Hells Comin Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 How many posses started like this ? Posse 33 was instructed that your guns needed to be flat on shelf and not on the 2×4 ! There were 2 stages like this. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 (edited) Should have been 100% that staged them flat. From the SASS Shooters Handbook: All long guns initially staged on a horizontal surface shall be staged lying flat where at least the rear of the trigger guard is on the staging area Edited March 3 by Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Go West Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 That would be wrong. Who would do such a thing? Who would start someone in a faulted position? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beartrap SASS#57175 Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 Oh-Oh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 Curious if stage instructions stated long guns flat on the table or if it read “staged safely”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken George* Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 We were told in the PM walk through that no guns could be on the board. 8 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toranado, SASS # 58447 Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 (edited) Not enough room on the table for a right handed shooter shooting a double. The way the double bends made it in my opinion a disadvantage for double shooter and possible issue on 11 it could have been a start with rifle in hands and restage vertically and would have been better or move the board back farther forward on the table and make it taller if want it safer. JMHO Edited March 3 by Toranado, SASS # 58447 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Henry Parker SASS#76661 Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 If instructions said flat on table then anyone not doing it was in the wrong. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 51 minutes ago, Toranado, SASS # 58447 said: Not enough room on the table for a right handed shooter shooting a double. The way the double bends made it in my opinion a disadvantage for double shooter and possible issue on 11 it could have been a start with rifle in hands and restage vertically and would have been better or move the board back farther forward on the table and make it taller if want it safer. JMHO Every stage in a match can’t and shouldn’t IMO favor a double shooter. I saw plenty of videos of right handed double shooters who didn’t have any issues with the amount of space given on that stage. While it may not have been the ideal amount for how you would like to have staged them, it was enough. 12 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 It really doesn't matter whether one "likes it or not" and the photo shows enough room to the left on the table to stage an open double. If everyone is shooting the same instructions a poor prop design is immaterial. I realize there are those who are gaming for every last millisecond, but you do what you gotta do The double gun, as shown in the picture is a Procedural. PLUS ONE for Smokestack 7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Jack Black Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 So what does this mean .Is the whole match now tainted? Not the same playing field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 Technically, stage design shouldn't give an advantage to anyone except the inherently talented, nimble and athletic. The rest of us have to rely on practice, or if you will... experience & deceit. Actually sentence two is only there for comic relief. (... Sort of)! 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawnee Hills Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 How were the long guns directed to be staged in the stage instructions? Unless I am mistaken, that would serve as the ‘final answer’. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toranado, SASS # 58447 Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Shawnee Hills said: How were the long guns directed to be staged in the stage instructions? Unless I am mistaken, that would serve as the ‘final answer’. Stage direction said “stage guns anywhere safely”, but Posse Marshal said all guns flat on table. Edited March 3 by Toranado, SASS # 58447 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 Flat on the table. I even asked and was told flat on the table. 3 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade Roper Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 RO walk thru said no guns on the red board. Posse 3 also verified w/match RO's because we were told some posses started like the pic and we were told flat on the table. We also couldnt stage any guns on the opposite side of the red board (there was room to, as well as room on the left side of the board, just awkward). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellowstone Vic SASS#32968 Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 Posse 16 was flat on the table per posse Marshall instructions and clarification, HC. There wasn’t enough room for a left handed double shooter In the other tower either but we staged’em flat. I wonder about stage 6 also….. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadfinger Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 The stage design in my opinion was fine. The question I think one would ask themselves was where was the consistency with relaying the information to the shooter making sure all the shooters were at a fair advantage when shooting the stage. Ultimately I shot the stage with all my firearms properly placed flat on the shelf as instructed by the posse marshall. If I had my choice on this stage I would have probably or most definitely staged my double barrel as it is in the picture not knowing if it gave me an advantage but would have made the transitions more to my liking. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 Altered instructions given at marshal walk through, since they are not in writing, really depend upon accurate recall by posse marshals at the time of every stage-start over 3 days and in high pressure situations. It is likely that instructions which make actions more restricted than what is in the handbook sometimes get "conveniently ignored." Our posse marshal made sure we followed the revised instructions as presented in the walkthrough. Perhaps for big matches, final stage instructions as discussed in the walk through should be posted at EACH loading table with the changes which are to be followed HIGHLIGHTED. As well as the posse marshals all provided a revised set of stage instructions before match begins. There were some 35 or so folks in an outdoor setting for the posse marshal walkthrough, with some no longer blessed with perfect hearing. What would you really expect? Time at big matches exists to do this well - we ought to do it. good luck, GJ 9 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild lead Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 We were allowed to stage on the opposite side of the red board 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toranado, SASS # 58447 Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 3 hours ago, Texas Jack Black said: So what does this mean .Is the whole match now tainted? Not the same playing field. Don’t get me wrong, I think this years EOT from a target size, distance, spacing and scenarios was one of the BEST! Just felt the set up and space to stage 2 firearms was tight on one stage and if think about it, tough for a left handed from the other side also. Overall outstanding event!! Great job by all the rangers! 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crisco Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 Match director was absolutely clear during the posse marshal walk thru that no part of either gun could be on the board at any time before or after the beep. It was emphasized several times. Hard to blame allowing it on brain fade… 4 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dilli GaHoot Galoot Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 What was the reasoning behind having that board there in the first place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixgun Seamus Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 14 minutes ago, Dilli GaHoot Galoot said: What was the reasoning behind having that board there in the first place? It was to make sure the restaged firearm was pointed into the berm. 5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawnee Hills Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 Seems like there was a breakdown in communication. Just my opinion (and worth only what you paid for it) but the change, or additional clarification, probably should have been posted at that position. However, at the end of the day, did it cost anyone prize money or decrease the fun in any way? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick McClade Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 Posse 15 all staged them flat. Definitely enough room for both guns to be staged. I staged them together without any problems or issues. Seems to be poor leadership by the Posse marshal. 9 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 (edited) 2 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said: . Edited March 4 by Smokestack SASS#87384 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 2 hours ago, Shawnee Hills said: Seems like there was a breakdown in communication. Just my opinion (and worth only what you paid for it) but the change, or additional clarification, probably should have been posted at that position. However, at the end of the day, did it cost anyone prize money or decrease the fun in any way? People traveled half way around the world to shoot the biggest highest level championship there is. It is not a triviality and deserves more attention than that. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Half-a-Hand Henri Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 9 hours ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said: Curious if stage instructions stated long guns flat on the table or if it read “staged safely”. Conventions state flat! 4 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Half-a-Hand Henri Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 5 hours ago, Yellowstone Vic SASS#32968 said: Posse 16 was flat on the table per posse Marshall instructions and clarification, HC. There wasn’t enough room for a left handed double shooter In the other tower either but we staged’em flat. I wonder about stage 6 also….. Posse 4 did it correctly, too. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 4 minutes ago, Half-a-Hand Henri said: Conventions state flat! Yes, but by their very definition, stage conventions only apply in the absence of specific instruction. For instance if the instruction were to stage long guns on the table in the window, the convention would stipulate that they lay flat as the table is a horizontal surface. But if the instruction were simply “stage long guns safely” the stage convention would not apply to any non horizontal surface, such as across that board or vertically against the wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 2 hours ago, Shawnee Hills said: Seems like there was a breakdown in communication. Just my opinion (and worth only what you paid for it) but the change, or additional clarification, probably should have been posted at that position. However, at the end of the day, did it cost anyone prize money or decrease the fun in any way? I wasn’t there this year so I suppose I have no dog in this hunt but I’d still like to answer your question. The difference between World Champion and 2nd place in Elder Statesman was .15 second. I have no idea how either staged their guns but that difference could easily be made up with the difference between staging flat and across the board as in the picture. Randy 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hells Comin Posted March 4 Author Share Posted March 4 8 minutes ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said: I wasn’t there this year so I suppose I have no dog in this hunt but I’d still like to answer your question. The difference between World Champion and 2nd place in Elder Statesman was .15 second. I have no idea how either staged their guns but that difference could easily be made up with the difference between staging flat and across the board as in the picture. Randy In this specific case it wouldn't have made a difference because I staged my guns flat as instructed - regardless of how anyone else staged theirs. However here is another category that their was .02 second difference SO ? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Hells Comin said: In this specific case it wouldn't have made a difference because I staged my guns flat as instructed - regardless of how anyone else staged theirs. However here is another category that their was .02 second difference SO ? I wasn’t trying to imply that you or anyone else did anything wrong just that the .02 or .15 could be made up in the difference of staging. It could also be made up in blinking your eye. What I was trying to get across (and didn’t do it well) was that if everyone doesn’t get the same stage instructions, it could potentially make the difference between winning and not. Sorry for my poor explanation. Randy Edited March 4 by Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawnee Hills Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 46 minutes ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said: People traveled half way around the world to shoot the biggest highest level championship there is. It is not a triviality and deserves more attention than that. 21 minutes ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said: I wasn’t there this year so I suppose I have no dog in this hunt but I’d still like to answer your question. The difference between World Champion and 2nd place in Elder Statesman was .15 second. I have no idea how either staged their guns but that difference could easily be made up with the difference between staging flat and across the board as in the picture. Randy Fair points for sure. Unfortunately, it appears like some PMs didn’t take the match that seriously. How is this to be avoided in the future? Match directors can only give so much ‘direction’ and cannot police everyone at all times. I wasn’t there and don’t have a dog in this hunt either. Just trying to learn and understand how things like this happen and how it would/should be corrected. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts