Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Shooting Bull

How can you shoot this?

Recommended Posts

Since this seems to be stalling out at only 9 pages I'll ask another question.  Suppose the instructions said put 3 consecutive shots on each target, place the 10th round on any target, would 111-333-222-2 be ok? What do you think Tennessee?:)

 

Randy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

As established by you? I'm going to need a better source. 

 

I have the rules of English grammar to base my position on.....you have?

 

Stan

Well, we were civilized until then I think. Since you are so fluent with grammar; you will realize what I said was it was "covered" a few pages back. That was my attempt to NOT be rude and let you know the same argument was made a while back. Had you maybe looked through the pages you would have realized that without having to regurgitate it. My and I'm sure a few others' belief is the  comma or the word then makes little to no difference. 

 

In addition to learning how to count in school; I also learned that a comma is used as a pause in a sentence as well as to separate a list within a sentence.  Lets break that last part down. It separates a list within a sentence. What does that mean? It means the comma separates the items, not replace the prior. That means they all are included. I believe you listed it this way:

1) triple tap targets in any order

2) single tap the center target

You say these were done. I say they were NOT. That comma doesn't negate the first item in the list. When you are finished shooting, did you triple tap the center target? No, you did not. You quad tapped it. Again, being fluent in grammar you know the comma SEPARATES a list within a sentence, not draw an invisible line on a target.

You ask what I have on my side. I say common sense. And I might jist have a smudge o that grammers too.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

You keep saying that as though it supports your point. I believe it does the opposite.  Count from zero to four using whole numbers. 1-2-3-4. They accumulated. You had to have the one before you could have the two. You had to have the two before you could have the three. And so on. But the next number does not erase the previous number. That’s the opposite of accumulation. 

Look at it this way, tell me what you think. 

Instructions say triple tap:

1 hit good

2 hit good

3 hit good

4 hit P

Instructions say no double taps:

1 hit good

2 hit P

3 hit still a P cause you cant remediate a P no matter what you do after you get it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

You keep saying that as though it supports your point. I believe it does the opposite.  Count from zero to four using whole numbers. 1-2-3-4. They accumulated. You had to have the one before you could have the two. You had to have the two before you could have the three. And so on. But the next number does not erase the previous number. That’s the opposite of accumulation. 

And I do see what you are saying. Itd be golden if not for that fourth shot. I agree that the next number doesnt erase the first number, it accumulates. Thats where my cumulative comes in. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

47 minutes ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

Since this seems to be stalling out at only 9 pages I'll ask another question.  Suppose the instructions said put 3 consecutive shots on each target, place the 10th round on any target, would 111-333-222-2 be ok? What do you think Tennessee?:)

 

Randy

ohmy@2x.png.9b01eeca9e847a6c68af9e0061d4be91.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

I understand about the quad tap.  But the instructions say triple-tap and then says where the 10th round goes.  So some target will get 4 shoots.  And since  instructions say "any order" and no statement prohibiting a quad-tap, the shooter should be allowed any order.

 

So the problem is not merely the definition of a triple-tap but what to do with further instructions for the 10th round.  Can the stage writer do as he pleases or is he now locked in since he said triple-tap.  To me, the stage writer can do as they like - just make it as clear as possible.  And sometimes they want to leave options for the shooter so they don't spell out each step.  Those who demand that target 2 not be tripled last are saying that "any order" has been prohibited without the instructions actually saying that.

 

 

By the way, I think it would probably be as fast or faster to just triple-tap 1,2,3, then go back to target 2 for the final. 

If you triple-tap 1, 3, 2 then complete the stage instructions as written, it would be possibly slower.  But you had to jump over target 2in the process.  So for most of us, it would not be an advantage, but that's now what we are discussing.

Still no adequate response about this.

Remember the instructions did NOT say you could not hit the target a 4th time, in fact it required it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

I understand about the quad tap.  But the instructions say triple-tap and then says where the 10th round goes. So some target will get 4 shoots. 

Yes, but the object is to not make the 4 shots consecutive. As long as the single tap is separated from the triple tap, then no P.

Quote

 

And since  instructions say "any order" and no statement prohibiting a quad-tap, the shooter should be allowed any order.

"Any order" meaning the triple taps can go on whichever target you want, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd so long as your single tap doesnt turn one of them into a quad tap. Since, the 2nd part of the instructions say single tap the 2nd target with the 10th round you know you cant shoot the 2nd targets triple tap last. But you could shoot it 1st or 2nd. 

There is also no statement that prohibits a double tap or a 5 tap. It is implied by calling out a triple and a single tap. We would need a book for a stage description to eliminate everything you're not allowed to do on each stage.

I hope that makes sense and describes my point.

 

Sorry Marauder, I think that was about the time I had my cheeseburger mix up and I was rolling laughing and forgot to reply.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

The instructions don't say SINGLE tap  the center target. The instructions say put the 10th round on the center target.

 

How about We'll just agree to disagree and when you come to match I run you'll play by my rules and when I go to a march you run I'll play by your rules. 

 

Unless the of course the ROC makes a ruling....which may or may not happen. I can live with either ruling as the smart way to shoot it is 1,1,1,2,2,2,3,3,3,2. 

 

Stan

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Per Tennessee's logic (and some others), you cannot complete the stage clean.Here are the rules:

You must shoot 10 rounds

You must triple-tap the targets - that means 3 hits and only 3 hits.  So if you hit any of the targets again, you have hit it 4 times and would get a P. 

The only way to avoid that is to miss the last shot.  Then the miss cannot result in a P.

 

Remember, it is cumulative, so you cannot shoot a target more than 3 times.  It said triple-tap and triple means  3 - no more and no less.  Tennessee has stated that very clearly over and over. 

 

We often see stages where you shoot at 3 targets with two 2-1-2 sweeps.  Sometimes the stage says you must start each sweep on the same end.  Other times the stages often say, starting on either end, shoot a 2-1-2 sweep, repeat instructions. Per the new rules, you must start on the same side each time even though the stage instructions say otherwise.

 

I hope that is clear now...  It is important to know which instructions to ignore.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(4) consecutive shots on the same target would be a quad-tap. Shooting any other target and then coming back to a target that had been hit with 3 consecutive shots would not be a quad-tap but rather a triple tap followed by a single tap, after having engaged a different target in between target engagements.

 

et 111-222-333-2 = 10 shots no P, no M.

 

It would not matter to me which way a posse was permitted to shoot this particular scenario as long as all shooters understood the parameters of what would or would not constitute a quad-tap. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

TN,

I think what you are saying is that you can't eat the watermelon without consuming the 'water' part also.

 

I think what some are saying is that just because you eat watermelon doesn't mean you have to eat the rind

with it to enjoy the watermelon.

 

Now, that should clear all this up.

 

;)

 

..........Widder

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Stan, come on up and shoot with me, you can shoot the stage the way it was written and not an interpretation of the stage writers intent.

 

1) This would have been covered in the PM walk through

2) It also would have been written different if the writer had wanted to specify how it was shot such as Triple tap sweep from either end, last round on target 2. of Triple tap each target starting with target 2, last round on target 2

3) 111, 333, 222, 2 satisfies the stage instructions,

4) Next shooter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/11/2018 at 12:33 AM, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

I'll see if I can get a consensus from the ROC...at this point, my personal opinion would be just that; not representing the ROC.

Given the local/regional variations of any "stage convention" for such a scenario, I'm thinking that a specifically written stage instruction re engagement options would be advised.

 

 

There is no doubt that the question is regarding how to score a shooter hitting the last target 4X consecutively.

 

Consensus........haha :lol: 

 

 Majority.........50/50 ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

Look at it this way, tell me what you think. 

Instructions say triple tap:

1 hit good

2 hit good

3 hit good

4 hit P

Instructions say no double taps:

1 hit good

2 hit P

3 hit still a P cause you cant remediate a P no matter what you do after you get it.

 

Once again you’re proving my point, not yours. The instant you hit that target a second time you had in fact double tapped it. The third shot didn’t erase it. 

 

The instant a shooter placed the third shot on the center target they had in fact triple tapped it in compliance with the stage instructions. The tenth shot on that target didn’t erase it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

Once again you’re proving my point, not yours. The instant you hit that target a second time you had in fact double tapped it. The third shot didn’t erase it. 

Yes because you cannot erase a P.

4 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

The instant a shooter placed the third shot on the center target they had in fact triple tapped it in compliance with the stage instructions. The tenth shot on that target didn’t erase it. 

Thay had indeed triple tapped it until the 4th shot. When they shot it the 4th time made a P. You can erase a good thing with another shot; but, not a P.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I said this was going 10 pages, I was kidding.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

only 10 pages.........WOWSER! :lol:

{ Reminds me of politicians at this point! }

 

God help us if this discussion was related to what is, is  ;)

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

Yes because you cannot erase a P.

Thay had indeed triple tapped it until the 4th shot. When they shot it the 4th time made a P. You can erase a good thing with another shot; but, not a P.

 

I'm not talking about the P, I'm talking about the triple tap.  The instant the third consecutive shot hit the target the triple tap was done.  You can't erase it. 

 

I'm not sure if this has been asked yet so I will.  If the instructions say, "Quad tap target, no triple taps"  Can you do that? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Through out these 10 pages I've seen the phrase "any order" being used like it is a free pass to allow creativity to shoot how you would like.

Using that creativity and since there seems to be no clear definition of single tap, double tap, triple tap, quad tap, etc., I should be able to shoot this string; 1,2,3, 1,2,3 1,2,3, 2 since i have now hit each target 3 times (triple) and 10th shot on target 2. The instructions did not say that all 3 shots had to be consecutive just triple tap.

 

I see the "logic" of both sides, but "to me", since triple tap was used instead of at least 3 times each, when the 4th consecutive shot was placed on target 2, you earned the "p" if;

 

1st shot -    single tap

2nd shot - double tap

3rd shot -  triple tap

4th shot -  quad tap

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

I'm not talking about the P, I'm talking about the triple tap.  The instant the third consecutive shot hit the target the triple tap was done.  You can't erase it. 

 

I'm not sure if this has been asked yet so I will.  If the instructions say, "Quad tap target, no triple taps"  Can you do that? 

You used the 1st P as a point. I'm telling you the difference in the 2. You cant erase a P. But you can erase a good thing like the triple tap. If this was not the case, it would be impossible to fire anything other than a single tap. Shots are cumulative.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Double Barrel, SASS 34765 said:

Through out these 10 pages I've seen the phrase "any order" being used like it is a free pass to allow creativity to shoot how you would like.

Using that creativity and since there seems to be no clear definition of single tap, double tap, triple tap, quad tap, etc., I should be able to shoot this string; 1,2,3, 1,2,3 1,2,3, 2 since i have now hit each target 3 times (triple) and 10th shot on target 2. The instructions did not say that all 3 shots had to be consecutive just triple tap.

 

I see the "logic" of both sides, but "to me", since triple tap was used instead of at least 3 times each, when the 4th consecutive shot was placed on target 2, you earned the "p" if;

 

1st shot -    single tap

2nd shot - double tap

3rd shot -  triple tap

4th shot -  quad tap

 

 

That's not true.  We do have clear definitions of those.  They are CONSECUTIVE shots on a single target.  We know that from things like the Progressive (Lawrence Welk) Sweep. (Or maybe I should go start another thread so we can discuss that :lol: )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

Or maybe I should go start another thread so we can discuss that :lol: 

 

Why not-Winter is a com'n.  :lol::P

OLG

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Again, using the logic in favor of a P, think of this stage.

Shoot the three targets 3 times each.  Place the last round on any target.

 

Since the instructions say 3 rounds each, you cannot hit another target. Right?

Or does the second sentence override that?  Yes, or no?

  • If no, then you must not hit another target since the count would be greater than 3.
  • If yes, then you may hit the final target.

 

To say it another way,  the stage says triple-tap in any order.  The stage writer obviously allows any order. That seems clear.  You must triple-tap, no doubt.

 

But are saying  saying that the writer contradicted themselves when they added the last shot - that it is not allowed to be any order even if it is stated. 

 

I believe the stage writer has that right.

 

How many matches have you shot where they had the 2-1- on three targets starting on either end each time? 

I've seen it a lot and folks have not called a P when it was shot sweeping forth and back, 2-1-4-1-2 since it was allowed in the instructions.

 

This has been a fascinating discussion and a demonstration of how we need our schools to do a much better job of teaching logic..

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

 

How many matches have you shot where they had the 2-1-2 on three targets starting on either end each time? 

I've seen it a lot and folks have not called a P when it was shot sweeping forth and back, 2-1-4-1-2 since it was allowed in the instructions.

 

 

At our club?? On this scenario??

Over half the shooters will ask "can we??"

If we get a "Yes you can" most every shooter will shoot it 2-1-4-1-2

If we get a "No you can't " 2 sweeps.. 2-1-2...2-1-2

 

;) Thinkin' one little question..:rolleyes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

Again, using the logic in favor of a P, think of this stage.

Shoot the three targets 3 times each.  Place the last round on any target.

 

Since the instructions say 3 rounds each, you cannot hit another target. Right?

Or does the second sentence override that?  Yes, or no?

  • If no, then you must not hit another target since the count would be greater than 3.
  • If yes, then you may hit the final target.

 

To say it another way,  the stage says triple-tap in any order.  The stage writer obviously allows any order. That seems clear.  You must triple-tap, no doubt.

 

But are saying  saying that the writer contradicted themselves when they added the last shot - that it is not allowed to be any order even if it is stated. 

 

I believe the stage writer has that right.

 

How many matches have you shot where they had the 2-1- on three targets starting on either end each time? 

I've seen it a lot and folks have not called a P when it was shot sweeping forth and back, 2-1-4-1-2 since it was allowed in the instructions.

 

This has been a fascinating discussion and a demonstration of how we need our schools to do a much better job of teaching logic..

 

Marauder, you're getting sidetracked. Let's settle the stage we're on first before we move on to another one. I totally agree with you about the importance of teaching logic in school, but it wouldn't hurt if they did a little better in math so everybody would know the difference in a triple tap and a quad tap.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Tennessee williams said:

Marauder, you're getting sidetracked. Let's settle the stage we're on first before we move on to another one. I totally agree with you about the importance of teaching logic in school, but it wouldn't hurt if they did a little better in math so everybody would know the difference in a triple tap and a quad tap.

 

 

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say we all know the difference.  Where we disagree is whether or not the quad erases the triple for the purposes of these specific stage instructions. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So you wish to dodge my questions?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

10 pages of this? Embarrassing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Marauder,

I don't think he was dodging your questions. When I read your last post it sounds like you're asking apples and oranges questions and trying to get a peach of an answer. :)

 

1 hour ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

Shoot the three targets 3 times each.  Place the last round on any target.

apples

 

1 hour ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

To say it another way,  the stage says triple-tap in any order.

oranges

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is the principle of the issue if not the exact same example.  But my example still fits and is not apples and oranges.  It is how many times can you hit a target.

 

So, yes that is a way for to dodge answering the question.  When you are asked a valid question, not answering is - not answering. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With thousands of stages shot, many hundreds as a stage writer, a few hundred as a match director, and with 35 years into this game, I've learned at least one thing, do NOT write or interpret a stage like an engineer.  Someone will come along that thinks further outside the box than you can imagine.*  Those shooting this game for a long time will tell you, when the shooter is given some degree of latitude in target engagement, (like, "in any order)", a very wide latitude in interpretation will be afforded the shooter in solving the scenario.    Sometimes it becomes a spotters nightmare, but... that's not the shooter's problem to solve, hitting the targets in accordance with the stage instructions is... doin' so in less time than anyone else makes them a "winner".

 

Take a simple 5 target array, in a straight line across the bay, little to no variation in size or distance and stage instructions that simply say:  "Sweep the targets twice from either direction"  I know of few experienced shooters that won't do one sweep from the left, or right, then do their 2nd in the opposite direction.  Yes, it means they double tapped that end target.  But... that wasn't prohibited in the instructions, was it?

 

Nor was a quadruple tap prohibited in the OPs instructions.  

 

 

 

*  In fact, at least one very slow, deliberate, former bulls-eye shooter, who can remain nameless, finds his challenge in doing just that!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Griff said:

With thousands of stages shot, many hundreds as a stage writer, a few hundred as a match director, and with 35 years into this game, I've learned at least one thing, do NOT write or interpret a stage like an engineer.  Someone will come along that thinks further outside the box than you can imagine.  Those shooting this game for a long time will tell you, when the shooter is given some degree of latitude in target engagement, (like, "in any order)", a very wide latitude in interpretation will be afforded the shooter in solving the scenario.    Sometimes it becomes a spotters nightmare, but... that's not the shooter's problem to solve, hitting the targets in accordance with the stage instructions is... doin' so in less time than anyone else makes them a "winner".

 

Take a simple 5 target array, in a straight line across the bay, little to no variation in size or distance and stage instructions that simply say:  "Sweep the targets twice from either direction"  I know of few experienced shooters that won't do one sweep from the left, or right, then do their 2nd in the opposite direction.  Yes, it means they double tapped that end target.  But... that wasn't prohibited in the instructions, was it?

 

Nor was a quadruple tap prohibited in the OPs instructions.  

 

They didn't prohibit a dump on one target either. Smell what I'm cooking? I do understand your thought process, but I don't think you can go by what is prohibited.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.