Gun breakdown or malfunction on the line

[Quiet Burp]

How long has a shooter got on the line to try and fix a gun breakdown or malfunction on the line before the T.O calls enough?

[Matthew Duncan]

Clock is running.  As long as you want until the TO feels your holding up the posse too long.  

[Tyrel Cody]

As long as the shooter is being safe and keeping the gun pointed down range, then forever; though the TO may strongly suggest grounding the gun. 

[Hoss]

I once watched a guy remove side plates from a 73 to clear a jam. Was on stage 7 of 10 stage match. He really wanted clean match. His time was like 300 seconds. While he was safe with gun, it was too long. 
as I recall, shooter made it thru that stage, but wound up with a miss and a P on next stage. 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

40 minutes ago, Quiet Burp said:

How long has a shooter got on the line to try and fix a gun breakdown or malfunction on the line before the T.O calls enough?

 

Just remember that at some point, your delays on the timer will exceed any 'MISS' penalties that you would have accrued should you not

finish the stage.

 

..........Widder

 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

The REAL effective way to get a clean match is to maintain your guns with serious intent and knowledge, and load (or buy) top quality ammo.     No one should be holding up their posse tinkering with a firearm more than about twice as long as the total times most folks are shooting, if they want to stay on the good side of the rest of the posse.

 

Do the rules allow a lengthy on-the-line delay?   Yes.   But common courtesy does not.  Folks come to shoot, not so much to see someone repair a gun.

 

good luck, GJ

 

 

 

 

[Blackwater 53393]

On more than one occasion, I have disassembled a cap ‘n’ ball revolver to clear a cap jam. Twice, I managed to clean that stage and shoot a clean match. On one of those occasions, it was the very last gun on the last stage!!

 

And YESSS!  It’s worth it!! 
 

(sorry GJ, but I paid my entry fee, same as everyone else…)

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

As long as this...
 

 

 

I had decided to give up, and at the same time, I was told to give up.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Quote

but I paid my entry fee, same as everyone else

 

Yes you did.   And, consider that on a posse of 15 folks, 14 are spending their time watching (waiting for) one person to repair something.   Remember your manners, and put others on as important a basis as your own interests.    If they had to pick up 14 times as much brass for you as for other shooters throwing down only 10+4,  because you shot a gatling gun, they would not really want to do that, either.

 

We have already covered that the RULES allow repair on the line done safely, if done with tools you brought with you.  Now it's up to the shooter to execute their shooting well and gracefully.

 

good luck, GJ

[Flying W Ramrod]

1 hour ago, Quiet Burp said:

How long has a shooter got on the line to try and fix a gun breakdown or malfunction on the line before the T.O calls enough?

Doesn't matter. Maximum time for any stage is 5 seconds per target and 30 seconds.

SHB Page 24, Scoring, 2nd paragraph.

If it takes them 300 seconds to shoot the stage, the maximum time scored is 150 seconds, on a 10-10-4+ stage.

[Quiet Burp]

Appreciate the replies.

[Dusty Devil Dale]

Courtesy to others is important.  Here's a story from my other favorite sport.

 

I was on long-range tuna trip out of San Diego a few years ago.  We were enroute to Clipperton Island, 1050 nautical miles off of southern Mexico's Pacific Coast -- the 3-week trip of a lifetime @ $8,000+ per person. 

 

We stopped the second night at Alijos Rocks to fish big yellowtail, wahoo, and to gather needed bait. 

 

In the middle of the night, I sent a 6 pound live squid down 300+ feet and hooked up what acted like a huge swordfish.  4 hours later, daylight broke.  I had worn myself down, but despite continued hard short stroking, I could only gain about a quarter of the line back after the initial run.   The skipper thought it was probably a really big sword.  It did not run like a shark.  It just sulked and swam in wide, deep circles.  The rod was solidly pinned to the rail for hours. 

 

An hour after sunrise, the fish was still very strong.  I was not.  The other fishermen gave much encouragement and seemed  thrilled at the prosect of seeing a probable 600# sword.  Several took a turn relieving me.  Everyone seemed patient, but  I could feel some anxiety building as time passed.  The skipper was right beside me and I thought I also sensed concern on his part.  

 

The entire boat relaxed when I quietly pulled out my cutters and severed the 120# line.  I never have  looked back --absolutely the right thing to do.  We got underway and had a great trip with some 200# plus Clipperton yellowfin.  The swordfish of a lifetime is still out there for a future trip.  I never saw it.  

 

Courtesy to others is important !

Edited February 27 by Dusty Devil Dale

[Buckshot Bear]

54 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Courtesy to others is important.  Here's a story from my other favorite sport.

 

I was on long-range tuna trip out of San Diego a few years ago.  We were enroute to Clipperton Island, 1050 nautical miles off of southern Mexico's Pacific Coast -- the 3-week trip of a lifetime @ $8,000+ per person. 

 

We stopped the second night at Alijos Rocks to fish big yellowtail, wahoo, and to gather needed bait. 

 

In the middle of the night, I sent a 6 pound live squid down 300+ feet and hooked up what acted like a huge swordfish.  4 hours later, daylight broke.  I had worn myself down, but despite continued hard short stroking, I could only gain about a quarter of the line back after the initial run.   The skipper thought it was probably a really big sword.  It did not run like a shark.  It just sulked and swam in wide, deep circles.  The rod was solidly pinned to the rail for hours. 

 

An hour after sunrise, the fish was still very strong.  I was not.  The other fishermen gave much encouragement and seemed  thrilled at the prosect of seeing a probable 600# sword.  Several took a turn relieving me.  Everyone seemed patient, but  I could feel some anxiety building as time passed.  The skipper was right beside me and I thought I also sensed concern on his part.  

 

The entire boat relaxed when I quietly pulled out my cutters and severed the 120# line.  I never have  looked back --absolutely the right thing to do.  We got underway and had a great trip with some 200# plus Clipperton yellowfin.  The swordfish of a lifetime is still out there for a future trip.  I never saw it.  

 

Courtesy to others is important !

 

 

What do you reckon the chances were of that fish surviving?

[Dusty Devil Dale]

28 minutes ago, Buckshot Bear said:

 

 

What do you reckon the chances were of that fish surviving?

As strong as it appeared, probably 80% or better.  Swordfish don't really fight and generate a lot of lactic acid like tuna, wahoo, or marlin do.  Swords just sulk, spread their long pectoral fins, and circle deep, with their weight being like a very heavy anchor. 

 

The hook should corrode or fall out within a week or so, so the drag of line would have little effect -- and even if it took longer, the drag of just a hundred or so feet of line is less than  significant to a fish of that size.   

I do regret leaving the line floating free in the ocean though, tangling up anything from whales to sea birds.  Fortunately 120 pound line is not very prone to tangling.  

 

 

[Buckshot Bear]

8 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

As strong as it appeared, probably 80% or better.  Swordfish don't really fight and generate a lot of lactic acid like tuna, wahoo, or marlin do.  Swords just sulk, spread their long pectoral fins, and circle deep, with their weight being like a very heavy anchor. 

 

The hook should corrode or fall out within a week or so, so the drag of line would have little effect -- and even if it took longer, the drag of just a hundred or so feet of line is less than  significant to a fish of that size.   

I do regret leaving the line floating free in the ocean though, tangling up anything from whales to sea birds.  Fortunately 120 pound line is not very prone to tangling.  

 

 

 

Its something that's always worried me, I can fish the salt from my front lawn and have fished hard all my life. The last 10 years I have taken all the barbs off my hooks and everything is catch and release. 

[Dusty Devil Dale]

1 minute ago, Buckshot Bear said:

 

Its something that's always worried me, I can fish the salt from my front lawn and have fished hard all my life. The last 10 years I have taken all the barbs off my hooks and everything is catch and release. 

That is the sustained yield way to do it if you are mainly just sport fishing.

The only species I kill these days are yellowfin that are fast maturing and heavily commercially harvested, or Wahoo, Dorado or yellowtail that exist mostly ocean- or worldwide in astronomical numbers and receive comparatively light harvest pressure.   

 

I long ago stopped fishing the grouper family, because of the barotrauma- swim bladder issues.  Also, a 120- pound Black Sea Bass can be 70 or 80 years old, and I have a definite  reverence for that.   

[Widder, SASS #59054]

5 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

As long as this...
 

 

 

I had decided to give up, and at the same time, I was told to give up.

 

Looks like the shooter CLOSED his loaded SG, and then moved BOTH feet.   OUCH!

 

..........Widder

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

11 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Looks like the shooter CLOSED his loaded SG, and then moved BOTH feet.   OUCH!

 

NO CALL.

Quote

Note: Shuffling the feet to maintain balance or adjust the shooting stance is allowed as long as the shooter does not actually change location.

SHB p.11

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Thanks PWB.   I had it wrong!

 

..........Widder

 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

In the above video, on that particular day, I had decided to shoot "old" guns.  

 

The Parker 20 gauge was made in 1921

The Colt Bisleys were made in 1901 and 1904, and the Colt Lightning was made in 1897.

All are .32-20's

I had a clean match going until that stage, and really wanted to save it.   For someone like me, who can be timed with a sundial (As has been accused) shooting a clean match is always the number one goal.   I was rather miffed at that one pesky round that would not go bang, which is why I really tried to save it.  Oh well.    

If I recall correctly there was  dimple in the primer.   I don't know why it didn't go off.  Later, between stages, I loaded it into the rifle and it did indeed go bang.   Same primer as all the other rounds.   Musta been unusually hard for reasons unknown.   I will always remain a mystery.

 

Anyway, I had FUN that day, and that's always the most important thing.  

And, 100 second plus stages are actually not something I worry about.   I figure if I can do it in 45 seconds, I have done very well for me.   

 

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

14 hours ago, Hoss said:

I once watched a guy remove side plates from a 73 to clear a jam. Was on stage 7 of 10 stage match. He really wanted clean match. His time was like 300 seconds. While he was safe with gun, it was too long. 
as I recall, shooter made it thru that stage, but wound up with a miss and a P on next stage. 

This shooter probably needs to buy a screw knife and learn how to use it quickly.

[Eyesa Horg]

16 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

In the above video, on that particular day, I had decided to shoot "old" guns.  

 

The Parker 20 gauge was made in 1921

The Colt Bisleys were made in 1901 and 1904, and the Colt Lightning was made in 1897.

All are .32-20's

I had a clean match going until that stage, and really wanted to save it.   For someone like me, who can be timed with a sundial (As has been accused) shooting a clean match is always the number one goal.   I was rather miffed at that one pesky round that would not go bang, which is why I really tried to save it.  Oh well.    

If I recall correctly there was  dimple in the primer.   I don't know why it didn't go off.  Later, between stages, I loaded it into the rifle and it did indeed go bang.   Same primer as all the other rounds.   Musta been unusually hard for reasons unknown.   I will always remain a mystery.

 

Anyway, I had FUN that day, and that's always the most important thing.  

And, 100 second plus stages are actually not something I worry about.   I figure if I can do it in 45 seconds, I have done very well for me.   

 

Some primers just like to break your stones!! Had it happen twice in my Rugers! Go around twice no joy, dead gun. I always carry my pistols on the same side so I know for sure which gave an issue if one happens. Get home, put the FTF cartridge in the same gun and bang! Part of the fun I guess.

[Fretless]

2 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

In the above video, on that particular day, I had decided to shoot "old" guns.  

 

The Parker 20 gauge was made in 1921

The Colt Bisleys were made in 1901 and 1904, and the Colt Lightning was made in 1897.

All are .32-20's

I had a clean match going until that stage, and really wanted to save it.   For someone like me, who can be timed with a sundial (As has been accused) shooting a clean match is always the number one goal.   I was rather miffed at that one pesky round that would not go bang, which is why I really tried to save it.  Oh well.    

If I recall correctly there was  dimple in the primer.   I don't know why it didn't go off.  Later, between stages, I loaded it into the rifle and it did indeed go bang.   Same primer as all the other rounds.   Musta been unusually hard for reasons unknown.   I will always remain a mystery.

 

Anyway, I had FUN that day, and that's always the most important thing.  

And, 100 second plus stages are actually not something I worry about.   I figure if I can do it in 45 seconds, I have done very well for me.   

 

I can't help but ask... Why didn't you reload the second pistol to save the clean stage?

[Tennessee williams]

I brought up a very unpopular but logical question a while back:

 

  SHOULD a shooter who takes more than the MAXIMUM scorable time for a stage still be counted as clean as long as no miss or other penalty? (Currently there is nothing I know of rule-wise that says they are not)

  Here is the relevance to the original post: Shooters "generally" participate in our sport/game for one of 3 reasons beside the commeraderie. Speed, dress authenticity, or to shoot clean. The question in my mind is this. Is it fair to the other shooters who shoot to be clean who stay within the stage's maximum allowed score time for someone to potentially (not likely)take 5-10 minutes to repair their firearm?

  Before you answer, consider this. The maximum time our pocket pro timers will "time" is 3minutes and 20seconds. Now, we all know what general practice is when we don't have a recordable time such as the last shot in the stage not being recorded. The shooter must reshoot to get a recordable time. I'm not saying the following is the norm but it IS possible. The shooter striving for clean gets a P or miss and then their gun locks up and they take 7 minutes to "fix" it, then finish the stage. They don't have a recordable time because the timer only records 3mins 20sec before starting over. How many times has the timer wrapped over? See where I'm going with this? 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

AHHHH, the ole 'make a gun jam' and take more than 3:20 to clear, erase all Misses and any 'P' acquired and get

a reshoot BECAUSE......... the shooter has to have a legitimate RECORDED time.

 

That is an interesting thought, TW.

 

I once shot with a person who always seem to have a SG problem but only after they had a miss or a 'P' in the stage.

I couldn't prove it, but I suspected the shooter carried some oversized SG hulls (non-resized brass) in his belt and

would insert them into his chambers of the SxS, close the action hard to JAM those brass bases in tight, and then

requested a reshoot because of equipment malfunction.

At the time, our club was offering reshoots for gun or ammo malfunctions.

 

I couldn't prove that shooter was manipulating his gun in such a manner, but it did seem that when a Miss or 'P' 

occurred during the pistol or rifle run, he always seem to have a SG lockup.

 

Soooooooo, what do we do when there isn't a legitimate recorded time?    I personally think a shooter has all the right

to achieve his/her clean match, regardless of excessive time.   I love to compete....... but our game/sport isn't all about

the competition.

 

Just my .02

 

..........Widder

[Flying W Ramrod]

22 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

AHHHH, the ole 'make a gun jam' and take more than 3:20 to clear, erase all Misses and any 'P' acquired and get

a reshoot BECAUSE......... the shooter has to have a legitimate RECORDED time.

 

That is an interesting thought, TW.

 

I once shot with a person who always seem to have a SG problem but only after they had a miss or a 'P' in the stage.

I couldn't prove it, but I suspected the shooter carried some oversized SG hulls (non-resized brass) in his belt and

would insert them into his chambers of the SxS, close the action hard to JAM those brass bases in tight, and then

requested a reshoot because of equipment malfunction.

At the time, our club was offering reshoots for gun or ammo malfunctions.

 

I couldn't prove that shooter was manipulating his gun in such a manner, but it did seem that when a Miss or 'P' 

occurred during the pistol or rifle run, he always seem to have a SG lockup.

 

Soooooooo, what do we do when there isn't a legitimate recorded time?    I personally think a shooter has all the right

to achieve his/her clean match, regardless of excessive time.   I love to compete....... but our game/sport isn't all about

the competition.

 

Just my .02

 

..........Widder

If you have a good RO, they'll keep track of how many times the timer has gone past 3:20 and be able to do the math.

Timer equipment restrictions are not the fault of the shooter.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

6 hours ago, Fretless said:

I can't help but ask... Why didn't you reload the second pistol to save the clean stage?

Cuz I didn't think of that.

Can you even do that?

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

We have a limited amount of day and I have a limited amount of patience.

 

A slow shooter is one thing - but fiddle farting with gun repair/ ammo malfunction or equipment breakage is another.

 

If you are not making progress towards stage completion - once you have definitely exceeded the "maximum" time of a stage; I will gently direct you to complete what you are doing and move to the unloading table.

 

I am very sorry; but your desire to "complete" the stage or "be clean" does not over ride the necessity to best serve the other 20 shooters on the posse.

 

AND in most cases (at least at large matches) there is a expected time frame to get a posse thru the stage (generally TWO minutes BEEP to BEEP) - I am NOT going to force the other shooters to rush their enjoyment or preparation OR cause a posse backup because of one shooters equipment/ firearm/ ammo malfunction.

 

Edited February 28 by Creeker, SASS #43022

[Tennessee williams]

1 hour ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

If you have a good RO, they'll keep track of how many times the timer has gone past 3:20 and be able to do the math.

Timer equipment restrictions are not the fault of the shooter.

But, ultimately it IS the fault of the shooter their gun broke or their ammo malfunctioned. The typical stage is 10-10-4. The time limit(Synonymous with maximum stage time) for that stage is 150 seconds. That's 2minutes and 30 seconds, almost a full minute under the limit of our timers. As a TO, I have a LOT more important stuff to do other than get my pocket watch out and keep track of the timer rolling over especially with a shooter working on a live firearm. That is nowhere in the RO1,2, or 3 manual. 

[Fretless]

1 hour ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

Cuz I didn't think of that.

Can you even do that?

Yes.  You most certainly can. 

 

From the Reload Choices document:

"It is also acceptable for a shooter to replace defective (bad primer?) rounds in a cartridge revolver in order to successfully complete a stage. Even if a revolver has a “squib” (effectively putting that firearm out of commission), the shooter MAY reload the functioning revolver to finish the shooting string after making the malfunctioning firearm safe."

Edited February 28 by Fretless

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

 

15 hours ago, Fretless said:

Yes.  You most certainly can. 

 

From the Reload Choices document:

"It is also acceptable for a shooter to replace defective (bad primer?) rounds in a cartridge revolver in order to successfully complete a stage. Even if a revolver has a “squib” (effectively putting that firearm out of commission), the shooter MAY reload the functioning revolver to finish the shooting string after making the malfunctioning firearm safe."

 

Thanks, Fretless.

I'll remember this if it even happens again.

[The Surgeon]

16 hours ago, Fretless said:

Yes.  You most certainly can. 

 

From the Reload Choices document:

"It is also acceptable for a shooter to replace defective (bad primer?) rounds in a cartridge revolver in order to successfully complete a stage. Even if a revolver has a “squib” (effectively putting that firearm out of commission), the shooter MAY reload the functioning revolver to finish the shooting string after making the malfunctioning firearm safe."

Do you have to remove the bad round out of the gun first or can you just use the 6th chamber with the bad round still in the gun? Or do you use the good revolver and load the 6th chamber in that one?

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

I get the whole "clean match" thing, especially if you aren't competing for top honors, but have some courtesy and know when to pack it in.

So ya bought a P or a miss, it ain't the end of the world and you weren't getting the Cadillac anyway. Folks will appreciate it.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

1 hour ago, The Surgeon said:

Do you have to remove the bad round out of the gun first

NO

or

can you just use the 6th chamber with the bad round still in the gun?

YES

Or

do you use the good revolver and load the 6th chamber in that one?

If you want to.

 

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

100% agree with Creeker on this one.