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WTC Musty or Mustnty


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  Shooter runs the stage correctly with no misses blisteringly fast worthy of praise from Widder hisownself. The TO is sure the last shot was not picked up by the timer. Must the shooter take a reshoot?

 

 Shooter runs the stage so poorly people think it's me shooting. A couple misses, a dangit, and 2 dagnabbits later the shooter manages to finish. The TO is sure the last shot is not picked up by the timer. Musty or mustnty take a reshoot?

 

I'd say mandatory reshoot on both scenarios. Otherwise the TO would be knowingly recording an incorrect time. 

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How is the TO sure?

I see so many TO's not watching the timer for the last couple shots to ensure the final shots are picked up.

 

But IF the TO is indeed watching the timer and they KNOW the time is not correct.

 

The shooter shoots again.  Period.

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Check the time for the recorded firing string.  How many shots were recorded?  No guessing.

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18 minutes ago, Frontier Lone Rider said:

Check the time for the recorded firing string.  How many shots were recorded?  No guessing.

Ok. You shooting very close to another bay and are picking up shots from there too.   Check my time by shots recorded?  Mmmm I’ll take that 10 second stage.  Not!

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23 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

Forgot to add the other references from ROI, pg 10

 

No reshoots/restarts will be given after the first shot goes downrange as determined by the TO and Match Director – EXCEPT for:

...unrecorded time

 

That has been added to the list of SHB edits for the next version.

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35 minutes ago, Frontier Lone Rider said:

Check the time for the recorded firing string.  How many shots were recorded?  No guessing.

Not an accurate way to determine. I've seen timers with different sensitivities record the beep as the first shot. I've seen fast shooters outrun a timer and not get all shots recorded. I've seen ejected brass hit the timer and record an extra shot. In all these cases I am positive correct number of shots were fired. The one and only way to remedy this is for the TO to do his job and watch the timers for the last shot/s. 

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When I’m the TO I look at timer to make sure it’s picked up the first shot(s) and ALWAYS look at timer before last shot, note it in my memory, cover the “microphone” so no errant shots are picked up.

 

Reshoots ALL AROUND, TW! :)
 

Big hugs!

Scarlett

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5 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

I just tuned in to this thread to make sure my name hadn't been besmirched!

:lol:

 

..........Widder

 

Well the Nanner Split Kid was  doing the talking and mentioned your name.  Doesn't that automatically mean your name was besmirched and that a tall tale was told! :lol:

 

Kajun

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47 minutes ago, Frontier Lone Rider said:

Check the time for the recorded firing string.  How many shots were recorded?  No guessing.

I am never going to pick up every shot.

My TO procedure goes something like this...

Stand strongside and rear of the shooter - stand there silently (unless needed) until the shooter gives me a line or acknowledges ready.

"Shooter is ready.  Shooter Standby." BEEP

Verify the timer is running and picks up the first shot.

THEN based on my knowledge of the shooter - give a little (or a lot of) space for the shooter to own the stage without me in their way or peripheral vision.

 

But after the beep - until we are closing on the completion of the stage - I am not worried about the timers distance from the firearm or the orientation of the timer for the purpose of picking up shots.

I'm wholly focused on the safety and procedures of the shooter and others around us.

When we progress into the final position or last gun - I will again glance at the timer to ensure it is continuing and make sure that I and the timer are in position to safely pickup the final shot without interfering with the shooter.

 

Check the timer on a run I was TO for and you may only see a few shots picked up.

But Ill be confident I picked up the one that matters.

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1 hour ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

Forgot to add the other references from ROI, pg 10

 

No reshoots/restarts will be given after the first shot goes downrange as determined by the TO and Match Director – EXCEPT for:

...unrecorded time

However, there is a Recorded time. It's just the TO THINKS it didn't pick up the last shot. What happened to If you Think it's a Miss, it's a Hit?  Same thing. BOD.

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27 minutes ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

However, there is a Recorded time. It's just the TO THINKS it didn't pick up the last shot. What happened to If you Think it's a Miss, it's a Hit?  Same thing. BOD.

No, I said the TO is SURE it didn't pick up the last shot.

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29 minutes ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

However, there is a Recorded time. It's just the TO THINKS it didn't pick up the last shot. What happened to If you Think it's a Miss, it's a Hit?  Same thing. BOD.

 

From the OP:

Quote

The TO is sure the last shot was not picked up by the timer.

 

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Posted (edited)

As a read the rules, a reshoot should/could be offered. I see that a reshoot can be requested. But I see nothing that requires a shooter to accept an offer to reshoot.

 

Benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter.

 

But keep in mind I'm not going to win the match, maybe the criteria is or should be different at certain level of competition (the hypothetical Cadillac is on the line).

Edited by John Kloehr
change " t a" to "at"
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48 minutes ago, Rafe Conager SASS #56958 said:

Not sure if it should be a mandatory reshoot, t.o. error, let's say shooter 1 has to reshoot and has a trainwreck they then are penalized for  circumstances beyond their control. 

 

Like TW says, the TO knows the last shot wasn't picked up.  If the shooter doesn't take the reshoot, his time is less than he actually shot...if he then wins by a fraction of a second, the other shooter(s) get robbed of a win because of something outside of their control.

 

I understand why the reshoot must be mandatory if the recorded time in known to be incorrect.

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38 minutes ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

However, there is a Recorded time. It's just the TO THINKS it didn't pick up the last shot. What happened to If you Think it's a Miss, it's a Hit?  Same thing. BOD.

I had a similar event happen at a Speed Rifle Side Match at a State Championship.  I had a good run (for me) and recorded a 0.00 time for 10 shots. The Shooters Handbook used to have something in it to the effect of if a time was recorded that seemed too fast the shooter would shoot the stage again and if it was within a certain percentage of the first run the first time would stand (PaleWolf excuse me if I butchered this up). I ran the stage again and recorded another 0.00 so if BOD goes to the shooter I should have won the side match!  :D

 

Randy

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9 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

As a read the rules, a reshoot should/could be offered. I see that a reshoot can be requested. But I see nothing that requires a shooter to accept an offer to reshoot.
There should be no need to codify mandating a reshoot under such circumstances.
If there is no "true" recorded time, the stage must be reshot in order to obtain one.

REF: RO3 p.22 COMMON SENSE

 

Benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter.

If there is no doubt, there is no benefit.

 

But keep in mind I'm not going to win the match, maybe the criteria is or should be different at certain level of competition (the hypothetical Cadillac is on the line).

That causes more problems than it solves.

 

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3 minutes ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

I had a similar event happen at a Speed Rifle Side Match at a State Championship.  I had a good run (for me) and recorded a 0.00 time for 10 shots. The Shooters Handbook used to have something in it to the effect of if a time was recorded that seemed too fast the shooter would shoot the stage again and if it was within a certain percentage of the first run the first time would stand (PaleWolf excuse me if I butchered this up). I ran the stage again and recorded another 0.00 so if BOD goes to the shooter I should have won the side match!  :D

 

Randy

 

Hey Randy.

At least thats better than having your SG checked for being a 'tricked' SG.

I've had mine checked for a trick trigger, set up to automatically fire when the action closed.

And I've been 'watched' by others that thought I preloaded my SG before starting a stage.

 

P.S. - I guess its possible to run a 0.00 if you're shooting a 'Soft Stroke' Henry .22   

:lol:

 

..........Widder

 

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Randy

 

Whoever was running that side match should not have allowed you to shoot your BB gun.

 

TN Williams you know you’re not suppose to eat nanner splits.  They do affect your thought process.

 

Whiskey

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I’m 6’ 5 1/2” tall.  I hold the timer over the shooter’s head, like a boom mike on a live TV program, to register the last shot of the stage.  Haven’t failed to record one in the last 23 years.
 

If somehow I KNOW the timer is wrong,  I would simply announce, “Timer failure.  Shooter must repeat the stage.”  And I would get another timer from the box of spares.  Who would argue with that?

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@PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L I have to agree with @John Kloehr. In the event that the TO knows that there is no true recorded time for the stage, there is no requirement that the shooter MUST reshoot it.

 

In the event that they choose not to reshoot the stage for actual score, the shooter would simply be scored with a DNF. In a total time match, a DNF would be scored the same as the stage DQ. Accumulate two DNFs in the same match (or one SDQ and one one DNF), you get a MDQ.

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11 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

...

In the event that they choose not to reshoot the stage for actual score, the shooter would simply be scored with a DNF. In a total time match, a DNF would be scored the same as the stage DQ. Accumulate two DNFs in the same match (or one SDQ and one one DNF), you get a MDQ.

 

Agree on that option.
Basically,
"Reshoot or else...", but the point was that the erroneous time does not stand.

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Main point. 

 

How is it that the TO is sure the last shot didn't get recorded?  That is not mentioned.  IMO, this ought to be established in order to justify requiring a reshoot.  If this can't be justified, then the time should stand.  TO must be absolutely sure that they didn't get the last shot, and be able to describe why.  Otherwise, benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter.

 

Frankly, there's not enough information presented here for me to say one way or the other.  How is the TO sure they didn't get the last shot?  If I were MD, I'd want to know before requiring the shooter reshoot the stage.

Edited by Doc Shapiro
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IMO...

The pertinent info presented by the OP is "The TO is sure the last shot was not picked up by the timer."
How the T/O came to that realization is irrelevant to making the correct call.

There is no doubt regarding that fact as stated in the OP.

Watched the timer and noticed that the last shot(s) failed to register or looked at it earlier in the string and noted no subsequent change....either way, the last shot of the stage was not on the clock.

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
edit txt
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This seems akin to TO interference if they are not doing their part. I would offer the reshoot, but not require it. Benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter. Unless it is something like a 22 it is a failure on the TO's part to capture the shot. Don't punish the shooter

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2 minutes ago, Artemus Von Schutze said:

This seems akin to TO interference if they are not doing their part. I would offer the reshoot, but not require it. Benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter. Unless it is something like a 22 it is a failure on the TO's part to capture the shot. Don't punish the shooter

 

According to the OP, the last shot was not picked up.

There is no doubt about that = no benefit.

See earlier posts regarding either taking the RESHOOT or receiving a DNF.

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8 minutes ago, Artemus Von Schutze said:

This seems akin to TO interference if they are not doing their part. I would offer the reshoot, but not require it. Benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter. Unless it is something like a 22 it is a failure on the TO's part to capture the shot. Don't punish the shooter

 

How many of the last rounds fired not being picked up by the timer are acceptable to still be recorded as the shooter's time? Only if the timer didn't pick up the last shot? What about if it didn't pick up the last two shots? Three? 

 

We have to remember that this is a timed competition. Every split second you are cutting off their time because of a timer issue is giving them an advantage.

 

Requiring the shooter to reshoot a stage because the timer did not record their total time for the stage is not punishing them.

 

By not ensuring that you record a correct time for the shooter, from the beep to the last shot fired, you are punishing the entire field!

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1 hour ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

IMO...

The pertinent info presented by the OP is "The TO is sure the last shot was not picked up by the timer."
How the T/O came to that realization is irrelevant to making the correct call.

<snip>

 

 

 

I disagree.  Benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter. 

 

At a big match, as MD, in order to make sure it's fair, I'd want to know why/how the TO is sure the last shot wasn't picked up.  Was the timer being watched?  Then yes, I'm with you.  If not, how does the TO know?  I guess I'm more skeptical.  I'm not going to take the TO's word for it. I maintain that there's not enough info presented here to make a call.

 

Yes, I know I'm arguing against a fence post, and this is my last post on the subject.  But without additional information, it's no so cut and dried to me.

Edited by Doc Shapiro
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2 minutes ago, Doc Shapiro said:

 

I disagree.  Benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter. 

 

At a big match, as MD, in order to make sure it's fair, I'd want to know why/how the TO is sure the last shot wasn't picked up.  

 

Yes, I know I'm arguing against a fence post, and this is my last post on the subject.  But without additional information, it's no so cut and dried to me.

 

The TO had a sausage biscuit on the way to the range. It's 70 degrees and dry. This is the 3rd stage of the day. Stand and deliver stage. Shot correctly. The TO is SURE because he did his job and watched the timer on the last shot. The numbers didn't change when the last pistol sounded off. :ph34r:

 I think we should have the TO sign an affidavit and get it notarized.

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