Ruger Marlin rifle

[Rye Miles #13621]

https://1895gunner.com/news/10-06-21.html?fbclid=IwAR1OQS7gdHmsxc16lMvc2HVTg8kL_xgpuKLQCVLPFelAhLLMaoyE6bmhXBI

 

[Long Hunter SASS #20389L]

Hmmm, 1894's in .357 and 44 Magnum. Too bad no 45 Colt. 

[Rye Miles #13621]

40 minutes ago, Long Hunter SASS #20389L said:

Hmmm, 1894's in .357 and 44 Magnum. Too bad no 45 Colt. 

That is odd 

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

Can't wait too handle one .

I'm wondering if it's going to be stamped Marlin by Ruger or Just Ruger with No Marlin on it ? 

[Imis Twohofon,SASS # 46646]

Yea

 

Imis

[Kid Rich]

Marlin.

kR

[The Aggie Rifleman, SASS#55213]

Looks interesting.  The initial gun makes sense but the follow ons lacking popular calibers such as 45LC is a strange one. 

 

I hope the " extremely good accuracy that they are use to producing from their other centerfire rifles in the Ruger line" rifled barrels they're going to use are not Mini-14 accurate.

 

 

 

[evil dogooder]

11 hours ago, Long Hunter SASS #20389L said:

Hmmm, 1894's in .357 and 44 Magnum. Too bad no 45 Colt. 

My rep says they will be coming.  Right now they are making what sells best

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

42 minutes ago, The Aggie Rifleman, SASS#55213 said:

Looks interesting.  The initial gun makes sense but the follow ons lacking popular calibers such as 45LC is a strange one. 

 

I hope the " extremely good accuracy that they are use to producing from their other centerfire rifles in the Ruger line" rifled barrels they're going to use are not Mini-14 accurate.

 

 

 

Accuracy is fine with a Mini-14: https://www.pewpewtactical.com/mini-14-review/

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

If you asked them, I bet they'd tell you that CAS is a small fraction of their rifle sales and cowboy calibers are a very small consideration.

Follow the $$

["Big Boston"]

The "Marlin Rifling" was the reason i sold my 1894 in 44 Mag/Spl. The shallow rifling and slow twist rate were not something I could live with. 

 

Companies fail when they do not adapt to market demands and trends. You have to admire Rugers approach, researching which products sold the best and made the most profit. And as that core product line sells well and is profitable, you can expand and meet the needs of the niche demands. 

 

Ruger has a history of making runs of odd combinations, consider the Lipsey's Specials, bulk, prepaid production runs of somewhat eclectic products. 

 

My dream rifle would be a short stroke 1894 Ruger-Marlin in 38 Long Colt. A 16" SRC would be perfect. But, I'll probably line up and buy their 357 1894 when the product hits the shelves in Canada. 

 

 

[evil dogooder]

45 minutes ago, "Big Boston" said:

The "Marlin Rifling" was the reason i sold my 1894 in 44 Mag/Spl. The shallow rifling and slow twist rate were not something I could live with. 

 

Companies fail when they do not adapt to market demands and trends. You have to admire Rugers approach, researching which products sold the best and made the most profit. And as that core product line sells well and is profitable, you can expand and meet the needs of the niche demands. 

 

Ruger has a history of making runs of odd combinations, consider the Lipsey's Specials, bulk, prepaid production runs of somewhat eclectic products. 

 

My dream rifle would be a short stroke 1894 Ruger-Marlin in 38 Long Colt. A 16" SRC would be perfect. But, I'll probably line up and buy their 357 1894 when the product hits the shelves in Canada. 

 

 

Depend on if they have tooling. Between 250 and 500. Prepaid orders and they will make it. 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

3 hours ago, The Aggie Rifleman, SASS#55213 said:

use are not Mini-14 accurate.

Old news...the accuracy on newer Mini-14 is just fine.

 

 

[Hashknife Cowboy]

I'm sure it will be a fine rifle, but I don't need another Guide Gun.  I can only hope for a 336 Texan in .35 Remington......It is a dream. 

[Roscoe Regulator]

Whatever they offer in a Marlin type action, I hope they stone the knife edges. I have had to do that myself of a JM and a Remlin. The latest was a knife edge on the ejector shroud and other spots of a Pietta GW II. Nice fondle-friendly gun now (and no Band-Aids in my pocket).

[bgavin]

4 hours ago, "Big Boston" said:

The "Marlin Rifling" was the reason i sold my 1894 in 44 Mag/Spl. The shallow rifling and slow twist rate were not something I could live with.

I have the Uberti 1873, with a 1:20 twist rate.
This twist over-spins the bullets I favor, yielding a Miller Stability above 5.5 even with heavy 240 gr bullets.
It's worse with lighter bullets.

 

The Marlin 44 mag 1:38 has the M.S. at 1.94 +/- for 180 grain XTP which is right in the sweet spot of 1.50 to 2.0
I have an interest in this one if it has the octagonal barrel, and especially interested if they solved the soft carrier / marlin jam thing.
I'm reluctant to shoot full house 44 mags in the 1873.

[Charlie Harley, #14153]

19 hours ago, Long Hunter SASS #20389L said:

Hmmm, 1894's in .357 and 44 Magnum. Too bad no 45 Colt. 

Outside the Cowboy community, the 45 Colt just isn’t that popular. It’s all about the economics. 

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

6 hours ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

If you asked them, I bet they'd tell you that CAS is a small fraction of their rifle sales and cowboy calibers are a very small consideration.

Follow the $$

 

Also shooters who use Marlins are a small percentage vs 1873-1866 shooters. It could increase some if Ruger puts out a good product.

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

20 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

 

Also shooters who use Marlins are a small percentage vs 1873-1866 shooters. It could increase some if Ruger puts out a good product.

A good product priced hundreds of dollars less than a '73 would make a Ruger/Marlin a desirable entry-level rifle for new shooters.  When I started CAS Marlin rifles sold by Big-5 were an entry level rifle.

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

I sure hope the 44/40 is being considered.

[The Aggie Rifleman, SASS#55213]

1 hour ago, Charlie Harley, #14153 said:

Outside the Cowboy community, the 45 Colt just isn’t that popular. It’s all about the economics. 

45 Colt took off years ago with the general gun community when the 410/45LC revolvers came out (judge, governor, etc).  Those guns have kinda died out.  I would think 45Colt is more popular than 44Mag.  The suppressed tactical lever gun is popular (just not here) and there's a boatload of 45 silencers.

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

1 hour ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

A good product priced hundreds of dollars less than a '73 would make a Ruger/Marlin a desirable entry-level rifle for new shooters.  When I started CAS Marlin rifles sold by Big-5 were an entry level rifle.

 

There were more Marlins around when I started but then the 73s with short strokes took off. Then when Remington bought Marlin their popularity decreased more. It remains to be seen what prices, different models and quality Ruger will have. If things go right I'd think Marlins could gain in popularity, but how much who knows.

[Charlie Harley, #14153]

13 hours ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

 

There were more Marlins around when I started but then the 73s with short strokes took off. Then when Remington bought Marlin their popularity decreased more. It remains to be seen what prices, different models and quality Ruger will have. If things go right I'd think Marlins could gain in popularity, but how much who knows.

Same with me. Marlins were most common, with the pre-safety models most desired. There were a smattering of 73s. Short strokes were still in their infancy. A different time for sure. 

 

I understand Ruger’s first choice being the 1895 in 45-70. It’s probably by far the most popular of their line. 

 

But it I gotta believe there’s a desire for a quality Marlin 1894 in 357 and 44 mag.  Not that I’m wishing for one cause I already have mine. 

 

Or or maybe a 39a.  But I have one of those too.  1950s vintage.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

I would imagine at some time that Ruger will build '94 (Marlin) rifles in 45 Colt caliber to compliment the .45 Colt caliber Vaquero. Ruger seems to like cowboy action shooting.

 

Let them get the bugs worked out with the other models first  

 

GG ~ 

[Rye Miles #13621]

I wonder if they'll make it with a wood stock when they come out with .357 and .44? That stock in the pic I posted doesn't look like it would be SASS legal.

 

 

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

Why not? It's wood; just laminated

[Trailrider #896]

I would hope that when they start making 444 Marlin's that they use a rifling twist fast enough to stabilize heavier bullets, at least 260 grains.  The originals used twists more suited to 240 gr .44 Magnum bullets.  As I have enough .45-70's which I will probably never shoot again...at least for hunting...I don't really care.  But it would be nice for those that like the .444.

[Rye Miles #13621]

21 hours ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

Why not? It's wood; just laminated

I don't know, I've never seen anyone with that kind of stock at a CAS shoot.

[Assassin]

1 hour ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

I don't know, I've never seen anyone with that kind of stock at a CAS shoot.

I've seen hydrographics on rifles, green shotgun stocks, ugly red painted 97's.

Im happy if people come out to shoot.

 

[Rye Miles #13621]

2 hours ago, Assassin said:

I've seen hydrographics on rifles, green shotgun stocks, ugly red painted 97's.

Im happy if people come out to shoot.

 

I have never seen a stock like the one pictured though.

[Assassin]

1 hour ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

I have never seen a stock like the one pictured though.

I find that laminated stock more appealing than lime green or camo.

["Big Boston"]

On 10/7/2021 at 1:37 PM, bgavin said:

I have the Uberti 1873, with a 1:20 twist rate.
This twist over-spins the bullets I favor, yielding a Miller Stability above 5.5 even with heavy 240 gr bullets.
It's worse with lighter bullets.

 

The Marlin 44 mag 1:38 has the M.S. at 1.94 +/- for 180 grain XTP which is right in the sweet spot of 1.50 to 2.0
I have an interest in this one if it has the octagonal barrel, and especially interested if they solved the soft carrier / marlin jam thing.
I'm reluctant to shoot full house 44 mags in the 1873.

 

Not my first step down this particular rabbit hole. I searched and researched this topic ad-nauseum. And at the end of it all, I've come to my own conclusions and opinions. Miller formula aside, I'd rather own a 1:20 twist 44 or 45 cal, rifle than one with a 1:36 twist. 

 

The original centerfire 44 cal rifle cartridge was the 44 WCF or 44-40. The twist rate on it was 1:36, the bore was .4225", +.001. Rifling consisted of six grooves, .003" deep, and .1327" wide. The propellant was black powder and the bullet was 200 gr and made of soft lead. I assume it worked, as the spec remains unchanged to this day. It is interesting to note that Uberti uses a completely different spec for their 44-40 barrels. According to the literature, the twist is 1:20, the bore in.4215 and the grooves are .429. My Uberti, 2018 production, has a bore closer to .417", and I shoot 200 gr bullets without any issues that I've noticed. However, my bullets aren't soft lead, they are sized .429 to .430 and have a BHN of app 14. The interesting thing is that I had an original 1892 in 44-40 that was absent of any rifling for the last 6 inches of the barrel, it shot a bit worse, but still decently. The conclusion I came to was that a 44-40 does require some rifling, and that rifling should twist a bit. I assume that the shallower the rifling, the slower the twist needs to be.

 

I was of the opinion that a 44 Mag rifle would not be hard to load for, especially if I didn't vary much from 44-40 specs. 

 

Interestingly, the 44 Mag pistol is an entirely different beast. Elmer Keith and the powers in charge at that time made the bore/groove 417/429, with a 1:20 twist, and the min. bore/groove area was .1405 SQ IN. It stabilizes bullets. The MS for a 240 gr 429421 is 4.3 and it will hit deer out to 600 yards. 

 

So along comes Marlin, and their rather feeble attempt to make this fine hangun cartridge into a rifle cartridge. I have no way of knowing the rational, I can only assume that they attempted to use the pistol specs and came up with a rifle that was not shootable.  Therefore; Marlin decided that their 44 Magnum rifle would have a bore/groove of 424/431 (Minimum), with a 1:38 twist, with 12 grooves 0.055" wide, and a Min bore/groove area of .1435 SQ IN. The Microgroove design didn't sell guns, so Marlin switched to 6 grooves, I'm assuming .110" wide. They were still only 0.0035" deep, but apparently that is deep enough to be called Ballard like rifling. The MS for that barrel would be 1.3 with a 429421 at 1600 fps. With a 200 gr Cowboy bullet it is 1.8 at a cowboy velocity of 1000 fps. 

 

Perhaps Miller may not have sold that rifle, but there was no way in Hades I was keeping that rifle. Perhaps if I were to buy a mold that would cast a 432 or 435 bullet it may have worked. I'd already thrown about 30# of lead and several kegs of powder at the project. And purchased a Weaver base, a hammer extension and a 10X target scope as my eyes would strain after firing up to 100 rounds a day. 

 

My sons Rossi '92 shoots whatever I load, 1:20 twist. My Uberti in 44-40 with a 44 mag pistol spec barrel is OK with my cowboy loads, and they worked in a Winchester Commemorative as well, yep, 44 mag pistol spec barrel. I also own a 45 Colt Uberti '73 with a deep groove fast twist barrel shoots just fine as well. 

 

I realize one Marlin in 44 Mag may not be a large enough sample size to be conclusive, but it's a large enough sample size for me to form an opinion. When Ruger bought Marlin I sent an email to them, pleading with them not to follow the folly of Remington. Remington chose to change nothing, except the initial quality control, and that era of Remington no longer exists. Please don't offer to send me a Marlin 1894 in 44 Mag to test, unless it's been fitted with a pistol spec barrel.

 

I have an open mind, (perhaps), and in all likelihood the generous groove diameter may have been the underlying fly in the ointment. I believe bullet fit may need to be optimum before twist rate can be evaluated. But I've not experienced any fast twist gremlins, and I've owned a few of those beasts. 

 

In closing I'll quote a muzzle loaders musings: Just going from personal experience, the round balls do poorly in fast twist barrels because the patch strips in the fast twist rifling and the ball doesn't get consistent spin shot to shot, and the stripped patch allows gas blowby. I've picked up shredded patches from 1:24 rifling with even light charges of powder, but my T/C Hawken with a charge of 70 grains and a tight patched ball and 1:48 twist doesn't do that and is pretty darned accurate. I don't think the fast twist is the problem; I think it's the inability to get a tight enough seal with the patched ball to prevent the patched ball from stripping in the rifling." 

 

If I still owned that Marlin 44 Mag, I think I'd fill the case full of BP, cover it with an card wad and chamber it. Then I'd take a patched ball and load it from the muzzle. If that would work I'd have to accept the twist rate as being OK. But I'll stand behind my first decision, to just sell the lemon.

 

BB

[bgavin]

Then you have it well thought out, for your needs.
I don't shoot BP, nor do I cast my own, nor do I muzzle load.

I was trying to understand your anathema toward a twist rate that is favorable with the weight and lengths used in 44 mag.
Thanks for your excellent, and well state explanation.

[Waxahachie Kid #17017 L]

Is the picture, in the original post, at the top of this thread, what it is going to look like??? 

 

Or...is that an older picture of a previous manufacturer???