What's the call?

[J.S. Sooner, SASS #73526]

Seems like you are missing something.  Stage diagram shows shotgun targets but no instructions for shotgun.  Were they just props for this stage?  I could see this stage run as 10 rifle knockdowns with any left standing taken down with shotgun after 2 shotgun targets are down. 

[Dusty Devil Dale]

1 hour ago, Shawnee Hills said:

 

Seems like "With rifle, engage the 10 rifle knock-down targets" covers that.  I read it as all 10 rifle targets are to be engaged with one round each from the rifle . . . provided that it was to be loaded with only 10 rounds and no reload allowed.  In the case of the already downed plate, then the shooter must shoot "where it was".  Since the shooter did not do that then it seems like he/she earned a miss.  Since no makeup was allowed, via "With rifle, engage the 10 rifle knock-down targets", then it appears that a P would have been earned as well.  The pistol run was clean.

 

At least, that's how I'm reading it.  May be right, may be wrong, but interested in how this shakes out.

Because no target order was specified, and one round  contacted no target, you don't know which target the shooter was engaging.  Shooter may have been "shooting where it was" for the fallen plate.  Shooter could do that at any time in the rifle string.  So it is conjecture to say shooter reengaged one missed rifle target.  

Edited April 4 by Dusty Devil Dale

[Shawnee Hills]

30 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Because no target order was specified, and one round  contacted no target, you don't know which target the shooter was engaging.  Shooter may have been "shooting where it was" for the fallen plate.  Shooter could do that at any time in the rifle string.  So it is conjecture to say shooter reengaged one missed rifle target.  

 

The OP's statement clarifies this, I think.  It reads:

 

The first three rounds knock down the first three targets. 

Shooter misses the fourth target with the fourth shot. 

Shooter re-engages the fourth target, knocks it down and then knocks down the remaining targets.

 

According to this, we know that the shooter reengaged the fourth target again after missing it the first time.  Not sure how that cannot be a miss but I'm not looking to penalize anyone either.  As long as the calls are consistent with all shooters, it likely matters not . . . so long as the match is a monthly.

[Sedalia Dave]

7 hours ago, Rance - SASS # 54090 said:

One “ P”.. for inadvertently hitting a rifle target with a pistol..

 

Care to provide a SHB reference for this?

[Sedalia Dave]

40 minutes ago, Shawnee Hills said:

it likely matters not . . . so long as the match is a monthly.

 

Why does it not matter if it is a monthly match?  Failure to follow and correctly apply the rules at monthly matches just means that when those same people attend bigger matches incorrect calls are made.

 

Like it or not monthly matches is where we learn so we need to learn the correct way.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

17 minutes ago, Shawnee Hills said:

 

The OP's statement clarifies this, I think.  It reads:

 

The first three rounds knock down the first three targets. 

Shooter misses the fourth target with the fourth shot. 

Shooter re-engages the fourth target, knocks it down and then knocks down the remaining targets.

 

we know that the shooter reengaged the fourth target again after missing it the first time. 

No. 

The OP is delivering their subjective opinion of what happened.  The only person who KNOWS what they intended is the shooter and honestly - what they intended is immaterial to the call.

 

What WE actually know and can score on or potentially assign penalty on is the following.

The shooter had 10 pistol rounds to knockdown 5 pistol targets.

AND we know that misses on the PISTOL knockdowns do not count.

 

Shooter engaged pistol knockdowns - in the course of engaging pistol knockdowns; a PISTOL round struck and knocked down a RIFLE target.

Shooter completed the pistol knockdown string and placed remaining rounds on the pistol dump target.

 

Lets score this so far.

Misses on pistol knockdowns do not count.

All pistol knockdowns were down before transitioning to the dump.

Shooter had no misses on the dump plate.

So no miss penalty is present.

The pistol round that struck the RIFLE target is immaterial as for purposes of scoring - targets assigned to a specific type firearm DO NOT EXIST for any other type firearm.  The pistol round striking a rifle plate is not a hit, nor a procedural as that target is "not present" - it is considered "air".

 

So no misses - no P for pistols.

 

So now rifle - there exists 10 RIFLE knockdowns with 10 RIFLE rounds to engage.

One RIFLE knockdown has fallen - in this case because of an errant pistol round; but the reason is immaterial (under other circumstances, it could have been wind, rack vibration or a host of reasons).

So having 9 available targets (with NO assigned order) and 10 rounds for engagement - we KNOW one round will be designated for "air".

The shooter struck three targets - 4th went to air and then completed the knockdown string.

There is NO definition of "shoot where it was" - a round safely discharged downrange from the proper firearm at an appropriate time in the shooting string is sufficient.

As there was no shooting order - the rifle round designated for air could be expended at ANYTIME in the rifle string.

 

10 rifle rounds expended - 10 knockdowns down.

No rifle misses - no p.

 

Clean shooter.

 

In THIS instance - the pistol round that struck and knocked down the rifle target was (assumedly) an accident.

I "could" see other penalties (SoG) being applicable IF the shooter were deliberately attempting to take down rifle targets by pistol for some form of advantage knowing they was no other penalty for doing so.  But thats a different discussion.

[Sedalia Dave]

The ONLY way to judge shooters intent is to ask them.  If you don't ask the shooter why they did something then you cannot ASSUME their intent. 

 

Had the TO asked the shooter "Did you reengage target 4 because you missed it?" If the shooter answered yes, then it would be a miss. If the shooter said no, round 4 was for the rifle target that was already down then the shooter does not get a miss.

[Nutmeg Ryder, SASS # 74966]

We can not judge the intent of the shooter, only where the bullets impact. 

 

Pistols, No call, 5 KD's, all down, no misses on the dump. 

The OP does not specify which rifle target was knocked down by the pistol round. 

Rifle, misses #4, how can anyone absolutely know the shooter was aiming at #4? Maybe they were aiming at number 9 and missed really badly? (IM my head I am saying #9 was the one knocked down by the pistol) So they missed #9 really bad, went back and shot 4,5,6,7,8,and 10 thus all KD's are down.  

 

No Miss, No P. 

Now go set some targets. Next shooter.  

 

In the writing of the stage, more clarification could maybe be used for the rifle string, like "sweep the 10 targets left to right one round on each"  then a reengagement of the 4th target with the 5th round would be a P, but the OP instructions did not have that amount of detail.  

 

As a stage writer, we need to be clear with what we want a shooter to do, or not to do.  Use just as many words as you need, not more, not less.  

This one sounds fun, I would like to shoot it, with or without more clarification. 

 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

5 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

The ONLY way to judge shooters intent is to ask them.  If you don't ask the shooter why they did something then you cannot ASSUME their intent. 

 

Had the TO asked the shooter "Did you reengage target 4 because you missed it?" If the shooter answered yes, then it would be a miss. If the shooter said no, round 4 was for the rifle target that was already down then the shooter does not get a miss.

Nope, absolutely not - we do not score hits or misses on shooters intent.

We score hits, misses or procedurals based on the results of their action - target was struck or the target was missed.

 

So we are going to ask the shooter did you mean to miss that one?

And when they say, "No, I missed it - but realized I had to miss one of them anyway - so I decided that one was as good as any".

You are going to penalize him for doing exactly the same as another shooter with the same options (that says they did it on purpose)?

 

The only time INTENT enters the discussion is when Spirit of the Game penalties arise.

Edited April 4 by Creeker, SASS #43022

[Rafe Conager SASS #56958]

Ok I'm confused  OP states that  instructions are "With rifle, engage the 10 rifle knock-down targets." Then states that shooter re-engage missed rifle target so how is it not at least a p for not engaging all rifle targets with their rifle?

[Eyesa Horg]

4 minutes ago, Rafe Conager SASS #56958 said:

Ok I'm confused  OP states that  instructions are "With rifle, engage the 10 rifle knock-down targets." Then states that shooter re-engage missed rifle target so how is it not at least a p for not engaging all rifle targets with their rifle?

You make a good point.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

8 minutes ago, Rafe Conager SASS #56958 said:

Ok I'm confused  OP states that  instructions are "With rifle, engage the 10 rifle knock-down targets." Then states that shooter re-engage missed rifle target so how is it not at least a p for not engaging all rifle targets with their rifle?

OP is incorrectly using the term

"re-engaged"

 

10 rifle targets

1 down.

So only 9 targets available for engagement.

shooter engaged 3 kd targets.

fired a round that did not strike a target.

OP is presuming that round was aimed at target 4 (but there is no way to prove or disprove that).

Shooter continued on the knockdowns with target 4.

 

Without a target order - there is no specified or required correlation between round number and target number.

 

All we can verify is each STANDING target received a round.

The "downed" target had a round safely discharged downrange for it.

10 rounds expended - 10 targets down.

No misses - No p - No re-engagement.

 

Edited April 4 by Creeker, SASS #43022

[Hawkeye Kid]

7 hours ago, Chief Rick said:

This is the first time we've run this scenario with the targets set up in these positions.

 

We called it clean.

 

Per pistol instructions, only standing bottles or misses on the dump plate are misses - after 10 rounds, there were no standing bottles or misses on the dump target.

 

Per rifle instructions, there was no target order.  10 shots were fired and 10 plates were down.

 

Would any of you calling a P or a Miss change your call if wind had caused one of the rifle targets to fall?

 

The issue was with some of the rifle target locations not allowing a clean miss of a pistol target without affecting a rifle target.  This is not an issue with stationary targets, but as you can see it can have an effect on knock-downs.  I have ideas on how to make that work better going forward.

 

We don't shoot these often because it takes a lot of time to set them up in first place to ensure they fall reliably, without falling with a gust of wind.  It also takes considerably more time to reset.

 

That said, we enjoy variety and using what we have.

This is an old issue that will never get resolved with 100% agreement.  If the wind (or pistol shot) knocked down rifle target #10, and the first rifle miss was after engaging rifle target 3, can you honestly say the shooter skipped from target 3 aimed at where target 10 was, jumped back to target 4, and finished the string?  If down target was one after the last target hit, (3 is hit, 5 is down, next target to engage is 4)  you could make the case shooter jumped from 3 to 5 and back to target 4 to complete the string.  The no call scenario would be Target 3 is hit, 4 is down, 5 needs to be engaged, a miss on 5 could be considered engagement of target 4, shooter gets to try again on target 5.

 

However, the general consensus will be 10 shots fired, 10 knockdown are down, clean,next shooter.

 

 

[Nutmeg Ryder, SASS # 74966]

17 minutes ago, Hawkeye Kid said:

This is an old issue that will never get resolved with 100% agreement.  If the wind (or pistol shot) knocked down rifle target #10, and the first rifle miss was after engaging rifle target 3, can you honestly say the shooter skipped from target 3 aimed at where target 10 was, jumped back to target 4, and finished the string?  If down target was one after the last target hit, (3 is hit, 5 is down, next target to engage is 4)  you could make the case shooter jumped from 3 to 5 and back to target 4 to complete the string.  The no call scenario would be Target 3 is hit, 4 is down, 5 needs to be engaged, a miss on 5 could be considered engagement of target 4, shooter gets to try again on target 5.

 

However, the general consensus will be 10 shots fired, 10 knockdown are down, clean,next shooter.

 

 

As there is not an assignment of shots to targets no assumption can be made as to where shot #4 with the rifle was intended, unless the shooter says "I aimed at..." 

So 10 knock downs, 10 targets down, empty rifle, no call. 

RACK EM' 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

4 minutes ago, Hawkeye Kid said:

This is an old issue that will never get resolved with 100% agreement.

 

can you honestly say the shooter skipped from target 3 aimed at where target 10 was, jumped back to target 4, and finished the string?

Can YOU 100%, hand to God - absolutely positively guarantee they didn't?

 

"Benefit of a doubt goes to the shooter" is a basic founding tenet of this game.

 

Trying to interject "I think" and "I dont believe anyone would do it that way" into the scoring instead of simply analyzing the objective measurable result of the shooters actions is why 90% of these "Whats the call" threads exist.

 

We have all seen it - someone has an accidental discharge but still strikes the correct target; do we penalize them because they "should" have had a miss?

No.  Because we score on objective results - not anyones opinion of what "should have happened".

 

When stage instructions allow; I have been known to shoot stages completely contrary to what everyone else on the posse did.  And sometimes, just for giggles in a less efficient manner as well.

As long as it is within the rules; my or your "Opinion" of how someone should have or would have engaged the stage doesn't count for anything.

Only the objective measurable outcome from their actions.

[John Kloehr]

20 minutes ago, Hawkeye Kid said:

This is an old issue that will never get resolved with 100% agreement.  If the wind (or pistol shot) knocked down rifle target #10, and the first rifle miss was after engaging rifle target 3, can you honestly say the shooter skipped from target 3 aimed at where target 10 was, jumped back to target 4, and finished the string?  If down target was one after the last target hit, (3 is hit, 5 is down, next target to engage is 4)  you could make the case shooter jumped from 3 to 5 and back to target 4 to complete the string.  The no call scenario would be Target 3 is hit, 4 is down, 5 needs to be engaged, a miss on 5 could be considered engagement of target 4, shooter gets to try again on target 5.

 

However, the general consensus will be 10 shots fired, 10 knockdown are down, clean,next shooter.

 

 

You are 100% right if target order was specified but it was not. Sort of agree with you but rules are rules.

[Nutmeg Ryder, SASS # 74966]

6 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Can YOU 100%, hand to God - absolutely positively guarantee they didn't?

 

"Benefit of a doubt goes to the shooter" is a basic founding tenet of this game.

 

Trying to interject "I think" and "I dont believe anyone would do it that way" into the scoring instead of simply analyzing the objective measurable result of the shooters actions is why 90% of these "Whats the call" threads exist.

 

We have all seen it - someone has an accidental discharge but still strikes the correct target; do we penalize them because they "should" have had a miss?

No.  Because we score on objective results - not anyones opinion of what "should have happened".

 

When stage instructions allow; I have been known to shoot stages completely contrary to what everyone else on the posse did.  And sometimes, just for giggles in a less efficient manner as well.

As long as it is within the rules; my or your "Opinion" of how someone should have or would have engaged the stage doesn't count for anything.

Only the objective measurable outcome from their actions.

Here in New England we call it the Driftwood Johnson way,  with his black powder loads, it certainly keeps spotters on their toes.  

[Hawkeye Kid]

11 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Can YOU 100%, hand to God - absolutely positively guarantee they didn't?

 

"Benefit of a doubt goes to the shooter" is a basic founding tenet of this game.

 

Trying to interject "I think" and "I dont believe anyone would do it that way" into the scoring instead of simply analyzing the objective measurable result of the shooters actions is why 90% of these "Whats the call" threads exist.

 

We have all seen it - someone has an accidental discharge but still strikes the correct target; do we penalize them because they "should" have had a miss?

No.  Because we score on objective results - not anyones opinion of what "should have happened".

 

 

Agree you can’t be 100% hand of God - absolute positively guarantee on what the shooter was trying to do or not do.

You can see the miss, and depending on target placement was the miss in the vicinity of the target?  Hard call if targets are close together to say which target was being engaged, far apart not so difficult.  However, I do agree benefit of a doubt goes to the Shooter.

Lucky to be the Shooter in these situations.

No call - clean.

[Dusty Devil Dale]

5 hours ago, Rafe Conager SASS #56958 said:

Ok I'm confused  OP states that  instructions are "With rifle, engage the 10 rifle knock-down targets." Then states that shooter re-engage missed rifle target so how is it not at least a p for not engaging all rifle targets with their rifle?

They fired ten rifle rounds.  One of the targets was already down, so one round only had to go downrange.  Instructions do not specify which one.  Nine rounds hit targets and one went downrange.  You cannot assign a penalty based on speculation as to what target was engaged/missed when there is no target sequence specified.  The miss was just the downrange round.

 

Shooter is CLEAN.

Edited April 5 by Dusty Devil Dale

[Barry Sloe]

I'm curious.  While all this magical shooting was going on, where was the TO and spotters?

The TO should have a clue as to which target was being aimed at.  

The shooter seemed to be going down the line of rifle targets, what did the spotters see?

 

I'll revise my original count to 2 misses. 1 miss on target #4 and a miss for not shooting where the downed target was.

 

Sure wish PWB would chime in.

 

BS

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

As was mentioned, you cannot judge intent, only objective results and judge that against established rules and, in this case, the stage instructions.

5 pistol KD with 10 rounds and a dump. All pistol KD down and no misses on the dump... clean pistols. 10 rifle KD with 10 rifle shots. All 10 rifle KD down... clean rifle.

Yes, it "appears" the shooter had a miss on a pistol KD by hitting a rifle KD, BUT stage instructions say misses will only be assessed for pistol KD left up and dump misses... none of either. Yes, it "appears" the shooter had a rifle miss and fired at that KD again to take it down. 10 rounds were fired and all rifle KD are down... clean again. It is MUCH easier to look at this later and analyze and reanalyze (and reanalyze) but the ROs are to give the benefit to the shooter and you have to look at what the results are and compare to stage inst first. Clean

[Captain Bill Burt]

40 minutes ago, Barry Sloe said:

I'm curious.  While all this magical shooting was going on, where was the TO and spotters?

The TO should have a clue as to which target was being aimed at.  

The shooter seemed to be going down the line of rifle targets, what did the spotters see?

 

I'll revise my original count to 2 misses. 1 miss on target #4 and a miss for not shooting where the downed target was.

 

Sure wish PWB would chime in.

 

BS

So even though the stage directions said "ONLY STANDING BOTTLES OR MISSES ON THE DUMP PLATE COUNT AS MISSES." you would assess a miss on pistol target #4, which was not standing at the end of the stage?  What is your rationale for that?

 

Also, what difference does it make what target the TO thinks the shooter was aiming at?  I'm as prone to being wrong as the next guy, but I think what matters is what target the shooter hits.  

Edited April 5 by Captain Bill Burt

[Dusty Devil Dale]

The stage instructions appear to be written to give leeway for unhit plates falling accidentally.  It is essentially a plate count and round count stage.  Regardless of suspicions, the shooter was clean.  That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

That's without even considering the likelihood of a separate target interference issue between the P and R target array.  

[Shawnee Hills]

Still think there's a miss and a possible P on the rifle targets but will bring this up at our upcoming ROI & 2 classes.  Interested in what @PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L and TW think about this. 

[Texas Maverick]

Where is Palewolf when you need him. 

 

TM

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

6 minutes ago, Texas Maverick said:

Where is Palewolf when you need him. 

 

Probably laughing his butt off.

 

Edited April 5 by Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933

[Texas Maverick]

8 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

 

Probably laughing his butt off.

 

I think he is waiting to see how long we will beat this dead horse. LOL

 

TM

[Black Angus McPherson]

1 hour ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

 

Probably laughing his butt off.

 

 

My thoughts exactly!

 

Just to stir the pot a little.  For those pushing the "What target was he shooting at when he missed?"  Who's to say his thoughts weren't "I need to pop off a round into nowhere for the down target.  I'll just put this one 3" over target #4 now, then continue"?  Miss because he didn't shoot where the down target was?   How about he hits 1,2,3,4,5, six is already down so he pops off a round that obviously hits 4 feet to the left of #6, hits 7,8,9 and 10.  Is that still a miss because he didn't shoot where #6 WAS?  

 

I believe Palewolf is sitting back and watching, being highly entertained by this discussion.  I know I am.

 

Angus

 

 

Edited April 5 by Black Angus McPherson
Cowrecked bad Speling

[Captain Bill Burt]

Maybe he's conserving his supply of blue 'ink'...?

[Krazy Kajun]

24 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Maybe he's conserving his supply of blue 'ink'...?

Zakly

 

Kajun

[J-BAR #18287]

Laughing??

 

I suspect PWB is shaking his head and weeping.

[Kid Rich]

Sad part is some of us have to shoot with the pards that are wantin to give p's and misses.

kR

[mean gun mark]

Creeker, thank you for breaking it down in a way many might understand,  definitely a need for some ro refresh training.    

[Chief Rick]

On 4/4/2024 at 2:35 PM, Marshal Dan Troop 70448 said:

Seems like poor stage instructions...

Marshal, I'm quoting you only because you are the first (or is it last??) to make this comment.

 

Stage instructions:

With pistols, first engage the five bottles then place all remaining rounds on the dump plate.

 

With rifle, engage the 10 rifle knock-down targets.

 

Anyone stating that these are poor stage instructions, please explain how this could be written any more clearly.

[Chief Rick]

On 4/4/2024 at 4:46 PM, J.S. Sooner, SASS #73526 said:

Seems like you are missing something.  Stage diagram shows shotgun targets but no instructions for shotgun.  Were they just props for this stage?  I could see this stage run as 10 rifle knockdowns with any left standing taken down with shotgun after 2 shotgun targets are down. 

Shotgun is irrelevant to the situation.