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John Kloehr

Guns and Categories, rules confused me

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I read the rules, twice now, and I'm still confused.

 

I am looking to buy a pair of revolvers. They are a couple of Uberti Taylors 5-1/2 in .44 Special. I won't say more as I don't want to step on the rules for something for sale in the classifieds... But I need to learn a couple things before I drop the coin on them. Hopefully before someone else snags them.

 

I'm going to have to buy gear for reloading, and plan to shoot this sport with Holy Black.

 

I like fatter rounds compared to .38 Special. So I'll do this sport with what I am liking and go to .38 Special later when I can't get faster through skill.

 

So, starting with those pistols, what categories can I shoot and not shoot.

 

For a rifle, I am looking at a Winchester 1873.

 

For shotgun, I like the Steoger Coach gun.

 

And that is where I got confused... The shotgun I'm looking at does not have external hammers. What impact does this have on categories? What other combinations of firearms would open or close categories?

 

And I did figure out the difference between categories and styles. While I'm not planning gunfighter or duelist at this time, are there any firearm choices which affect available styles?

 

Hopefully these questions are clear... When I got interested, I knew there was CAS and Wild Bunch. Now it does not look quite that simple. I can save a lot of money sorting this out before I buy firearms which lock me out of certain fun.

 

 

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The Stoeger Coach gun excludes the "Classic Cowboy/Classic Cowgirl" category; which requires a hammered double with manually cocked hammers.  The revolvers excluded "Frontiersman" category which is limited to percussion revolvers.

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And the '73 rules out B-Western.

 

Everything else is available.

 

You said this in your post: "I like fatter rounds compared to .38 Special. So I'll do this sport with what I am liking and go to .38 Special later when I can't get faster through skill. "

 

There are reasons for .38 spl.  This is not one of them.  If this is your criteria, you'll never feel the need to switch.  I could write a book on it....

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If you are going to shoot Black Powder then you might want to consider 44-40 instead of 44 Spl.  The thinner bottle neck brass is better at preventing blow back than the straight thicker wall of the 44Spl.

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What they said ^^^

 

That particular set of guns excludes you from:

 

Frontiersma

Classic Cowboy

B-Western

 

In my opinion new shooters shouldn't start out in any of those categories anyway; though it is good to keep in mind when making purchases.  Reason being the clothing requirements add extra cost for B-Western/CC and there is a lot of other things to concentrate on when new besides loading c&b guns for Frontiersman. 

 

If you want to shoot B-Western at some point, sub a Marlin 94 or a Rossi/Winchester Chiappa 92 for the 73.

 

If you want to shoot Classic Cowboy at some point sub a hammered double or an 87 for the Stoeger and make sure the 73 is greater than .40

 

If you want to shoot Frontiersman at some point sub cap & ball revolvers for the Uberti's.

 

I've shot lots and lots of .44 Russian,  smokeless and BP, in my revolvers and like it a lot. That caliber is good for any category(except revolvers for Frontiersma). 

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25 minutes ago, Doc Shapiro said:

You said this in your post: "I like fatter rounds compared to .38 Special. So I'll do this sport with what I am liking and go to .38 Special later when I can't get faster through skill. "

 

There are reasons for .38 spl.  This is not one of them.  If this is your criteria, you'll never feel the need to switch.  I could write a book on it....

 

^^^^THIS^^^^

 

BTW I thought you did. 

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2 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

^^^^THIS^^^^

 

BTW I thought you did. 

 

My memory ain't what it was.  Too many knocks on the head.

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Really, BEFORE you buy anything... and I mean ANYTHING, carry yourself out to a local match.  Contact the club point person and express an interest in coming out to watch... AND learn.  Many clubs will set you up with an experienced competitor to answer all your questions.  Often that will lead to your "chaperone" offering to let you try their guns to see if you like them.  Sometimes for just a practice stage or for the whole match.  Be a gentleman, and offer to pay for any ammo you might expend... Shows uncommon courtesy and will go a LONG, LONG way to be welcomed back... even if the person refuses your offer!  Welcome to the superlative fun that's cowboy action shooting!

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John, 44 Spcl is a fine cartridge for this game, if that's what you like.  My first toggle rifle was a 44 Spcl yellowboy to go with 44 Spcl Colts.  I shot a lot of black powder and BP subs in it.  It is true that 44-40 keeps the action much cleaner (and why I use it for BP now) but the .44 Spcl does fine.  Just need to clean it a bit more often.  And many will say that having the same cartridge for pistol and rifle makes things easier.

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When matches start back go go ORSA and talk to those guys.

 

Jackalope is one of the best Frontier Cartridge Gunfighters to ever shoot this game.

 

Widder is the fastest person I've personally witnessed shoot a 97 shotgun.

 

Slater is one of the fastest I've seen shoot an 87 shotgun and can tune them up as well as anyone.

 

I could go on and on about all the good folks that shoot there, you'll be in good hands.

 

 

http://oakridgeoutlaws.org/

 

They have a forum too if you want to introduce yourself. 

 

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44 special in the revolvers is fine. You can also shoot 44 Russians. In the rifle the 44-40 will be much better at keeping the action cleaner compared to a 44 special rifle. With the cylinder gap in the revolver 44-40 doesn't help a lot but you'd have one cartridge to reload.

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OP, get your tail feathers to a shoot BEFORE buy'n anydangthing:excl:

BTW-.38 Special works very well with real BP. BTDT

BTW#2. Guns shot with BP need more mantaince/up keep, than those fired with smokeless powder.

OLG 

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1 hour ago, John Kloehr said:

While I'm not planning gunfighter or duelist at this time, are there any firearm choices which affect available styles?

 

You are thinking WAY too far ahead, especially since you already have your (first) revolvers in mind.

 

Gunfighter and duelist shooting MIGHT have you switching to guns that you can run faster one handed.   A common (but not required by any means) choice is a lowered hammer and a SAA handle (AKA Smokewagons), or a Bisley hammer and Bisley grip frame.  The revolvers that you probably have now are the standard SAA handle and standard hammer with upright spur.  GREAT for "modern" two-handed shooting style.   Sometimes they are a long reach that requires a hand shift if you have small hands when you try to shoot them one handed (GF or duelist).

 

When you get the 3 years of experience you may be at the point where the hammer style or grip style is slowing you down, or the duelist shooting starts to tickle your fancy -  then you can think about swapping, trading, or selling off high-spur guns.

 

Myself, I didn't know I was a duelist until I shot the first match and couldn't wrap either my hands or my mind around two handed shooting.  Still have those revolvers, though.   Often loan them to starting shooters.   I haven't seen a lot of folks make that quick a switch.  And most never want to.    So don't let future what-ifs kill off getting started quickly and easily.  Don't over think the future.  

 

I, too, strongly recommend getting out to the first match in your area that you can find, to answer the thousand and one questions that you didn't know you have right now.

 

Good luck, GJ

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I really cant add much more value to this conversation than what's already been said. but i'll second the following:

8 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

get your tail feathers to a shoot BEFORE buy'n anydangthing

*If you dont have any experience with these types of firearms.

21 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

44 special in the revolvers is fine. You can also shoot 44 Russians. In the rifle the 44-40 will be much better at keeping the action cleaner compared to a 44 special rifle

* argreed. However if you anneal your brass you'll not see a difference in how clean the internals stay on a 44 vs 44/40 rifle. 

 

Also everything @Tyrel Cody is spot on IMO. 

 

As for reloading if you dont have any experience in that department either i'd highly recommend finding a mentor in that department. Even if there's no one near you willing get a reloading manual now and start reading! It's really not difficult if you take your time and stay steady at it. Trust no ones load data without checking it against what the books tell you. Most everyone in our sport runs near the minimum for smokeless ammo. There's 2 types when it comes to loading BP. Those who want to pack as much powder as they can into a round and those who just want enough to get the smoke and boom! either one you decide to be there's no better categories than the black powder ones. Also if you're not gonna fill up the case with bp you'll need a filler to take up the airspace in the case and good lube. 

Happy shooting 

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I bring two .38 S&W Special revolvers, a .38 S&W Special Henry Big Boy and a Stoeger 20 gauge double in smokeless for loaning to newbies. Many matches have pards like me that try to help out those interested in giving our sport a try. I also bring two Ruger revolvers, and a Henry Golden Boy in .22 rimfire and a hammered .410 double for kids.

 

As a holy black wart hog, my .45  Colt Ruger revolvers and my Henry Big Boy are replete with BP as is my 10 gauge 3-1/2' AyA double. Obviously, that's not a good choice for new shooters  ;) It just is a good illustration of available choices  :)

 

 

 

 

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48 minutes ago, Turkey Flats Jack said:

Here's a doc to help keep what's needed for each of the categories. I believe @Ripsaw? was the one who did it. I'd love to see it in the shooters handbook at some point! 

SASS Category Matrix v2.5.pdf 163.44 kB · 0 downloads

 

I sent it to SASS headquarters a year ago with that suggestion. 

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First, welcome.

 

Second, you are not the first person to be befuddled by reading categories in the Handbook.  Trust me, it makes more sense “on the ground”.  Come to a match.


Lastly, he .44 Special is an awesome cartridge.  Fixed sight revolvers in .44 Special are good to go for all categories except Frontiersman which requires capguns.

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The one downfall of 44 special is lack of guns.  There simply are not that many out there.  Most are 44 mag, which will shoot 44 spl just fine, but are longer due to handling the longer round.  Open tops are one option that are in production for 44 spl and fixed sights. 

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One other thing that you didn't mention is if the revolvers had adjustable sights. There are a few categories that require fixed sight revolvers.

Like others have said...........................................

Get your tail to the range and try out everything offered to you. Don't worry about categories. ALL CATEGORIES MAY SHOOT BLACK POWDER>

You will be placed in an age based category where you can shoot any rifle, any pistol, and any shotgun that is SASS legal.

You may shoot any style of shooting in an aged based category except Gunfighter.

 

Go to a local shoot!!!!! 

Bring what you have.

 

 

 

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21 minutes ago, Still hand Bill said:

The one downfall of 44 special is lack of guns.  There simply are not that many out there. ...

 

Sometimes, but right now there are plenty of rifles in stock.

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OK, this all looks good.

 

The shotgun I am eyeing is good for what I want to do.

 

While .44 Special or 44 Russian mean I will likely have to load my own just to get out of the gate rather than buying some ammo just to scavenge the brass... That is not a big deal. Not as big a deal as loading my own anyway. And that will be a completely different set of threads and seeking trusted local assistance.

 

I have shot 3 times using loaner firearms, at Greenville twice and at the ORSA open house once. I did offer to pay for ammo, all offers solidly refused. Actually learned later it is illegal to sell reloaded ammo without a license but I did not get the sense from anyone that this was the reason my offer was declined.

 

The Uberti Taylors I am eyeing for sale look the same as the ones I handled at the Atlanta NRA convention, and I was very impressed by them. They fit my hand better than Ruger Vaqueros which I was also considering.

 

So for the revolvers, it looks like verifying the sights are fixed is the key open question. I'll follow up on that in the proper thread. And I will look at the holster requirements again.

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Starline sells brass for about all of the Cowboy rifles and pistols.

kR

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If you get to shoot with or just meet Jackalope and Widder, you will be in good hands. I don't know which clubs they shoot.

 

Jackalope lived out here for a few years and I've talked to Widder on the phone.

 

Best wishes and happy shooting!

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Look at .44 mag(AKA- .44 Russian extra-long:lol:).

What I have used play'n in CAS for the last 17+ yrs.

OLG 

 

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7 hours ago, John Kloehr said:

OK, this all looks good.

 

The shotgun I am eyeing is good for what I want to do.

 

While .44 Special or 44 Russian mean I will likely have to load my own just to get out of the gate rather than buying some ammo just to scavenge the brass... That is not a big deal. Not as big a deal as loading my own anyway. And that will be a completely different set of threads and seeking trusted local assistance.

 

I have shot 3 times using loaner firearms, at Greenville twice and at the ORSA open house once. I did offer to pay for ammo, all offers solidly refused. Actually learned later it is illegal to sell reloaded ammo without a license but I did not get the sense from anyone that this was the reason my offer was declined.

 

The Uberti Taylors I am eyeing for sale look the same as the ones I handled at the Atlanta NRA convention, and I was very impressed by them. They fit my hand better than Ruger Vaqueros which I was also considering.

 

So for the revolvers, it looks like verifying the sights are fixed is the key open question. I'll follow up on that in the proper thread. And I will look at the holster requirements again.

Choice Ammo, Black Hills, Grizzly Arms, Buffalo Bore, and Magtech all load all lead bullets in 44 Specials.  Still since you are already a reloader, just buy a thousand cases from Starline and develop your own pet loads.  200 grain bullets are good for revolvers.

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1 hour ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

If you get to shoot with or just meet Jackalope and Widder, you will be in good hands. I don't know which clubs they shoot.

 

Jackalope lived out here for a few years and I've talked to Widder on the phone.

 

Best wishes and happy shooting!

If you do shoot with them be careful they will have you doin things you never thought you would do .

kR

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1 hour ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

Choice Ammo, Black Hills, Grizzly Arms, Buffalo Bore, and Magtech all load all lead bullets in 44 Specials.  Still since you are already a reloader, just buy a thousand cases from Starline and develop your own pet loads.  200 grain bullets are good for revolvers.

Actually not yet. Been collecting my brass from various calibers for a while now, reloading is definitely in my future. While I have been running the math based on CAS, I will get additional savings reloading .223, 38 Special smokeless, and .357 Magnum.

 

Not planning to reload .22LR (duh), 9mm (no significant savings), or 7.62 (the steel-cased stuff is cheap, would reload brass but not worth buying).

 

Shotgun is another discussion for a future thread.

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6 minutes ago, Kid Rich said:

If you do shoot with them be careful they will have you doin things you never thought you would do .

kR

Now you have me wondering if it was one of them I saw showing a young kid how to shoot the pump shotgun by bracing it down low at the knees...

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Coulda been you're livin in the right state.

kR

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9 hours ago, John Kloehr said:

I did offer to pay for ammo, all offers solidly refused. Actually learned later it is illegal to sell reloaded ammo without a license but I did not get the sense from anyone that this was the reason my offer was declined.

I suspect not.  And, you're not "buying ammo", you're reimbursing them for their time... Just because a thing is "illegal"... doesn't mean the law's right!  'Sides, you can also offer to buy dinner... that way you have more time to ask 'em more questions!!!

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54 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

Actually not yet. Been collecting my brass from various calibers for a while now, reloading is definitely in my future. While I have been running the math based on CAS, I will get additional savings reloading .223, 38 Special smokeless, and .357 Magnum.

 

Not planning to reload .22LR (duh), 9mm (no significant savings), or 7.62 (the steel-cased stuff is cheap, would reload brass but not worth buying).

 

Shotgun is another discussion for a future thread.

Your cost analysis is good.  Regarding reloading shotgun shells: smokeless shells are not worth the bother.  Blackpowder shells are clearly worth reloading.  However, if you have trouble sourcing low-recoil smokeless shells you might start reloading.

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10 hours ago, John Kloehr said:

...

I have shot 3 times using loaner firearms, at Greenville twice and at the ORSA open house once. I did offer to pay for ammo, all offers solidly refused. Actually learned later it is illegal to sell reloaded ammo without a license but I did not get the sense from anyone that this was the reason my offer was declined.

...

Rifles can be fussy about ammo.  The over-all-length preferred by one rifle may be different from another.

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43 minutes ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

Your cost analysis is good.  Regarding reloading shotgun shells: smokeless shells are not worth the bother.  Blackpowder shells are clearly worth reloading.  However, if you have trouble sourcing low-recoil smokeless shells you might start reloading.

Back to a rules question...

 

If I go with BP for rifle and revolvers, do I have to also go with BP for shotgun? Is there a category which allows mixed until I get everything up to speed?

 

Aside from the likely "shoot what you brung and have fun" attitude at the club level?

 

On edit: I laid in a stock of competition 12GA 7-1/2 lead shotgun shells just before the price on those jumped. I already had the ability to deal with 20 rabid bears so saw no need to lay in more slugs or 00 buck. That got completely sold out a week later, and the competition shells sold out a few days after that. Did see some of the competition ammo at a local big-box retailer a few days later, they could not get hunting rounds.

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You can shoot blackpowder ammunition in any category.  In one of the smokeless categories you can shoot blackpowder ammunition.  You can shoot both blackpowder ammunition and smokeless ammunition in smokeless categories.  You are disadvantaged shooting blackpowder in a smokeless category since you have to content with smoke obscuring targets.  Just start shooting smokeless ammunition and once you learn the game you can try the Darkside.  There are plenty of Soot Lords on this Wire that will help you make the change.

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