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Long Hunter SASS #20389L

My take on EOT and SASS

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3 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

This! 

 

If a Colt SAA without a transfer bar is acceptable then so is a Ruger that's had it's transfer bar removed.  If you get hit in the face with a piece of blown up gun it will be small consolation that the gun was manufactured to work that way as opposed to modified to work that way.  The same is true for lever safeties in an 1873.  If an 1866 without a lever safety is considered safe enough for SASS then an 1873 that has been modified to run the exact same way is also safe enough for SASS.

No they aren't the same.  One came with a saftey feature from the factory the other did not.    How hard do you think a lawyer would have to work once the non cas shooting jury hears safety feature removed?   It doesn't matter that a colt style ruger and an actual colt are equally safe.   Perception will win,  and removing a saftey will never be percieved as a good idea.

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31 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

I edited my post accordingly, I wasn't thinking rimfire.

 

Were any of the original 73's rimfire? I'm assuming they added the lever safety as soon as they figured out the centerfire cartridge was a potential out of battery disaster. 

I’m not sure about rimfire ‘73s, and you are likely right about why the safety was added, but it’s not because of issues with the ‘66. 

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35 minutes ago, evil dogooder said:

No they aren't the same.  One came with a saftey feature from the factory the other did not.    How hard do you think a lawyer would have to work once the non cas shooting jury hears safety feature removed?   It doesn't matter that a colt style ruger and an actual colt are equally safe.   Perception will win,  and removing a saftey will never be percieved as a good idea.

I never said they were the same, I said they were equally safe.  Other than that, I don't disagree with anything you've said.  In fact you make my point "a Colt style Ruger and an actual Colt are equally safe."  I agree, they're equally safe. 

 

I don't much care about what a lawyer can do with it.  I like em this way, they're legal this way, to heck with lawyers.

 

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Back to my point, people and lawyers will sue for whatever. Doesn't matter if 30,000 shooters, it's a number,  are shooting 73's without an incident, then there is one. Lawyers will get in line. So an old women buys a coffee at McDonalds, can we all agree that coffee is hot, she spills it on her, she sues and..........she gets a payout. Never should have happened.

Modern 66's and 73's will fire out of battery, so removing the safety is a good thing! Besides they now can work the safety spring so the safety still works but eliminates the spring resistance. Why not have one then?

In reality the shooter asked to have the mod performed and or did it themselves. Why is anyone but the shooter responsible? Because there are lawyers and people wanting payouts for their own decisions.

Ike

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Long Hunter SASS #20389L said:

Howdy,

It’s been several years since I’ve posted on the SASS wire even though I’ve followed it all along. Always like to keep up with old friends and see how they’re doing.

 

Now to the point of posting now. This years EOT sounded like it would have been fun to shoot since they’re finally moving the targets back out and making people use a little brain power to work their way through a stage. The dumbfounding thing that changed over the last few years is saying a stage was unfair because there was a missable target on it. Or it took too much thinking. Remember visiting with Hipshot around 2001 and he stated at that time a World Champion should be diverse in all skills. That means close, far, up and down, movement, reloading on the clock, hit a bird from flippers and launched plus transitions.

 

Most think the multitude of categories is a good thing. I disagree. The reason is, it puts pressure on everyone to place as high as possible so they’re not embarrassed by placing last or towards the bottom of their very small category. In the older days with fewer categories there were always at least 10 in the bulk of them, so the bottom didn’t have to go up front and divulge their finish. They could simply have fun and learn from the experience and try for a top ten at the next match. It used to be a win to even get to the top 10 in a category.

 

Years ago, the top shooters in SASS were well respected by the other shooting sports and manufactures due to the diverse skills it took to be successful. I realize a lot of people here don’t care, but you should. Advertising dollars comes with this respect which means a healthy prosperous SASS and more shooters in our game.

 

In today’s SASS, some gun mods have reached the point of dangerous for the sake of a few milliseconds in time saved. In my opinion, these have come about due to extremely close targets that requires the shooter only to have the ability to operate the firearm as fast as possible. Sight picture and trigger control were thrown out the window. If SASS intends to continue this trend of moving targets back out and make it a shooting match instead of an operating match, you’ll see me back at the major cowboy matches. And it’s not just me. I’ve visited with many old friends that left SASS for this very reason.

 

Some of the well-known mods are removing the transfer bar from Rugers and the lever assist links put in the 73’s. It doesn’t take but one accident with the Ruger or a blown up 73 to bankrupt SASS. If someone gets hurt or even killed by these mods, a family member can sue not only the gunsmith and the person that owns the gun, but also SASS for knowingly allowing these mods in their game and on their range. The signed waiver by the shooters will not be worth the paper it’s written on. It’s a long story, but I sat on a witness stand 35 years ago for 6+ hours and the company I worked for lost millions. They supplied power to a county fair facility but didn’t owned anything behind the primary metering. Two county employees were killed. The reason they lost was because they knowingly provided power to an unsafe facility. SASS is knowingly providing a venue for guns the manufactures have deemed unsafe.

 

For the good of SASS, my hope is they will move the targets out and stagger a few. Most of these mods would not help a competitor and would go away if they do.

 

Long Hunter

SASS #20389

 

 

So how does SASS put the genie back in the bottle and bring back the charm of the old days? When I first started CAS I shot out at Pala nearly every month and there were probably 80 or so shooters at a monthly match. Over the next 8 years or so the attendance dribbled away to where there were maybe 10-15 shooters at a monthly match. Other venues continued to grow and prosper, they were updating targets, injecting new stage writing, trying not to eliminate clean matches, etc.. Pala on the other hand was using the old handwritten stages from the early days, sometimes every stage would be six or eight rifle and 2-1-2 or a Nevada sweep. When I suggested a few changes that might make the matches more fun and attract more shooters the MD and other long time members got pretty upset. How dare I suggest change to something that’s been around for so long!!! Well Pala isn’t around anymore and other clubs that did a little changing are still around. Our CAS population is aging and there’s nothing we can do to stop that absent a very expensive, long term promotional campaign and SASS doesn’t have the funds to go down that road.

 

On the second Saturday of the month I have two choices for matches Club D, old, odd sized targets set further away or Club C, newer round or square targets set closer with imaginative stage writing with movement. I can drive to either venue early in the morning in about the same time but it takes me two to three times as long to drive back from Club C because of heavy freeway traffic. Many times I’ll choose Club C because I find it much more enjoyable and tolerate the traffic, were there not another option I’d frequent Club D. Anytime I’ve been asked by the Club D people what it would take to get me to shoot there each month, steam starts rolling out of their ears at the mention of closer bigger, newer targets. Club D thinks it’s pretty special that not many shooters shoot a clean match, anymore a clean match is my goal.

 

So does SASS come out with a prohibition on any firearm that’s been modified from how it left the factory? How many 1897 shotguns have been modified to make them faster and more reliable and less safe in a non SASS friendly court of law? How about the 1892’s out there that have had the safeties removed? How about all of the SxS’s with the disabled safeties? Surely those losing sleep over the transfer bar removals have got to be having the same thoughts about other mods that render a safety feature inoperable for the speed or dependability factor.

 

When SASS packed up in the middle of the night and moved to New Mexico people were shocked, outraged, overjoyed and on and on. Truth be told that was probably one of the best moves SASS ever made because if EOT were to be held back here in California I’d bet the turnout would be less than 200 participants based on the last Western Divisional that was held up at the venue where EOT used to be held. CAS and SASS doesn’t carry much weight up there anymore and not many out of state shooters want to test California’s screwed up gun laws, for good reason.

 

EOT being the perfect match where everyone is happy is unrealistic also. I’m pretty sure Misty, Deuce, Lassiter and others involved will study the comment cards and make some changes to make everybody happy but we all know that will never happen, it’s impossible to please everyone. Some will think it was to easy, some will think it to difficult, targets to big, targets to little, targets to far, targets to close no matter what they do this time next year there will be grousing on the Wire about what a success or failure EOT was.

Edited by Yul Lose
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Ok, I've read a lot of differing opinions about stages, categories, gun modifications, target size and target distance.  Some have made good arguments to support their opinion some not so good.  I think it's valid to assume that any time there is change there will be folks that like it and some that don't.  With that said one thing I haven't seen brought up is caliber.  Gun caliber has been thrown out the window and from what I've seen it does make a difference with regards to time.  If we're trying in some small way to emulate the old west why are we allowing rifles using .38's?  Why not allow everyone to use .22's?  Maybe SASS should look at a caliber floor based on age/sex.  One last thing, further smaller targets? Closer larger targets?  Shouldn't it be the opposite?  The further away the larger the target and vice versa?  Just my .02 worth.  Ok now everyone tell me why I'm wrong and don't know what I'm talking about..

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4 hours ago, Arcadia Outlaw SASS#71385 said:

The way we load our guns for SASS , not having a T bar should not be a issue. 

A ND is a ND, no matter what the power level of the ammo is. ;)

The only other thing equal, is the level of stupid that caused the ND.

OLG

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Yul Lose said:

 

So does SASS come out with a prohibition on any firearm that’s been modified from how it left the factory? How many 1897 shotguns have been modified to make them faster and more reliable and less safe in a non SASS friendly court of law? How about the 1892’s out there that have had the safeties removed? How about all of the SxS’s with the disabled safeties? Surely those losing sleep over the transfer bar removals have got to be having the same thoughts about other mods that render a safety feature inoperable for the speed or dependability factor.

 

 

 

Howdy Yul.     Good post.

Another 'modification' that nearly every SASS type gunsmith will make is beveling (chamfer) the chamber entrance

to SxS shotguns.

Its my limited understanding that some, if not all, SxS manufacturers recommend AGAINST this mod due

to 'their' safety reasons.

That being stated..... I wonder just how many SASS/CAS gunsmith businesses offer this service on SxS 

chamber entrance?

:o

 

EDIT:  did I just hear a few 'gasp'?

 

..........Widder

 

Edited by Widder, SASS #59054
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So the old days were different with different people. Things change, for the better or worse?  lack of respect from other shooting games. We are what you see in the mirror. Accept it.  

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1 minute ago, VICIOUS, SASS#8014 said:

So the old days were different with different people. Things change, for the better or worse?  lack of respect from other shooting games. We are what you see in the mirror. Accept it.  

 

1 minute ago, VICIOUS, SASS#8014 said:

So the old days were different with different people. Things change, for the better or worse?  lack of respect from other shooting games. We are what you see in the mirror. Accept it.  

 

So when you put good CAS shooters against cops or other disciplines the CAS shooters usually win, wonder why that is.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Tequila Chase said:

Ok, I've read a lot of differing opinions about stages, categories, gun modifications, target size and target distance.  Some have made good arguments to support their opinion some not so good.  I think it's valid to assume that any time there is change there will be folks that like it and some that don't.  With that said one thing I haven't seen brought up is caliber.  Gun caliber has been thrown out the window and from what I've seen it does make a difference with regards to time.  If we're trying in some small way to emulate the old west why are we allowing rifles using .38's?  Why not allow everyone to use .22's?  Maybe SASS should look at a caliber floor based on age/sex.  One last thing, further smaller targets? Closer larger targets?  Shouldn't it be the opposite?  The further away the larger the target and vice versa?  Just my .02 worth.  Ok now everyone tell me why I'm wrong and don't know what I'm talking about..

The size of the hole in the barrel has ZERO to do with speed. 

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Posted (edited)

I guess I fail to understand the logic where removing the transfer bar on a Ruger is dangerous but installing a one piece firing pin in a Marlin isn’t. 

 

 

Edited by Smokestack SASS#87384
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1 hour ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

The size of the hole in the barrel has ZERO to do with speed. 

 

Smokestack I have to disagree, what about recoil?  That effects you're time from shot to target acquisition which will affects your overall time.  Still don't think so?  Why use a 20 gauge shotgun instead of a 10 gauge, in a word recoil.

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3 minutes ago, Tequila Chase said:

 

Smokestack I have to disagree, what about recoil?  That effects you're time from shot to target acquisition which will affects your overall time.  Still don't think so?  Why use a 20 gauge shotgun instead of a 10 gauge, in a word recoil.

Recoil can easily be dealt with on larger calibers when reloading, the same with SG. 

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1 hour ago, Arcadia Outlaw SASS#71385 said:

 

 

So when you put good CAS shooters against cops or other disciplines the CAS shooters usually win, wonder why that is.

 

 

I’ll tell you why. Officers are not spending the time on the range. I put around 10,000 rounds down range a year. The majority of my department shoots 50-100 rounds on qualification day.

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1 hour ago, Tequila Chase said:

Ok, I've read a lot of differing opinions about stages, categories, gun modifications, target size and target distance.  Some have made good arguments to support their opinion some not so good.  I think it's valid to assume that any time there is change there will be folks that like it and some that don't.  With that said one thing I haven't seen brought up is caliber.  Gun caliber has been thrown out the window and from what I've seen it does make a difference with regards to time.  If we're trying in some small way to emulate the old west why are we allowing rifles using .38's?  Why not allow everyone to use .22's?  Maybe SASS should look at a caliber floor based on age/sex.  One last thing, further smaller targets? Closer larger targets?  Shouldn't it be the opposite?  The further away the larger the target and vice versa?  Just my .02 worth.  Ok now everyone tell me why I'm wrong and don't know what I'm talking about..

 

Guess you haven't heard of the .32WCF(.32-20)that came out in 1882........^_^

OLG

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1 hour ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

I guess I fail to understand the logic where removing the transfer bar on a Ruger is dangerous but installing a one piece firing pin in a Marlin isn’t. 

2688A257-A42C-4D2C-9A14-D8D24F8C6114.png

 

How is the 1 piece FP unsafe?

M/94, w/1 piece FP-The FP is not touching the primer when the hammer is all the way down on a chambered rnd

A Ruger w/o the t'bar lets the FP touch the primer, when the hammer is down-That is the concern......

OLG

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11 minutes ago, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said:

I’ll tell you why. Officers are not spending the time on the range. I put around 10,000 rounds down range a year. The majority of my department shoots 50-100 rounds on qualification day.

Early on in my two-way radio career our shop shared the building with a U.S. Border Patrol station. I got to know the BP officers very well and even rented a home from one of them for a time. They used .38 caliber revolvers back then and most of them hated going to the range to fire their required 100 rounds per month. Well they all knew that I had quite a few .38 revolvers that I had come across and they’d give me their ammo to fire and all they wanted from me was the empty brass back so that they could show the station chief that they’d gone to the range. Worked out pretty well for me.

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1 hour ago, Tequila Chase said:

Ok, I've read a lot of differing opinions about stages, categories, gun modifications, target size and target distance.  Some have made good arguments to support their opinion some not so good.  I think it's valid to assume that any time there is change there will be folks that like it and some that don't.  With that said one thing I haven't seen brought up is caliber.  Gun caliber has been thrown out the window and from what I've seen it does make a difference with regards to time.  If we're trying in some small way to emulate the old west why are we allowing rifles using .38's?  Why not allow everyone to use .22's?  Maybe SASS should look at a caliber floor based on age/sex.  One last thing, further smaller targets? Closer larger targets?  Shouldn't it be the opposite?  The further away the larger the target and vice versa?  Just my .02 worth.  Ok now everyone tell me why I'm wrong and don't know what I'm talking about..

Seriously?

 

If you would prefer "The Real West",  just pretend like you're shooting most of the targets in the back or from a blind side position. 

 

You could also ride a horse or take a horse drawn wagon to the match. I guess that little blue thing that beeps must be a huge distraction also.

 

Sorry bud, this one struck a chord with me.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

 

Edited by El Hombre Sin Nombre
Mistaken information.
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Some of you are obviously adding words in my mouth that was not posted nor said by me. So here is another clarification:

I never implied that all mods should be illegal. The short stroked and slicked up guns are safe and a pleasure to shoot . A very simple declaration of what I said would be to put the external safety in the off position with a round in the chamber. Is it in the same condition as it was when it left the factory? If the answer is yes, then it is a safe gun. 

 

Smokestack, please don't compare apples to oranges. And it's a little insulting for you to bring my or anyone's business in to this discussion. Marlin added the two piece pin so the gun wouldn't fire without the locking bolt being installed in the gun. If someone removes it, then they are personally responsible.  If SASS knows they removed it, it should be declared an illegal, unsafe gun and so stated in the rules and the shooter disqualified.

 

I know of two AD's with Rugers with the transfer bars removed. Both were caused by leaving a round under the chamber at the loading table. 

1. The person laid their pistols on the table and went to cart. Came back and dropped one while holstering in a hurry to get to the line. The round went off and did not hit anyone.

2. The person was called to the expediting area and attempted to rest the long guns on their holstered pistols. The shotgun butt set off a round in the holstered gun that landed by the shooters feet. Again, no one was hurt.

 

Can't count the number of times I've witnessed a shooter on the firing line leaving a live round under the hammer from the loading table. If the first four rounds from the revolver fires, then a click and the then the last round fires, the hammer was resting on the first round when they went to the line. If it goes click and then the five rounds are fired, it was resting on the last round.

 

Also, no where did I post the targets should be set at extremely far distances. Simply follow SASS's own minimum guidelines. 

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Been doing this game 13 years.

 

Been hearing about the 'good old' days for same amount of time.

 

What I have noticed is a whole lot less misses on posses, so some local clubs are starting to push the targets back out.  When misses increases, they'll come back close.  

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56 minutes ago, Tequila Chase said:

 

Smokestack I have to disagree, what about recoil?  That effects you're time from shot to target acquisition which will affects your overall time.  Still don't think so?  Why use a 20 gauge shotgun instead of a 10 gauge, in a word recoil.

Have you seen Smokestack shoot his 44-40? Very few can shoot faster than that, no matter what the caliber.

 

Randy

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7 minutes ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

Have you seen Smokestack shoot his 44-40? Very few can shoot faster than that, no matter what the caliber.

 

Randy

When SS shoots-You swear you are hear'n something that is belt-fed.......:D

OLG

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41 minutes ago, Long Hunter SASS #20389L said:

Some of you are obviously adding words in my mouth that was not posted nor said by me. So here is another clarification:

I never implied that all mods should be illegal. The short stroked and slicked up guns are safe and a pleasure to shoot . A very simple declaration of what I said would be to put the external safety in the off position with a round in the chamber. Is it in the same condition as it was when it left the factory? If the answer is yes, then it is a safe gun. 

 

Smokestack, please don't compare apples to oranges. And it's a little insulting for you to bring my or anyone's business in to this discussion. Marlin added the two piece pin so the gun wouldn't fire without the locking bolt being installed in the gun. If someone removes it, then they are personally responsible.  If SASS knows they removed it, it should be declared an illegal, unsafe gun and so stated in the rules and the shooter disqualified.

 

I know of two AD's with Rugers with the transfer bars removed. Both were caused by leaving a round under the chamber at the loading table. 

1. The person laid their pistols on the table and went to cart. Came back and dropped one while holstering in a hurry to get to the line. The round went off and did not hit anyone.

2. The person was called to the expediting area and attempted to rest the long guns on their holstered pistols. The shotgun butt set off a round in the holstered gun that landed by the shooters feet. Again, no one was hurt.

 

Can't count the number of times I've witnessed a shooter on the firing line leaving a live round under the hammer from the loading table. If the first four rounds from the revolver fires, then a click and the then the last round fires, the hammer was resting on the first round when they went to the line. If it goes click and then the five rounds are fired, it was resting on the last round.

 

Also, no where did I post the targets should be set at extremely far distances. Simply follow SASS's own minimum guidelines. 

I certainly did not intend to insult anyone and I apologize if you were. I don’t feel that the one piece firing pin nor the deleted transfer bar are unsafe modifications and personally don’t see much difference in the two. 

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2 minutes ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

I certainly did not intend to insult anyone and I apologize if you were. I don’t feel that the one piece firing pin nor the deleted transfer bar are unsafe modifications and personally don’t see much difference in the two. 

 

I'm of the understanding that the "spade" end of the Marlin lever interrupts the firing pin until the bolt is closed. (Note how the spade enters the cut in the bolt and fits into a cut in the firing pin. The first opening action of the lever retracts the firing pin. The last action of closing is to swing down enough to let the pin move forward. )  If the locking bolt is installed,  the potential for accidental discharge is the same with one-piece as two piece. 

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3 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

 

I don't much care about what a lawyer can do with it.  I like em this way, they're legal this way, to heck with lawyers.

Keep in mind that if you ever do get sued, the discovery process will have access to everything you have ever posted via the Internet. 

Do take due care, my friend.  

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1 hour ago, Cypress Sun said:

You could also ride a horse or take a horse drawn wagon to the match.

Sounds very fun.  Maybe I'll look into putting together a full  Conestoga and four Ox team, rather than a travel trailer.  Do you know if EOT offers wagon parking spaces and oxen boarding at the ranch?  I'm surprised somebody hasn't done that before, as part of a costume.  

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All this 'law suit' talk has got me thinking.

 

If someone can be sued because of an

accident with a modified firearm,

can an owner of a Non-modified (Factory spec'd) firearm sue the manufacturer for a

punctured finger caused by a sharp, squared off trigger tip?

 

Hey LUMPY:  ?     Double check your firing pin situation.   When the action of the 94 is closed and the hammer is

all the way down (forward), the front of the FP is protruding from the front of the bolt.   If there is a chambered

round, the FP is pushing against the primer.

Am I missing something?

 

1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

 

How is the 1 piece FP unsafe?

M/94, w/1 piece FP-The FP is not touching the primer when the hammer is all the way down on a chambered rnd

A Ruger w/o the t'bar lets the FP touch the primer, when the hammer is down-That is the concern......

OLG

 

..........Widder

 

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Yul:

I'd like to hear the story about SASS's move to New Mexico ?!?

sounds like a story like the Baltimore Colts.....full of intrigue and the cover of night !

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Just now, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

All this 'law suit' talk has got me thinking.

 

If someone can be sued because of an

accident with a modified firearm,

can an owner of a Non-modified (Factory spec'd) firearm sue the manufacturer for a

punctured finger caused by a sharp, squared off trigger tip?

 

Hey LUMPY:  ?     Double check your firing pin situation.   When the action of the 94 is closed and the hammer is

all the way down (forward), the front of the FP is protruding from the front of the bolt.   If there is a chambered

round, the FP is pushing against the primer.

Am I missing something?

 

 

..........Widder

 

The 3 I have in our M/94's, the nose is flush to the breechface when the hammer is down.

These 3 FP I have been run'n for about 5 years now(bought the 3 on the same order), and came from Cowboys and Indians store.

Maybe there was a change in FP specs?......:huh:

http://cowboysandindianstore.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=19

OLG

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, T-Square said:

Yul:

I'd like to hear the story about SASS's move to New Mexico ?!?

sounds like a story like the Baltimore Colts.....full of intrigue and the cover of night !

Very similar to the Colts leaving Baltimore, or so I’m told. Ask any of the old timers up at The Cowboys in Norco and you’ll get an earful. Many won’t make the journey to EOT because of the move and the way it was carried out. It came about before my time and I kinda like going to New Mexico for EOT, going to EOT at Norco would be closer but not nearly as nice, IMHO, of course, fighting freeway traffic ain’t my kind of having fun.

Edited by Yul Lose

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3 hours ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

I guess I fail to understand the logic where removing the transfer bar on a Ruger is dangerous but installing a one piece firing pin in a Marlin isn’t. 

 

 

You sir need to mind your own business concerning Marlins. 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

So an old women buys a coffee at McDonalds, can we all agree that coffee is hot, she spills it on her, she sues and..........she gets a payout. Never should have happened.

That's not the whole of it: 

So McD's insurance company actually wins the lawsuit but pays out $80,000 in legal fees.  The old woman, as the loser, doesn't have any assets from which McD can  recover their legal fees.  

OR--- McD's insurance company simply settles the suit.  Either way the company raises McD's premiums world-wide to redeem costs.  

Bottom line:  Get over any mental Perry Mason theatrics.  WIN OR LOSE, you aren't going to come out at present-day $ parity if you get sued.  So don't get caught thinking your principles or arguments are enough to win and survive it financially.   Due diligence beforehand is going to be your best shot to keep what you have.  You have to AVOID THE ACCIDENT in the first place, wherever possible.  

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale

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