miss on a target is an "engagement", so the shooter would have followed the stage instructions.

Penalty is  5 seconds for the miss.

 

We don't give instructions for "first" and "second" pistol anymore.
We say First 5 rounds, and second 5 rounds now





 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

1 hour ago, Chief Rick said:

...What if the stage instructions read:

With pistols, starting and ending on P3, engage the five pistol targets with at least one round each.  Each target must be HIT with at least one round.

 

Would that then be a miss and a P?

I would say no, because like you said, a miss can't cause a P.

 

Around here when a stage is written like that, it will often have added "no double taps" or "no triple taps"

[Chief Rick]

1 hour ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Clarification would be needed, but I would have expected those direction for EACH pistol, not P3 to be a dump target for the second pistol.

 

51 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Those type instructions aren’t fair to gunfighters since they don’t have a ‘first’ and ‘second’ pistol.

I don't understand the request for more clarification.

 

It's a round-count stage.

 

10 rounds - five targets - the only requirements are:

1 - start and end on P3

2 - engage P1, P2, P4, and P5 at least once.

 

A shooter can choose the best way to engage based on their particular shooting style. 

 

I also really don't comprehend how it's unfair to any particular shooting style, especially gunfighters.

[Griff]

1 hour ago, Chief Rick said:

What if the stage instructions read:

With pistols, starting and ending on P3, engage the five pistol targets with at least one round each.  Each target must be HIT with at least one round.

 

Would that then be a miss and a P?

In the "way-back" machine, I recall a stage that said:  Engage the rifle and shotgun targets then hit the stop plate with the pistol.  (This was in the days when we only used one pistol).  The stop plate was wired to the timer,  A hit on it was the only way to stop the clock.  Shooting a cap n ball revolver, I missed the stop plate with all five rounds in my pistol.  (It was placed well beyond 30 yards).  This was also in the days (and the cause I began) loading the sixth chamber and carrying my capper to the line...  I paused and asked if I could reload a rifle round.  Told no.  So I ran up to the target and hit it with the butt of the pistol, stopping my stage time.  

 

Yes, I protested the stage as NO ONE else had hit the stop plate with their pistol...  only bullets! 

[Chief Rick]

  

1 hour ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

I would say no, because like you said, a miss can't cause a P.

 

Around here when a stage is written like that, it will often have added "no double taps" or "no triple taps"

I would not intentionally write a stage to say this, but...

 

If the stage instructions read:

 

With pistols, starting and ending on P3, engage the five pistol targets with at least one round each.  Each target must be HIT with at least one round.

 

The shooter draws first pistol and hits P3 but then has two misses, then hits P4 and P5.  Shooter then draws second pistol and chooses to dump on P3.  Would that be a failure to follow stage instructions?  Shooter had the opportunity with the second pistol to HIT P1 and P2 before finishing on P3.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Just now, Chief Rick said:

  

I would not intentionally write a stage to say this, but...

 

If the stage instructions read:

 

With pistols, starting and ending on P3, engage the five pistol targets with at least one round each.  Each target must be HIT with at least one round.

 

The shooter draws first pistol and hits P3 but then has two misses, then hits P4 and P5.  Shooter then draws second pistol and chooses to dump on P3.  Would that be a failure to follow stage instructions?  Shooter had the opportunity with the second pistol to HIT P4 and P5 before finishing on P3.

 

IMO...NO.
Regardless of that unnecessary mandate, this always applies:

Quote

Double Jeopardy applies- a miss cannot cause a procedural. To help understand this concept, please reference the Miss Flow Chart in Section 7 of this handbook.

SHB p.21

 

Miss Flow Chart in Section 7 (SHB p.40)

[Captain Bill Burt]

20 minutes ago, Chief Rick said:

 

I don't understand the request for more clarification.

 

It's a round-count stage.

 

10 rounds - five targets - the only requirements are:

1 - start and end on P3

2 - engage P1, P2, P4, and P5 at least once.

 

A shooter can choose the best way to engage based on their particular shooting style. 

 

I also really don't comprehend how it's unfair to any particular shooting style, especially gunfighters.

PWB correctly reminded me that first pistol second pistol instructions should be interpreted as first five shots, second five shots. Thats what I was referring to, the instructions Eysa Horg mentioned, not the stage, which is pretty straightforward. I would shoot it 3,3,3,4,5,1,2,3,3,3.

[Idaho Gunslinger]

The closest thing I can think of to saying you must hit targets is a stage using say 5 knockdown targets and then a dump target. With the stage rules usually just saying knockdown all the targets then dump remaining rounds on the dump target. 

 

My local club has a cool tombstone knockdown rack that has a large-ish tombstone at the front and when you knock it down there is a smaller one behind it for 5 tombstones total. We usually use it in Wild Bunch matches with a dump plate.

[Eyesa Horg]

40 minutes ago, Chief Rick said:

I don't understand the request for more clarification.

I would have asked/clarified if each pistol had to follow the instruction.

However, now rereading the instruction, that would not be possible with 5 shots. I'm tired and had my head up my butt , but I did shoot my first clean local match today! 

[Sam Sackett]

I would have shot it this way. 3,2,1,2,3 with first pistol. 3,4,5,4,3 with second pistol. Instructions could have been interpreted that way. Start and finish on 3 .. with each pistol…….    Poorly written instructions…..

 

Sam Sackett 

[Hells Comin]

3,22,11,44,555

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

1 minute ago, Hells Comin said:

3,22,11,44,555

 

That no work..."starting and ending on P3"

[Barry Sloe]

If there is a specific way that you want a stage shot (or not shot) that needs to be specified in the stage write-up.  Otherwise, a 3, 1, 2, 4, 5, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3 is in the works for the gamers.  Not me, of course, just the gamers.

 

BS

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

As a Left gun first Gunfighter...

3, 5, 1, 4, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3.

 

As for the 2nd part of the OP.

 

The penalty for not following a given sequence is a "P".

 

The penalty for not striking a target is a "miss".

 

But you cannot conflate the two requirements.

 

Missing a target (completely and totally missing - not striking a like target) can never be scored a "P" 

 

Striking a (firearm correct) target can never be scored a miss.

[Hells Comin]

1 hour ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

That no work..."starting and ending on P3"

That's exactly why I don't listen to myself. 

[Rye Miles #13621]

3-1-2-4-5 33333 

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

I think the instructions as written are fine, I may be different but as a double duelist I'd shoot it 3-4-4-5-5-1-1-2-2-3, shooting my right pistol first.

 

Randy

[Jeb Stuart #65654]

18 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Clarification would be needed, but I would have expected those direction for EACH pistol, not P3 to be a dump target for the second pistol.

I think they are clear, stage instructions state with pistols, meaning both, engage each target at least once.  After P3, P2, P1, P5, P4, the shooter can put the last 5 shots wherever he wants.

[Wrangler Bob]

I've been known to come up with some "unorthodox" shooting; as I read this "with pistols, starting and ending on P3 engage the five pistol targets with at least one round each". Being a two handed shooter, I would have shot [first pistol]: 3-1-2-4-3, [second pistol]: 3-4-5-2-3.

That's my interpretation of the instructions, feel free to correct me [I'm learning something new every day].

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

You could shoot it that way but you only need to hit 3 with your first shot and your last shot of the 10 pistol shots.

[James Henry Parker SASS#76661]

It was a fun stage you could shoot it different ways as long as you start with the first shot and the last shot on the red target and hit the other four targets with at least one round

[Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667]

When stage instructions say that such-and-such target must be hit, I read that as if it said “engage(d)”.

 

Otherwise a miss might very well cause a Procedural.

[Scarlett]

22 hours ago, Chief Rick said:

 

I also really don't comprehend how it's unfair to any particular shooting style, especially gunfighters

It’s not… I’d love this stage! I’d do

P3 P3 then work outside and back in on both sides ending with a double

tap on P3! Fun!

 

Hugs!

Scarlett

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

7 hours ago, Jeb Stuart #65654 said:

I think they are clear, stage instructions state with pistols, meaning both, engage each target at least once.  After P3, P2, P1, P5, P4, the shooter can put the last 5 shots wherever he wants.

No, sir!  Last shot has to be on P3.

[Hells Comin]

P3,P2,P2,P1,P1 -

P5,P4,P4,P3,P3

THIS WAY u are using the same sequence with both pistols 1-2-2 and found that  double taps are quicker on a timer. 2 handed style 

Hells Comin 

 

[Tennessee williams]

I like it. As a duelist right pistol first I'd shoot it 3,4,5,4,3,3,2,1,2,3 

 

I wrote one with the same setup but different sequence. The center red target was a double tap tag. So it was 1,3,3,2,3,3,4,3,3,5. TN two step

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

Shooting duelist I hate dump targets so I would shoot it first pistol 3-2-1-2-3 and second pistol 3-4-5-4-3, two separate Nevada sweeps each starting and ending on the center target.

[Chief Rick]

On 4/21/2024 at 9:01 PM, Sam Sackett said:

I would have shot it this way. 3,2,1,2,3 with first pistol. 3,4,5,4,3 with second pistol. Instructions could have been interpreted that way. Start and finish on 3 .. with each pistol…….    Poorly written instructions…..

 

Sam Sackett 

Poor comprehension?  Or do you prefer being told how to shoot every stage?

 

It's a shooter's choice - round count stage.

[Chief Rick]

23 hours ago, Barry Sloe said:

If there is a specific way that you want a stage shot (or not shot) that needs to be specified in the stage write-up.  Otherwise, a 3, 1, 2, 4, 5, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3 is in the works for the gamers.  Not me, of course, just the gamers.

 

BS

That's the thing - there's not a specific way to shoot the stage.

 

Why do so many people want to be told to shoot every stage a specific way? (Not necessarily saying you're one of those, but I do shoot with some people that don't want any shooters choice stages.)

[Chief Rick]

9 hours ago, Wrangler Bob said:

I've been known to come up with some "unorthodox" shooting; as I read this "with pistols, starting and ending on P3 engage the five pistol targets with at least one round each". Being a two handed shooter, I would have shot [first pistol]: 3-1-2-4-3, [second pistol]: 3-4-5-2-3.

That's my interpretation of the instructions, feel free to correct me [I'm learning something new every day].

That is an acceptable way to shoot the stage.