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For 5 minutes - YOU are King/ Queen of SASS


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2 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

CRAP!!!!

 

I'm in the "Saloon"???? How do I get the hell outta here?!

 

:unsure:

Oh crap! It's actually the wire. Now I'm lost:lol: Glad to have ya back Pard!

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Empty round/hull on the carrier/in the chamber of an open long gun.  I know I'm going to get some push back because "you can never be too safe" but in my ever so humble opinion an open long gun is perfectly safe.  If I'm done shooting my rifle or shotgun and open them up they can't fire.  For that reason I'd eliminate the penalty for an empty being left in/on one. You want me to remove it before going to the unloading table?  Sure, that's fine.  But don't assess a penalty. 

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Move the minimum power factor to 110 (roughly a standard factory .38spl). 
 

Classic Cowboy will require black powder, and as such will absorb all FC categories, and allow any shooting style as is done with B Western. 
 

only 3 age divisions.  

 

1- Under 16

2 - Open

3 - Over 65

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2 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Why?

 

What does this bring to the game?

 

Phantom

Why shouldn’t it?

 

knock down targets only call to be set so a factory 38 will make them fall if hit squarely. The ammunition requirement should match. 
 

No reason for our sport to run PF less than half of virtually every other shooting sport other than those using 22 rimfire. 
 

I’d actually prefer to see it pushed up to match historically accurate loads across the board. If that were done then CC due to its caliber limit would require around 160 or better. 
 

Face it a factory .38 has minimal recoil especially in the size of pistols we are using. 

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4 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Here's an idea.

 

Read the handbooks...go to matches.

 

You'll figure it out.

 

Phantom

Depends on how good my MD and TOs are. For all I know not saying the starting line right earns me a P!

 

The RO classes should help keep CAS rules consistent across the world. 

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28 minutes ago, Buckshot Sheridan said:

Why shouldn’t it?

Because we have a bunch of older folks along with a relatively high percentage of women shooters...and our firearms do not require energy to operate a slide.

28 minutes ago, Buckshot Sheridan said:

 

knock down targets only call to be set so a factory 38 will make them fall if hit squarely. The ammunition requirement should match.

If you are a MD and you set your Pistol KD's to only go down with a "Factory" 38, you'll have an unsuccessful match.

 

28 minutes ago, Buckshot Sheridan said:

 
 

No reason for our sport to run PF less than half of virtually every other shooting sport other than those using 22 rimfire.

Half ???  You have data on that? Oh, and felt recoil is different in a revolver than a SA. Since we dress differently, shall we change the costume requirements? There are many things different in CAS over...half...the other sports. Would be rather silly to structure our game in the same way as the other...half...

28 minutes ago, Buckshot Sheridan said:

I’d actually prefer to see it pushed up to match historically accurate loads across the board. If that were done then CC due to its caliber limit would require around 160 or better.

Just and FYI, we are not an historically accurate game...hope you understood this before you joined. Heavy PF's beat the crap outta not-so-great steel...which for many small clubs, crappy steel is all they can afford...are you willing to start donating a bunch of sheet steel????

28 minutes ago, Buckshot Sheridan said:

Face it a factory .38 has minimal recoil especially in the size of pistols we are using. 

 

Face it...???? I never mentioned recoil as being a reason to not raise the PF. 

 

So glad that...at least in my experiences...that you are in the minority.

 

Phantom

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7 minutes ago, Idaho Gunslinger said:

Depends on how good my MD and TOs are. For all I know not saying the starting line right earns me a P!

 

The RO classes should help keep CAS rules consistent across the world. 

The HANDBOOK is what keeps things consistent across the "world". RO courses are full of inconsistencies...believe it or not.

 

Phantom

 

PS: If you read the Handbook you would have known to ask about this silly Startling Line "rule". Trust me, there's about a 1% chance that this situation would have been brought up in an RO class since it so silly.

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On the subject of RO classes, I’m not a huge fan of MOST. They are only as good as the teacher! I’ve been to several, with several different instructors. Only 2 of them were “beneficial”.  Many devolve into “once when I was at EOT/Winter Range/LandRun/xx Regional (take your pick) a well know shooter did/said…it turns into more of a brag session on matches the instructor had been to.  One was so blatantly wrong that I think everyone in the class that had been shooting for any length of time knew it. Unfortunately there were a couple of new shooters there who probably did not know better. 
that being said, I do appreciate them gaining their time to try to pass on info. They just need to stay with the book and not be so anecdotal. 
 

I try to read the rule book regularly. And I follow the WTC threads. Usually if I study the question, use the book to read the rule as written (not what I wish it said!) I come to the proper conclusion. 

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15 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Because we have a bunch of older folks along with a relatively high percentage of women shooters...and our firearms do not require energy to operate a slide.

If you are a MD and you set your Pistol KD's to only go down with a "Factory" 38, you'll have an unsuccessful match.

 

Half ???  You have data on that? Oh, and felt recoil is different in a revolver than a SA. Since we dress differently, shall we change the costume requirements? There are many things different in CAS over...half...the other sports. Would be rather silly to structure our game in the same way as the other...half...

Just and FYI, we are not an historically accurate game...hope you understood this before you joined. Heavy PF's beat the crap outta not-so-great steel...which for many small clubs, crappy steel is all they can afford...are you willing to start donating a bunch of sheet steel????

Face it...???? I never mentioned recoil as being a reason to not raise the PF. 

 

So glad that...at least in my experiences...that you are in the minority.

 

Phantom

Are you saying a factory 38 is too much gun for a woman to shoot?

 

I didn’t say half of other shooting sports have higher power factors. I said our power factor is currently less than half of virtually every other shooting sport. That can be seen with simple math. 

 

Club can’t afford reasonable steel? Then consider using cardboard targets.  Or final a way to make it happen, it costs $ to play. 
 

If the sport becomes physically too much for you, then maybe it’s time to hang it up, or do you suggest we create another category using finger pistols, and you call “Bang…Ding!!”
 

 

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1 minute ago, Buckshot Sheridan said:

Are you saying a factory 38 is too much gun for a woman to shoot?

Not saying that...but nice try. Heavy recoil can wear on a person. Particularly older folks.

1 minute ago, Buckshot Sheridan said:

 

I didn’t say half of other shooting sports have higher power factors. I said our power factor is currently less than half of virtually every other shooting sport. That can be seen with simple math. 

Misunderstood your comment. That said, most folks are not at 90 PF...USPSA is 125 Minor and 165 Major. So...do the math.

1 minute ago, Buckshot Sheridan said:

 

Club can’t afford reasonable steel? Then consider using cardboard targets.  Or final a way to make it happen, it costs $ to play. 

So to make your little world wonderful, you're suggesting going to paper targets...or find money for better steel. All because you and a small minority want a higher PF...to shoot steel...got it.

1 minute ago, Buckshot Sheridan said:

If the sport becomes physically too much for you, then maybe it’s time to hang it up, or do you suggest we create another category using finger pistols, and you call “Bang…Ding!!”

Ha...okay...you don't know squat about me yet you make this comment...too funny! It's the old "if you don't think the way I think then you're just a "fill in the blank". Probably should get to know people before you start this line of reason.

 

Phantom

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49 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

The HANDBOOK is what keeps things consistent across the "world". RO courses are full of inconsistencies...believe it or not.

 

Phantom

 

PS: If you read the Handbook you would have known to ask about this silly Startling Line "rule". Trust me, there's about a 1% chance that this situation would have been brought up in an RO class since it so silly.

That's fair. I guess I just expect the RO classes to teach to the Handbook...

 

Hoping my class in December has a good instructor. 

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I have another to add to my neon follower plan.

 

ANYONE that goes on record as worrying about how our game is perceived by participants in other games.

 

Or demeans our participants by questioning their ability "to handle recoil".

 

These folks are automatically refunded the pro rated balance of their yearly SASS dues and sent a sign up link to the "Manly" shooting sport of their choice.

 

Or uses the term, "Historically accurate".

These folks also get a pro rated refund and a sign up link to NCOWS or a re enactment group.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Idaho Gunslinger said:

That's fair. I guess I just expect the RO classes to teach to the Handbook...

 

Hoping my class in December has a good instructor. 

Unfortunately it's hit and miss...hope you have a good one too! But don't sell yourself short on understanding the handbook on your own...kinda...Trust but Verify philosophy when it comes to what you learn in a RO class. 

 

Phantom

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3 minutes ago, Idaho Gunslinger said:

That's fair. I guess I just expect the RO classes to teach to the Handbook...

 

Hoping my class in December has a good instructor. 

I wish you well - but people are people.

A fair percentage of TO's cannot read simple stage instructions word for word without interjecting their opinion or input. 

 

An RO class is just more opportunity to share their opinion instead of the written word.

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1 hour ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I wish you well - but people are people.

A fair percentage of TO's cannot read simple stage instructions word for word without interjecting their opinion or input. 

 

An RO class is just more opportunity to share their opinion instead of the written word.

I still need to call you one of these days to talk about match directing. Life's been crazy for me lately and my toddlers are the bulk of it...

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Well, I'm kind of new at this game, but it's probably my only chance to be King, so I'll play. 

 

I would make it so that the World Champion title would have to be won by shooting matches over the whole year.  With a World Finals shoot out at EOT or some other major match.  I think we could promote attendance at the affiliated clubs monthly matches in order to win points that counted to the World Finals.  Maybe divide the country into regions and then the regional champions (shooters with the most points) would be eligible to compete and win the World Final title at the final shootout.  Would need to work on the fine details, but I think it would help to increase participation and really make the World Champion title more prestigious.  

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9 hours ago, Buckshot Sheridan said:

Move the minimum power factor to 110 (roughly a standard factory .38spl). 
 

Classic Cowboy will require black powder, and as such will absorb all FC categories, and allow any shooting style as is done with B Western. 
 

only 3 age divisions.  

 

1- Under 16

2 - Open

3 - Over 65

Phantom asked a good question which hadn’t been answered. Why increase the PF? NOT how, but why? What is the benefit?

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6 hours ago, Wild Eagle said:

Well, I'm kind of new at this game, but it's probably my only chance to be King, so I'll play. 

 

I would make it so that the World Champion title would have to be won by shooting matches over the whole year.  With a World Finals shoot out at EOT or some other major match.  I think we could promote attendance at the affiliated clubs monthly matches in order to win points that counted to the World Finals.  Maybe divide the country into regions and then the regional champions (shooters with the most points) would be eligible to compete and win the World Final title at the final shootout.  Would need to work on the fine details, but I think it would help to increase participation and really make the World Champion title more prestigious.  

This is great in the whole "world championship" line of thought, but completely impractical. I still work full-time and lots of folks do (or go to school) and to be able to compete all over your area to earn points and then travel to a main championship to bring your accolades and compete is pretty close to impossible for all but a few of us. It was decided long ago NOT to have this type of system in place. The national and world championships are huge matches where folks travel to competing against "the best". Is this always exactly the case? Of course not, but it is what we have. It's an interesting idea but, I'm afraid, would never work... unless we start paying folks to travel (YIKES). My view.

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12 hours ago, Buckshot Sheridan said:

Move the minimum power factor to 110 (roughly a standard factory .38spl). 
 

Classic Cowboy will require black powder, and as such will absorb all FC categories, and allow any shooting style as is done with B Western. 
 

only 3 age divisions.  

 

1- Under 16

2 - Open

3 - Over 65


Not only no, but hell no to CC absorbing the FC categories. I’m fine with CC shooting black poweder, but I’m not wearing all the CC attire to be able to shoot FCGF. 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

I didn't take up my 5 minutes yet so how about letting .38's in Classic Cowboy?

 38s in Classic Cowboy? Already have them... the 38-40. ;)

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3 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Phantom asked a good question which hadn’t been answered. Why increase the PF? NOT how, but why? What is the benefit?

Does anyone ever check the PF on any ammo at a match? Of it does not get checked it kind of makes the whole PF argument void doesn't it?  

 

Similar to the BP Smoke factor

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1 minute ago, Major Art Tillery said:

Does anyone ever check the PF on any ammo at a match?

I have never seen that but I have seen (literally) some bullets moving at a velocity that would be an embarrassment for a baseball pitcher to throw that slow. :o

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On 10/24/2023 at 6:45 AM, Raton Rick said:

Encourage placement of targets at the recommended distance when it can be done. There have been some matches I have attended where the pistol targets are so close that I have thought about getting a pair of Buntline revolvers to save on ammunition as I could reach out and smack the pistol targets with the end of the barrel. Speed is important, but so is basic firearm fundamentals that includes the necessity of needing to aim.

How about a just minimum distance?  You can still have big and close, but if a bullet hitting the ground less than 10 feet from the firing line is a DQ then targets should never be less than 10 feet away.  

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29 minutes ago, Dantankerous said:

 38s in Classic Cowboy? Already have them... the 38-40. ;)

The 38-40 shoots a .401 caliber bullet. 

Edited by Cholla
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Just now, Cholla said:

The 38-40 shoots a .41 caliber bullet. 

 I know that. Sarcasm used here.  ;)

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If I were KING WIDDER for only 5 minutes, I would tell

everyone to stop taking your Saturday 'fun days' so serious

and enjoy the game where you are at.   And if some little

tweaking of targets is required, get involved in the club

work.  

 

If better steel is needed, then get involved in some

fund raiser activities and dish out some gold for those targets.

 

So, for today,  I DEGREE everyone to relax, enjoy, don't take

some of these things so serious.  Besides, if you don't win

the Cadillac this weekend, its o.k.......... they'll sell you one 

down at the dealership.  :D   That's where I got mine..... ;)

 

..........King Widder

 

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Addressing the PF comments...  I think the argument to increase to a 38sp factory load or at least enforce the current one is to eliminate/discourage the shooters with ammo that sounds like "pop tink."  Personally I think if you need to load that light for health or recoil sensitivity reasons that's fine, I understand you gain nothing by loading that light and I am happy to see you all still playing this game. 

 

However almost every posse I have ever shot on there is at least one shooter looking for a competitive edge by loading comically light.  I also have on several occasions heard the same shooters giving reloading advice to new shooters or even spectators to start at the suggested starting load and then dial the load back a 10th of a grain at a time until they get a squib, then increase the load a 10th of a grain and that is the "perfect" load.  I understand a light load in it of itself is not dangerous but to recommend and even encourage shooters to load well below the suggested starting load is an unsafe loading practice.  I also feel the "pop tink" shooters do detract from the game because it turns off many potential new shooters.  I know a number of guest at the range lose interest in SASS because they perceive a need to load light in order to be "competitive."   So back to my original argument, we should at least be enforcing the current minimum power factor. 

 

We also shouldn't discourage shooters that use ammo near the upper end of SASS legal ammo.  If a shooter running 44-40 pistol ammo at 900fps and the same load out of their rifle is pushing 1200 fps somehow represents a safety concern or unnecessary wear on the target then there is something wrong with the quality, angle or placement of the targets.  

Edited by July Smith
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1 hour ago, Fretless said:

How about a just minimum distance?  You can still have big and close, but if a bullet hitting the ground less than 10 feet from the firing line is a DQ then targets should never be less than 10 feet away.  

Not a good measure...the most violent splatter I've seen comes from other bays...much further than 10 feet. 

 

Splatter is a whole different discussion...trust me, it would either be 500 pages long or get shut down after a few comments. But...splatter always happens...on every shot. Controlling where it goes is the key and frankly, not that hard to control.

 

But, target distance is, in CAS context, irrelevant.

 

Phantom

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2 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

I didn't take up my 5 minutes yet so how about letting .38's in Classic Cowboy?

 

Only .38 Short Colt, .38 S&W, 38 Long Colt and .38-44.  (.38-40 is already okay)  Those are the only classic .38's.   I think...   But then again, by that logic, .32-20 should also be okay.  As should .32 S&W and .32 S&W Long and....

Ah...   The permutations are endless!  :)

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58 minutes ago, July Smith said:

Addressing the PF comments...  I think the argument to increase to a 38sp factory load or at least enforce the current one is to eliminate/discourage the shooters with ammo that sounds like "pop tink."  Personally I think if you need to load that light for health or recoil sensitivity reasons that's fine, I understand you gain nothing by loading that light and I am happy to see you all still playing this game. 

 

However almost every posse I have ever shot on there is at least one shooter looking for a competitive edge by loading comically light.  I also have on several occasions heard the same shooters giving reloading advice to new shooters or even spectators to start at the suggested starting load and then dial the load back a 10th of a grain at a time until they get a squib, then increase the load a 10th of a grain and that is the "perfect" load.  I understand a light load in it of itself is not dangerous but to recommend and even encourage shooters to load well below the suggested starting load is an unsafe loading practice.  I also feel the "pop tink" shooters do detract from the game because it turns off many potential new shooters.  I know a number of guest at the range lose interest in SASS because they perceive a need to load light in order to be "competitive."   So back to my original argument, we should at least be enforcing the current minimum power factor. 

 

We also shouldn't discourage shooters that use ammo near the upper end of SASS legal ammo.  If a shooter running 44-40 pistol ammo at 900fps and the same load out of their rifle is pushing 1200 fps somehow represents a safety concern or unnecessary wear on the target then there is something wrong with the quality, angle or placement of the targets.  

Oh my god...this is funny coming from a Texican Ranger member.

 

So...you want to protect against stoopid people learning from stoopid people. And you don't like the sound of the "pop tink" and how it turns off potential shooters...got proof of that? You sure it's not the bunch of old crusty fat shooters with long straggly beards and SG belts under their armpits that is turning off potential shooters????

 

I'm sorry, but I call BS. I've been shooting this game for a little while and have spoken with a LOT of new/potential shooters and ZERO have ever been turned off by someone at a match using light loads.

 

And we SHOULD discourage (not disparage), shooters from using heavy loads. Heavy loads, of course legal and I would never tell someone they need to reduce their loads if legal, DO damage targets and DO damage hearing particularly when inside a structure. So if these loads serve no useful purpose other than make the shooter feel some form of satisfaction, but do cause damage...why wouldn't you discourage the use of those loads?

 

Phantom

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I do 2 things in my 5-minute reign...

  1. Online/On-demand RO courses that have been vetted/approved for a unified explanation of the rules across SASS.  Along with this, have a SASS moderated 'rules' forum for clarification docs, etc.
  2. Elect myself King of Wild Bunch for 5 minutes, then allow any length barrel 1911's.

Totes

 

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