SAA: Why not carry 6 with the firing pin between case rims?

[Hellgate #3302 L]

I understand the very logical safety reasons for carrying 5 loaded chambers in a SAA and having the hammer down on an empty chamber. John Wayne says so. When in the field I've carried my single action with the hammer all the way down with the firing pin protruding through the frame and resting between the cartridge rims (38/357). You put the gun on half cock, rotate the cylinder flute under the top strap and let the hammer down between cartridges. The firing pin stops rotation of the cylinder until it is pulled back for cocking. I've never read anything regarding this form of carry for a 6 shooter. How god-awful is it to carry like that? I'm not advocating this for SASS. I was just wondering if it has been tried and abandoned or just not thought of?

[Nickel City Dude]

I have a pair of Ruger Bisleys that I use for Cowboy reenacting and shooting blanks.  When I do this I always load all six chambers because the Rugers have a transfer bar and the hammer is not resting on the firing pin.  This is a perfectly safe thing to do but SASS requires that the hammer be down on and empty or fired chamber so this is how I load for SASS.

Lots of black powder pistol shooters let the hammer down on the notch between chambers if they are provided.

Also on most SAA Colt clones there is a ¼ notch (cock) on the hammer/tumbler, this could also be used if you want to carry all chambers loaded.

[Doc Shapiro]

I have done this when shooting my Vaquero's at a Steel Challenge match.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy

 

If you do this with a Colt chambered for 45 Colt, there is not enough room between the cartridge cases for the firing pin to securely keep the cylinder from rotating. Draw an imaginary circle through the primers on this photo. The firing pin will be resting on that circle. I have experimented with this. The radius of the firing pin is resting on the chamfers of the case rims. This allows the firing pin to ride up over the rims if an effort is made to rotate the cylinder. It will work with smaller cases, such as 357Mag/38 Sp. Maybe so with 44 Special. But it is not reliable with 45 Colts in a Colt.

 

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

My granddad did it on more than one occasion, when expecting things to get nasty on the Northern plains pre 1900 ...

He also chambered a round, put the hammer on half cock and added another round to the tube ...

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

1 hour ago, Nickel City Dude said:

Also on most SAA Colt clones there is a ¼ notch (cock) on the hammer/tumbler, this could also be used if you want to carry all chambers loaded.

 

ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!!!!!

 

The so called 'safety cock' notch on the hammer of a Colt is very thin. A strong blow to the hammer spur, such as dropping the gun on the hammer will most likely result in the notch or the sear shearing off and the gun discharging. This has been demonstrated over and over again.

 

Notice how thin the tip of the sear is on this Colt trigger. It would not take much to shear it off. The upper arrow points tothe 'safety cock' notch on the hammer It would not take a whole lot to shear it off either. In fact, if you put the hammer to 'safety cock' and pull hard enough on the trigger you can break the sear right off.

 

 

 

 

 

All this is why Ruger changed the design of their single action revolvers back in 1970s. Here is the hammer from an old Three Screw 44 Magnum Blackhawk. Same basic design as the Colt hammer.

 

 

 

 

 

Here are the bolt, hand, and trigger. Although the sear on the Ruger trigger is a bit more robust than the Colt trigger, Ruger lost enough lawsuits that they completely designed their line of single action revolvers in the 1970s to avoid any more lawsuits.

 

 

 

[Nickel City Dude]

DJ

thanks for the pictures.  I can see now why it is not a good idea to use the 1/4 cock.   But if one insists on loading all 6 it would be better to use the 1/4 cock than leaving it down on a live round.

[Duffield, SASS #23454]

As a young boy I knew several old men from the horseback era.  Two of them had scars caused (when saddling a horse) by having a stirrup fall and hit the hammer on their Colt when the hammer was in the "safety notch."  They recommended against loading six.

 

Duffield

[Lead Friend, SASS #53635]

44 minutes ago, Duffield, SASS #23454 said:

As a young boy I knew several old men from the horseback era.  Two of them had scars caused (when saddling a horse) by having a stirrup fall and hit the hammer on their Colt when the hammer was in the "safety notch."  They recommended against loading six.

 

Duffield

 

Now that’s s good story.

[Nickel City Dude]

Of course the new Uberti safety hammers would prevent a round from going off because the firing pin does not contact the primer unless the trigger is pulled at the same time the hammer is going down.

[Rye Miles #13621]

3 minutes ago, Nickel City Dude said:

Of course the new Uberti safety hammers would prevent a round from going off because the firing pin does not contact the primer unless the trigger is pulled at the same time the hammer is going down.

I have one and yes it is safe to carry six!

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

Consider this.  With the hammer down on an empty chamber it is 100% impossible to have an accidental discharge.   With any other method, on a Colt or traditionally designed clone, there is a chance you can have one.  Not worth the risk.  The Colt is not a Remington with a between the chamber safety notch.  It is not a Ruger with a transfer bar.  It is a Colt.  Use it the way it's safe to do so.  You will never regret it.

 

Besides, if you can't solve your problem with 5 shots, 6 probably won't help you.

[Yul Lose]

When I was a ute many moons ago my family was living in Creede, Colorado where my dad worked in the mines. Creede was and is a very small town and in the fall hunting season is a big thing. Once a week the Pepsi truck would come into town and the Pepsi Guy as he was called would stop at all of the Pepsi machines and stores to restock Pepsi products and everybody knew him, he was a really nice man. He was also a hunter and one Monday morning we showed up to school and were informed that the Pepsi man had been killed in a hunting accident. According to the game warden at the time the Pepsi guy was out hunting elk and was carrying a Ruger revolver in a holster on his belt and when he bent over to retrieve something that he had dropped the revolver fell out of the holster and discharged when it hit the ground. IIRC he bled to death from a wound to the leg that severed the femoral artery. I tried to Google the story but evidently it was not archived. 

[watab kid]

why ?? just askin , most stages call for two pistols [revolvers ] loaded with five rounds , im might be missing something here - but why load six ?

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

2 hours ago, watab kid said:

why ?? just askin , most stages call for two pistols [revolvers ] loaded with five rounds , im might be missing something here - but why load six ?

You’re putting the cart before the horse. The reason we only shoot five is because we only load five. If we loaded six, we would shoot six. Just like in wild bunch they shot five in a mag for years until recently switching to seven. 

 

Not that I’m for changing anything. Five works just fine. I would hate to have to choose between shooting six in a ruger or loading one in the clock with my colt. I’d still choose the colt, but my times would be slower than they already are. 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

I don't understand. If you want to shoot 6, call for loading the sixth during the stage.

 

There, problem solved.

 

Phantom

[Rye Miles #13621]

We had a stage yesterday at Tusco where you started off with your pistol in hand, barrel touching face down on the table and your loading gate open, round in one hand empty chamber at the ready. ATB you loaded the sixth round and got to shootin'! Pretty cool!

[Captain Bill Burt]

12 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

We had a stage yesterday at Tusco where you started off with your pistol in hand, barrel touching face down on the table and your loading gate open, round in one hand empty chamber at the ready. ATB you loaded the sixth round and got to shootin'! Pretty cool!

I’ve never liked the idea of a pistol reload on the clock, but if it has to be done that seems like a good way to do it. Could your pistol be on half cock if needed?

[Rye Miles #13621]

10 hours ago, watab kid said:

why ?? just askin , most stages call for two pistols [revolvers ] loaded with five rounds , im might be missing something here - but why load six ?

The OP was just asking about carrying six instead of Five. He says he's NOT advocating this for SASS! He's talking about everyday carry or in the woods etc.

[Rye Miles #13621]

2 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I’ve never liked the idea of a pistol reload on the clock, but if it has to be done that seems like a good way to do it. Could your pistol be on half cock if needed?

Yes, on half cock was okay with Colts and Clones. 

[Hellgate #3302 L]

I am impressed and grateful for all the interest in my query (especially the photography). When I got up this AM and checked my in-box I thought, holy crap! There's tons of comments. I was a little apprehensive, thinking of being flamed for even mentioning six shot carrying. I can see there are a lot of polite, talented, informed folks infused with common sense here on the Wire. I thank you all for the fine discussion. It looks like the firing pin between the rims on a .357 will survive the drop test and be reasonably safe for the field. Again, thanks all.

[Doc Shapiro]

13 minutes ago, Hellgate #3302 L said:

I am impressed and grateful for all the interest in my query (especially the photography). When I got up this AM and checked my in-box I thought, holy crap! There's tons of comments. I was a little apprehensive, thinking of being flamed for even mentioning six shot carrying. I can see there are a lot of polite, talented, informed folks infused with common sense here on the Wire. I thank you all for the fine discussion. It looks like the firing pin between the rims on a .357 will survive the drop test and be reasonably safe for the field. Again, thanks all.

 

You do run the risk of breaking the firing pin. 

 

If you're carrying in the field and think 5 shots won't be enough, I would respectfully suggest that you re-evaluate your choice of weapon.  A DA revolver might be a better choice.

[Hellgate #3302 L]

I mostly carry for finishing a deer, elk or the occasional porcupine.

[Doc Shapiro]

4 minutes ago, Hellgate #3302 L said:

I mostly carry for finishing a deer, elk or the occasional porcupine.

 

For that, 5 would be plenty.  Have a few reloads on your belt.  It's not worth the risk of damaging the gun.  That's my opinion anyway.

[Sparky Nelson]

13 minutes ago, Doc Shapiro said:

You do run the risk of breaking the firing pin.

 

I was going to ask about that. I've never owned a Colt. But I thought I'd heard of a revolver (may have been another make) where the firing pin could be broken off of the hammer.

 

A cylinder has a fair amount of mass to it, so if something got it moving it could conceivably shear off the tip of the firing pin. Also, isn't it true that if the cylinder's between chambers, there's nothing holding it stationary except the firing pin itself?

 

Much as I like tradition, I'll stick with my Rugers.

[Sixgun Sheridan]

18 hours ago, Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 said:

My granddad did it on more than one occasion, when expecting things to get nasty on the Northern plains pre 1900 ...

He also chambered a round, put the hammer on half cock and added another round to the tube ...

 

Jabez Cowboy

 

When trouble is imminent and your odds of being perforated on purpose exceed that of being perforated on accident, I can understand. In all other situations Safety First.

[Hellgate #3302 L]

Good points.

[Trailrider #896]

17 hours ago, Yul Lose said:

When I was a ute many moons ago my family was living in Creede, Colorado where my dad worked in the mines. Creede was and is a very small town and in the fall hunting season is a big thing. Once a week the Pepsi truck would come into town and the Pepsi Guy as he was called would stop at all of the Pepsi machines and stores to restock Pepsi products and everybody knew him, he was a really nice man. He was also a hunter and one Monday morning we showed up to school and were informed that the Pepsi man had been killed in a hunting accident. According to the game warden at the time the Pepsi guy was out hunting elk and was carrying a Ruger revolver in a holster on his belt and when he bent over to retrieve something that he had dropped the revolver fell out of the holster and discharged when it hit the ground. IIRC he bled to death from a wound to the leg that severed the femoral artery. I tried to Google the story but evidently is was not archived. 

That "Ruger" must have been a pre-transfer-bar model.  He was also packing it with the hammer down on a live round or on the Colt's-type half-cock!  In addition, he had a "holster failure", with no means of keeping the gun in the holster, e.g., a hammer thong, retention strap, full or half-flap, etc.  A real shame!  

Because so many of us, myself included, handle both Colt's-type and New Model Ruger's, we SHOULD get in the habit of loading only five rounds, leaving the hammer down on an empty chamber Colt's: Load one, skip one, load four, pull the hammer to full cock and let it down GENTLY and fully to the empty chamber.  New Model Ruger's: Load one, skip one, load four, close the loading gate and rotate the cylinder clockwise until the empty chamber is under the hammer.  Load six in a Colt's gun ONLY if you are intentionally going into "a serious social situation" as the late, great Bill Jordon would say, in which case, if you had any anticipation of such a situation, you probably should choose a different gun!

[Rattlesnake Slim]

I'll have to admit that when I carry one of my Vaqueros while on my ATV that it feels very strange to load all six!

[Nasty Newt # 7365]

7 hours ago, Sixgun Sheridan said:

 

When trouble is imminent and your odds of being perforated on purpose exceed that of being perforated on accident, I can understand. In all other situations Safety First.

John Wayne to Ron Howard in "The Shootist":  "If your gut tells you to load six, load six."

[Three Foot Johnson]

Awfully close...

[Boomstick Bruce]

We had a member over on the 1858 Remington forum that dropped one of his 58's in the kitchen and it went off and blew a hole through his hand.

[Yul Lose]

46 minutes ago, Boomstick Bruce said:

We had a member over on the 1858 Remington forum that dropped one of his 58's in the kitchen and it went off and blew a hole through his hand.

I’m betting his wife was a bit upset.

[Three Foot Johnson]

I'd name that gun "Rex O'Herlihan". 

[LostVaquero]

On 05/06/2018 at 4:47 AM, Rye Miles #13621 said:

We had a stage yesterday at Tusco where you started off with your pistol in hand, barrel touching face down on the table and your loading gate open, round in one hand empty chamber at the ready. ATB you loaded the sixth round and got to shootin'! Pretty cool!

Mine do not have loading gates