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William Waddy

Ladies in Plainsman Event - bending the duelist rule

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I'm seeking some clarification on a Plainsman Event rule.

Plainsman Event rules clearly state that pistols have to be shot duelist style, and that obviously means not using the off-hand to cock the pistol except if there is some sort of malfunction that requires clearing with the off-hand (e.g., a cap gets stuck and won't let the cylinder rotate).

However, I understand that at Winter Range and other major events, ladies have been allowed to cock with the off-hand as long as they shoot with one hand. Is this an official rule change?

Frankly, I don't personally have a problem allowing ladies to cock with the off-hand as long as they then fully drop that hand to their side between shots. However, I have seen some who want to keep that off-hand right next to the pistol, in which case they have a real advantage against most ladies who strictly follow duelist rules. I don't like that.

I love getting more ladies involved in the Plains/Plainsman Event, but feel that this accommodation needs some formal clarification and standard definition.

What says the wire?

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I agree that ladies shooting plainsman (or even frontiersman) should be allowed to cock pistols with the off hand even if they shoot with a traditional grip.  I would think this would take a rule change by the TGs.  For that matter, adding a duelist sub category would do the same thing.  However, I don't think there are a sufficient number of Lady participants to make the categories.  As it was, there were only 9 Frontiersmen participating at EOT this year.  Matches smaller than EOT or WR would have a difficult time making those categories.  I have been shooting Frontiersman for years now, love my C&B guns and I have bought a pair for Sexie Sadie.  As our arthritis makes single hand cocking more difficult we will shoot our C&Bs in the Frontier Cartridge category to off-hand cock.  The more that shoot BP, the better!

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At our annual, we offer a "Modified Plainsman"

Shooters can use percussion or cartridge guns, a single-shot or big bore lever.

They can shoot the revolvers one-handed (duelist or gunfighter) or 2-handed.

Black powder in all loads

The idea is to get folks to play.

At a big shoot, they probably have no problem getting enough folks shooting it with just cap guns, but at our smaller annual (115 shooters) we expand it so more will play.

We end up with 20 or so shooters

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11 minutes ago, Artie Fly, SASS #25397 said:

I would think this would take a rule change by the TGs.  For that matter, adding a duelist sub category would do the same thing. 

Two points: 1) don't hold your breath for a rule change from the TGs. Nobody can figure out how to get them together for a vote.   2) Why do you need a duelist subcategory for a category/side match that already requires you to shoot duelist?

 

BS

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6 minutes ago, Barry Sloe said:

2) Why do you need a duelist subcategory for a category/side match that already requires you to shoot duelist?

 

I guess I was thinking main match categories.

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The ladies who shot the Plainsman at both the Four Corners Regional and EOT this year cocked their revolvers with their off hand and shot with their strong hand.  I don't recall if they dropped their off hand or not.  No one complained and all were pleased that the ladies joined us.  (I loaned and loaded '58 Remingtons for one of them.)  I say let the ladies keep shooting this way.  BTW, they really enjoyed the Plainsman.

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Not much different than allowing calibers smaller than 40 to shoot a Wild Bunch side match.  Because Wild Bunch is an official SASS category they are called Professional Matches around here. Excellent way to introduce people to Wild Bunch using the equipment they already own.

 

I wouldn't bother with a rule change. I doubt it would ever get off the ground.  Just call it something other than Plainsman/Plainswoman (which is an official SASS category) and have some fun.

 

Maybe call it Prairie Scout?

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SASS Western Regional, and most Clubs, allow Ladies to Cock with the off hand, drop, shoot, repeat.

It's up to the individual MD to say yea or nay.

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PLUS ONE too Prairie Dawg.  "Modified Planesman" gets more folks to play.  That equals more FUN!!

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I developed raging tendinitis shooting frontiersman/plainsman.  The big ROAs just proved too much to handle safely.  I just changed categories.

 

They are still great fun to shoot two handed.

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I believe at one EOT a few years a go it was decided for the time to allow both ladies and juniors to "cock" with the off hand but shoot with the strong/grip hand.

 

We have followed that determination at all the Plainsman events we gave sponsored and entered since.

 

And, personally,  I will keep recognizing that behavior for ladies nd juniors.

 

Ol'  #4

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I enjoyed Plainsman when we threw hawks, lances, knives, dragged dummies, and shot bow and arrows. It was a unique event that wasn't for everyone, it was fun to watch. Now it's just about shooting the guns. Who wants to do a 12 stage old fashioned Plainsman event?

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14 minutes ago, Assassin said:

I enjoyed Plainsman when we threw hawks, lances, knives, dragged dummies, and shot bow and arrows. It was a unique event that wasn't for everyone, it was fun to watch. Now it's just about shooting the guns. Who wants to do a 12 stage old fashioned Plainsman event?

 

Would love to.

 

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Where can we do it to get a few good men???

 

#4

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I guess I’m the odd one out here who thinks ladies should follow the same rules as the men. 

 

Unless of course the rules for the ladies category were to read differently. 

Edited by Smokestack SASS#87384
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I've been thinking that maybe the way to do it is to have two ladies plainsmen categories, one that sticks to duelist rules, and the other that allows cocking with the off-hand. That way there is no disadvantage for the ladies who are able, and like the challenge, of shooting pure duelist even if it takes a little longer. If they all win a prize, so much the better.

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9 hours ago, Assassin said:

Who wants to do a 12 stage old fashioned Plainsman event?

I make all my major shooting changes at the 1st of the year.  Next year I'll be pulling out my old armies and giving it a go.  And, I just picked up a pair of 58 Remingtons, in case I get bored with the OAs.  

For better or worse,  Frontiersman here I come.

 

BS

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I just started doing the Plainsman side event this year with Pietta 1860's. It's been a blast but different. Shooting duelist is fun, but with my strong side hand not being able to hold up the pistol I have to shoot left handed and getting an 8" gun out of my right holster is interesting at best! Might need to go with a left handed cross draw in the future! Still, had a great time doing it!

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Right this very minute we are at CAC in Texas. My wife is shooting frontiersman. Now she is the only one shooting it, but she only uses one hand. Yes it is hard, but instead of changing the rules maybe you should do some strengthening exercises or practice. I sometimes wonder where our kids get the idea the world should change rules and laws just to make them happy. They get it from us. If it doesn’t work the way we want, we want it changed. I’m sorry, here is the game and here are the rules. Play or don’t. 

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9 hours ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

I guess I’m the odd one out here who thinks ladies should follow the same rules as the men. 

 

Unless of course the rules for the ladies category were to read differently. 

 

I agree with you to make it the odd two....

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31 minutes ago, Matthew Duncan said:

 

I agree with you to make it the odd two....

Odd three...

 

While not frontiersman, my wife shoots duelist.

 

That's with one hand. 

 

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For clarification 

 

Frontiersman is an offical SASS main match category.   To quote Noz "LEAVE FRONTIERSMAN ALONE"

 

Plainsman is a side match.

 

This discussion is about making local accomidations / additional categories to entice more shooters to participate in a Plainsman side match.

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6 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

For clarification 

 

Frontiersman is an offical SASS main match category.   To quote Noz "LEAVE FRONTIERSMAN ALONE"

 

Plainsman is a side match.

 

This discussion is about making local accomidations / additional categories to entice more shooters to participate in a Plainsman side match.

I understand. 

 

My thoughts - if you're going to relax it for lady's, you do it for men too. 

 

Otherwise, leave it alone. 

 

And no, I don't shoot plainsman or wild bunch. 

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In the SASS BP championship matches, they open up the categories in a different matrix than the standard SASS categories.

 

Part of that expanded matrix is adding a category allowing someone to shoot frontiersman in the gunfighter style and another to shoot cap guns in the traditional (two handed) style in addition to the regular frontiersman category.

 

Could you do something simular in this case? 

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Everyone can't shoot derringers, pocket pistols, long range, etc.

I don't feel the need for making exceptions for everyone. Haven't we done enough damage to "Main Match" shooting with all the boutique categories.

 

 

One thing about Plainsman, you can shoot any gun last and don't have to worry about the timer picking up the last shot.

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Frankly, this change (allowing ladies to use the off-thumb to cock the hammer in Plainsmen), should garner the same amount of support as allowing the same exclusion to proper operating technique in Ladies main match categories, where for example, a Lady Duelist, has to shoot duelist style.  What?  Give two trophies out for women, the Lady Plainsman first place winner is......   and then follow that by announcing, "...the Non-Conforming Lady Plainsman first place winner is....?  I'll be the first to say... what's good for goose is good for the gander... do the same thing for somewhat manly men who don't like that one-handed shooting thing... 

 

You want to know why the Ladies don't like shooting Plainsman events....  you husbands bring out your 45-70, 45-90, 45-120, 50-95 Sharps rifles with 28-30" barrels and ask her to shoot them with your 500gr. hunting loads.  Even the .38-55 in hunting trim can be a bit threatening to some women...   Okay, maybe I exaggerate, "almost hunting loads....! :P

 

I let a lady use my 45 Colt 1885 "Low-wall" for a stage after shooting her husband's .38-55 Handi Rifle,  she immediately turned to him, "BUY ME ONE OF THESE".   I wasn't sure I was going to get mine back!

Edited by Griff
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14 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

For clarification 

 

Frontiersman is an offical SASS main match category.   To quote Noz "LEAVE FRONTIERSMAN ALONE"

 

Plainsman is a side match.

 

This discussion is about making local accomidations / additional categories to entice more shooters to participate in a Plainsman side match.

Yep, that's what I'm asking. I see no need to relate this to the Frontiersman main match category. Full disclosure - my 5'2" wife shoots ROA's double duelist style, a 45LC handi-rifle, and a 20g Browning sxs in the Plainsman Event. She is not interested in any accommodation, but I know others are, and I'm kind of on-the-fence, which is why I'm looking for input. Thanks much.

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Years ago we determined that we could not write scenarios that forced a shooter to shoot one handed or with the off hand due to safety concerns. Everyone isn't capable of shooting Duelist or shooting with their off hand. Now, someone wants to allow shooters that are not capable of operating their guns as described for a side match. 

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I have shot Plainsman since 2000. At first, I was able to shoot Duelist style. After hand surgery on my strong hand in 2005, I've been cocking with the off hand and then lowering the hand as an accommodation. It is very slow and I am always last unless I am the only woman.

 

If you think it is too much of an advantage, try it sometime.

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15 hours ago, David Richert said:

Just add a procedure penalty 

Like I wrote, try it sometime. It adds way more time than 10 seconds per stage. Cocking with the off hand is not an advantage. However, I would accept a P to shoot. Unfortunately, the arthritis in my strong hand is so bad that I have a hard time changing cylinders. I've never been able to load them.

 

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Plainsman pretty much died around here when it went to a gun only event. It was a hoot when we used all of the tools available to a Plainsman; hawks, bow and arrows, lances, knives, etc. I'm not opposed to cocking with the off hand. I'm opposed to adding additional categories to anything. 

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Since the handbook officially states it has to be shot duelist, that pretty much closes the door.  Individual matches are free to add additional categories with a minimum number of shooters to make it "go" if they choose to do so and that seems like the solution to allow more ladies to participate.  The issue is some of them want to do Plainsman but can't manage the guns duelist.  Create a name for the category and allow an actual two handed grip.   The minimum can be 1 person for the ladies if that is how you want to do it.  Some matches you might end up with 2 or 3 or 4 ladies shooting two handed and none shooting duelist.  GREAT!

Before I get jumped on about category expansion - we're talking about a SIDE MATCH, not main match.   Now, as an example and reminder, I'm going to use a bit of history from main match BP categories.  Go back in time and there were no ladies BP categories at all.  I could shoot with the men or the Smokeless Ones in a ladies category.  Yes, it's hard to find ladies that like to shoot GF or duelist in main match but LFC gets good participation now.  Moral: Let them hang on with both hands and they will come. 

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