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Shooting smokeless lube bullets with BP


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I may have asked this before, but CRS seems regular sometimes.  What is the result of firing smokeless lubed bullets with true Black?  I know it is no problem with APP.

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I got a hot deal on some BPCR bullets (535 gr, I think) and they had waxy, smokeless lube.

With my trusty lighter, I heated up the lube and wiped it out with an old towel, then dip-lubed some SPG...Voila!

Good ta go shoot some BP.

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46 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

Dry, crusty fouling and maybe leading as well.

 

46 minutes ago, Rafe Conager SASS #56958 said:

cement like fouling! Increase you cleanup by 75% reduce accuracy.

Rafe 

 

3 minutes ago, Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L said:

Don’t do it 

This.  Don't ask me how I know!!

 

Chancy

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Many times reloading commercially, I ran out of BP lubed bullets but always had plenty of smokeless lubed bullets.

 

With a little experimenting, I came up with a way to remove the smokeless lube without damaging the bullets.

I made a small basket out of cage wire with a handle.

I could put about 200 to 300 bullets in the basket.

 

I had an old pot I would fill and boiled water.

With the water boiling I would dip the bullets in the basket in to the water.

In and out several times.

Then I would dump the bullets on to paper towels and roll them around.

The lube would stay in the boiling water and any left on the bullets would come off on the paper towels.

Once the water was boiling this process took only a few minutes.

I had clean bullets ready for BP lubing.

Edited by Cliff Hanger #3720LR
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Contrary to popular belief, it isn't that big of a deal!  Pistols don't appear to have any real problems.  Rifle, 24" barrel, a thick, hard crust will build approx. 5-6 inches from the muzzel.  Needless to say, your accuracy drops to where your shotgun will have a better pattern.  

 

Is there something that can be easily done to prevent this?  Yes!  For me, I run 2 wet/damp patches through the bore between stages.  1-2 minutes, max, of effort and I've never had an issue.  My routine is when I get to my cart, I empty my bag of spent brass in a water container, grab my patches, run them(first patch extremely dirty, second nearly clean.  If I run a third, the patch would be clean). 

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20 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

But do you have smokeless lube on the bullet as well?

Howdy Rainmaker...Yes normal smokeless lube  [ magma ]....I use real BP  and never had any issues in the last 6 years using 44-40 with 200grain bullet...lube cookee is 1/8'' thick  using felt soaked in bees wax. parrafin & oil mix..never swab the barrels & always works well. In fact  my .45 outfit using smokeless ends up much dirtier  !!!

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I do it all the time, I do run a couple of wet patch’s thru the rifle after each stage, pistols can usually go a 6 stage match without. I do usually dip my bullets in a beeswax/crisco mix at the loading table. Been doing this routine for 10 years now. I run goex/ schutzen and fill my 38s full.

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I use real black and smokeless bullets all the time

 

Yes, it is messier, yes it will foul,   but only if you do nothing for 9 stages

I just spray some ballistol down the rifle barrel between stages ( 44-40 )

45 pistols might get the cylinder pin sprayed after 3 stages

 

Clean up is PAM, and a paper towel down the barrel. maybe twice on the rifle.  then bore snake. done

 

I believe that your local weather and elevation may change things.

 

 

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Quote

straight Goex or Swiss in my .45-90 BPCR.

 

The big rifles is where the fouling is the hardest!  I shot 20 rounds through one of my 45-70s that had smokeless lube on bullets, and cases full of Goex 2f powder.   After 10 rounds, groups opened to "can't hit the broad side of barn".   Then after 20 it took about 30 minutes of scrubbing with PAM and hot soapy water to get all the fouling out of the barrel.  I'll NEVER do that again.

 

I'd find SOME way to use a BP lube for those big 'uns.

 

In dry hot weather, the fouling really glues itself to the barrel.  And BP cartridge rifles are the worst because of the 60-90 grains of powder being burned through a long barrel.

 

good luck, GJ

 

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708
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Did it for years before I found Springfield Slim's Big Lubes.  Never swabbed during the match but cleaned each day of a multi-day match.  Soaked the barrel for a minute or two with Citrus 409 then swabbed.  Final patch was impregnated with Bore Butter.  OMVs and a 20" 45 Colt Winchester 94.  

 

Caveat:  When using a 24" rifle, there was fouling at the last 4" of the barrel so I used 777 to keep from the extra couple of minutes of scrubbing.  

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 I've never competed with BP, but have messed with it quite a bit developing loads, etc. 

 

 I tried a lube called TAC-1 that I used to get off eBay. It appears (smells) to be beeswax based and it's the lube I use for my smokeless rifle and pistol bullets. I used it to lube this bullet-

 

 5mA9YHql.jpg

 

 ....loaded with Swiss 3Fg and fired it in my 1866 Sporting Rifle in 44-40. This is the lube star after somewhere around 15 rounds-

 

  tCbsRk1l.jpg

 

 I'd have to check my notes, but I could get between 15 and 20 rounds before fouling began to build up 6" or so from the muzzle back, and (100 yd.) accuracy would begin to suffer. Fouling was never particularly difficult to remove.

  This was really just a "What if?" experiment. 

 

 Cholla

 

 

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It can also lead to a sudden and dramatic loss of accuracy.  Many years ago (I think 1995), I shot a railroad flat match using BP and smokeless lube.  After about 6 stages, my rifle fouled so badly that it threw bullets all over the place. I couldn’t hit a rifle target at SASS ranges.  I cleaned the gun before the next stage and it tightened right up.  I went on to win the BP class but never used smokeless lube and BP again.  

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APP OK Real BP No No !

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Gunner, 40% of my black powder lube is paraffin, a mineral anhydrous compound,  It causes zero hard fouling, no leading and is the lube with mutton tallow and beeswax for all my BP Firearms.

One day, I shot 50 consecutive 38-55 BP reloads with no blow tubing or patching at Rams back to Chickens with minor vernier setting changes.  Then cleaned the bore with 3 water cotton ball patches and 2 dry ones… spotlessly clean bore

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On 6/30/2021 at 2:55 PM, Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326 said:

on pistols, if you fill the hole up with  BP lube like a cap and ball, usually no problem.  Not needed on every bullet if the first one down the tube has the C&B treatment.  

 

Been doing it that way for over 20 years in the pistols.  I do melt the hard crayon lube out of the bullets first because it is so easy (laying them on their side on newspaper in 250 degree oven for about 5 minutes) but I suspect it would be fine with the hard lube still in the bullets.  I squirt a blob of butter-flavored Crisco over the first two rounds in the cylinder at the loading table.  Cleanup is easy later.  Artie, every time you've ever seen me shoot BP, that's what I was doing.  For rifle, of course, I relube bullets with my BP lube.   Used to do that by pan-lubing (pain in the a**) until I got an old Lyman lubrisizer.

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As I've said, no real big issue as long as you swab the barrel between stages.  This is 3 patches after the 6th stage, with running 2 wet patches between stages.

 

S n S Casting, 38, 125gr

Well rounded 1cc Goex 3F Black

IMG_20210704_123010552~2.jpg

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On 7/4/2021 at 9:04 PM, Clueless Bob said:

As I've said, no real big issue as long as you swab the barrel between stages.  This is 3 patches after the 6th stage, with running 2 wet patches between stages.

 

S n S Casting, 38, 125gr

Well rounded 1cc Goex 3F Black

IMG_20210704_123010552~2.jpg

This, it’s not that much trouble to run a couple of patch’s after each stage......like I said, I’ve been doing it this way for years now, ymmv

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I have been shooting black for 60 years, never used smokeless lube.  For years used bees wax, lanolin mix but now use SPG.  My two .45-70 Trapdoors, .45-70 Sharps, .45-70 Marlin and .38-55 High Wall will do a 20 round string before they open up long distance.  

 

All my loads are loaded with lubed felt wads.  I go: powder, card wad, filler if needed, felt lube wad, card wad and black lubed bullet.  All guns will run for more than 12 stages with out a problem and no sprizing.

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On 6/30/2021 at 9:18 AM, Clueless Bob said:

Contrary to popular belief, it isn't that big of a deal!  Pistols don't appear to have any real problems.  Rifle, 24" barrel, a thick, hard crust will build approx. 5-6 inches from the muzzel.  Needless to say, your accuracy drops to where your shotgun will have a better pattern.  

 

Is there something that can be easily done to prevent this?  Yes!  For me, I run 2 wet/damp patches through the bore between stages.  1-2 minutes, max, of effort and I've never had an issue.  My routine is when I get to my cart, I empty my bag of spent brass in a water container, grab my patches, run them(first patch extremely dirty, second nearly clean.  If I run a third, the patch would be clean). 

THIS!   Personally I think a lot of these "You can't do that!" ex cathedra statements come not from personal experience but from that pool of "received knowledge" floating around the shooting world.... much of which is.... lets say.... "somewhat questionable" at times  (Was that subtle enough?:D)   OK...some of it probably comes from the RIFLE calibre side of things....BPCR and so on... but that is VERY different to Main match Cowboy use...

 

I shot Frontier Cartridge for some years...and won my share... and my loads consisted of BP-Semolina Filler- hard cast bullet (coated usually) for Pistol....and same with the addition of a home made grease cookie for Rifle.  Pistols ran fine... but just to be absolutely sure I would pull and clean the cylinder pin and the front of the cylinder about every 4 stages.  (So once a day at EOT)   

 

The rifle always displayed a nice "star" of lube at the muzzle...and it got a pull through once a day...     

 

I honestly think there is a small % of folks out there who want to make shooting BP in CAS sound way more difficult than it is.... dunno why.  Hell.. Ive been told one "must" use a Drop Tube loading BP.... PISTOL rounds.    Ummm.... seriously?;)

Edited by Constable Nelson #11784
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