Why I give reshoots

[diablo slim]

There is another thread about re-shoots and I want to give my take on this.

Yes I have given and taken a re-shoot at our club on occasion.I recently had

a sqib in my rifle on the 2or 3rd round and after struggling with it for a short

time our Range officer said "why dont you just shoot it over?" No one realized it was a sqib till I got it to the unloading table...I cleared it got back in line

and re-shot the stage.I was questioned about this by another shooter from a visiting club and they said I guess thats all right as long as you do that for everyone

I have been telling that to everyone at the safety meeting (when I can Remember)

before the match.Any penalty is carried over and added to the re-shoot.

I know this will rub a lot of shooters the wrong way ( Play by SASS rules)But I

do not like to see a shooter travel sometimes over 2-3 hrs to come and shoot

against our club members and loose on the first stage because of a minor

malfunction of equipment or ammo. I want to beat you fair and square with you

being able to shoot your best game...I understand and explain this to new

shooters

that this would not happen at a state or regional level match.(I personally have

taken 9 misses in my rifle twice at the State level)My bad and It did not change

my standings in my category...

 

Anyway I had my say....flame resistant chaps are on have at it!

[Anvil Al #59168]

Have no problems with it at MONTHLY matches.

 

But at annual or above. NO WAY. At State or above. It just can't happen.

You have people traveling that far to compete. It needs to be fair and by the rules.

 

You give them on one posse. The other don't for the same thing. Equal shooters. Your guy

wins and that is not fair.

 

Again. Small monthly matches. I don't care.

 

Once you get passed that. if every posse went by the rules. Then everybody got a fair shake.

[diablo slim]

I would have no problem giving you a re-shoot AA...your going to beat me anyway...LOL

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Slim,

 

You mention state and above. I feel it should not happen at any annual!

 

I like seeing all rules followed. However, if it were a first-time shooter who needs all of the practice he/she can get, I might see allowing a reshoot at a monthly. A more experienced shooter, not so much.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

The rules help a lot, because they establish the same foundation for everyone, every time, every club location.

 

Otherwise, you have to be real careful not to give one shooter a reshoot that the rules don't support,and another shooter does not get it. That may just be a visitor and he may take away the impression that "home boys get reshoots, visitors don't"

 

I like to see monthlys run precisely to the SASS rules. Otherwise, EVERY posse marshal/TO/ etc at the club has to be in on the "secret decision" that some rules are not followed. It quickly becomes a bad path to follow for everyone at the club and everyone who visits. Too much work for me as a club official to explain the "everything except ....." rule exclusions!

 

Good luck, GJ

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Yep, train those club shooters the wrong way so when they get to a bigger shoot they can use the old "well, that's not the way we do it at our club" excuse.

[Cliff Hanger #3720LR]

You give a shooter a reshoot for an ammunition malfunction. You give every one on your posse the same option if they too have an ammunition malfunction.

 

There is no way you can guarantee that every posse will do the same. Now every other shooter not on this posse is a a disadvantage on the scoring.

Only way this works for everyone is to have a stage marshal is assigned to a specific stage and who makes sure all shooters get the same treatment on their stage.

 

Then it doesn't matter if one stage gives reshoots and on another it doesn't. Each stage will be equal to all shooters, not just a single posse that treats all it's shooters the same.

 

Whether its a monthly match, a state match, a regional, a national or the world championships, all rules need to be followed and applied as written.

 

I know it can be hard to watch a shooter have a bad day and not want to help them by giving them a reshoot so they can correct bad ammunition, jammed gun or what ever causes things to go wrong for a shooter. But doing so takes away from shooters who do not have these issues. They made sure to have ammunition that works. They have made sure their guns function and will get through a complete match without failure. They came prepared.

 

Yes it's hard to penalize a bad day. But penalizing those who do not have a bad day by allowing the reshoot for other than stage failures, timer failures and interference, etc. is not doing any one any favors.

 

Play by the rules. Play by the rules for everyone. This is the only way to make it fair for all.

 

As a counter or timer, I do not give penalties.

I keep count of penalties earned.

Nothing more and nothing less.

And there are times I do feel really bad for a shooter when things go wrong.

--------------------

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

 

 

I do not like to see a shooter travel sometimes over 2-3 hrs to come and shoot

against our club members and lose on the first stage because of a minor

malfunction of equipment or ammo.

That visitor lost because he was not sufficiently prepared to shoot in a competition. That is part of the game. We go out of our way to help a shooter by offering guns, ammo, assistance, but once he shoots the stage, he's shot it. You are not being "a hard a##" by saying, "Nope, no reshoot. Sorry you had a squib." But, here's a squib rod, or here's a box of my ammo.

 

Reshooting it to let him avoid the penalites that HE earned is indeed diminishing the efforts and scores of everyone else.

 

Don't put yourself in the position of bending the rules for one shooter. It never works well in the long run.

 

Good luck, GJ

[diablo slim]

Maybe I should re think this my heart says one thing my head another...

[Madd Mike #8595]

I have no problem with that at monthly matches except

 

New shooters do monthly shoots for a long time(usually)

before they travel shoot

The first time they travel shoot, (often times it's for an annual larger type shoot)

if they have a problem, or more likely when someday they have a problem

and are not given the same graces, no matter the size shoot, they often say,

well back home I always get a reshoot for that, and often times their head feathers are a tad bit ruffled when they say it

Just like my macaw, does sometimes, when he feels deep down inside that he has been robbed

 

If you do not give them the reshoot ...... they can still go home and do the math when scores are posted

And say to themselves, if I had better ammo and not laid my rifle down with 30 seconds of (non fired misses) I wooda came in ?, instead of?

 

Perhaps that will help them to see that equipment, including ammo, is all part of the big picture

 

Sure do-do happens, just learn to step around doo when ever possible with out asking others to forgive your bad step in preparation, for any given known competition you may be headed to

 

Just an idea to ponder as I do :-)

[Pit Bull Tex]

The reshoots like that teach new shooters wrong.Go by the rules.

[Grizzly Dave]

For ammo problems the line has to be drawn somewhere, after the first round goes down range is the simplest place to draw it.

 

As others have said, at a match with more than one posse, it's difficult as best to stay consistent to rule variations.

 

Declare malfunction, hand it off or ground it and finish the stage, record time and such and next shooter. If the posse has the time and inclination the bad luck shooter could run the stage again for no recorded score.

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

While we do have rules and I believe they are somewhat flawed, TOs must do the same thing ever shooter in every club.

How does this happen? They all get the same training. But the TOs don't get the same training.

The failure I feel is the lack of use of the internet to use as a teaching tool.

The bulk of the material covered in both the RO1 and RO2 classes could be covered with videos and text online.

A little online Q&A, coaching, etc and of course the test and the class would be largely done.

The rest of learning how to be a good TO is simple experience and critique by more experienced TOs.

[Charlie Whiskers]

This past weekend we had 2 Airmen stop by. They're stationed at our AFB and totally new to the CAS game. They have both shot 3 gun and military weapons but they'd never even heard of CAS let alone seen it being done. They just moved here from other states and had come out to the complex to see what it's like and stopped by our range. That was Saturday. We talked to them quite a bit since we were just finishing for the day and invited them to come out Sunday and we'd set them up with what they'd need and let them try it. One of them on the 2nd stage had a high primer in one of the pistols and it locked up after only 2 rounds downrange. We explained we normally don't allow reshoots once a round goes downrange, but since they were brand new we polled the posse and all agreed to let him reshoot. They were only 12 of us shooting that day. By the days end they both had HUGE grins on their faces and sound like it's something they'd really enjoy getting into. Both were asking about what guns to buy. Our State shoot no. Our monthly shoots it depends on the circumstance.

 

I forgot to mention that we did tell them if they come shoot with us again and have a problem once a round is fired there won't be a reshoot. Yes we varied from the rules in this case, but we didn't want to discourage 2 potential new shooters by being a hard a$$ on the 1st time they tried it.

[diablo slim]

Thats a good Idea Hacker...

[Madd Mike #8595]

TO, MD, stage writing, counter:::::Training is very important, however this is a competition put on mostly by volunteers, TO's and everyone else that steps up to the plate are all volunteers

 

budgets have limits, for training volunteers,

not all volunteers may be the best choice no.

nO, Volunteer can remember it all, and spew it out in mere seconds on the range

 

Perhaps we deal with those facts the best we can while we enjoy each other's company in our short time on the range

 

Not giving (rule applied) reshoots will help the shooter more in the long run

if they really are ment to live the cowboy way of honor and consistency

 

I have learned far more for not getting a reshoot, than my short term feel good response by, getting a reshoot under the wrong circumstances, no matter how far I drove, flew or $$$$$$ spent

[Madd Mike #8595]

This past weekend we had 2 Airmen stop by. They're stationed at our AFB and totally new to the CAS game. They have both shot 3 gun and military weapons but they'd never even heard of CAS let alone seen it being done. They just moved here from other states and had come out to the complex to see what it's like and stopped by our range. That was Saturday. We talked to them quite a bit since we were just finishing for the day and invited them to come out Sunday and we'd set them up with what they'd need and let them try it. One of them on the 2nd stage had a high primer in one of the pistols and it locked up after only 2 rounds downrange. We explained we normally don't allow reshoots once a round goes downrange, but since they were brand new we polled the posse and all agreed to let him reshoot. They were only 12 of us shooting that day. By the days end they both had HUGE grins on their faces and sound like it's something they'd really enjoy getting into. Both were asking about what guns to buy. Our State shoot no. Our monthly shoots it depends on the circumstance.

Very good point

I have also seen the same new shooter given reshoots for high primers two years later, "still high primers" time to take the consequence

I know that is not what you mean, but that is a true story that I felt the need to share

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

The rules help a lot, because they establish the same foundation for everyone, every time, every club location.

 

Otherwise, you have to be real careful not to give one shooter a reshoot that the rules don't support,and another shooter does not get it. That may just be a visitor and he may take away the impression that "home boys get reshoots, visitors don't"

 

I like to see monthlys run precisely to the SASS rules. Otherwise, EVERY posse marshal/TO/ etc at the club has to be in on the "secret decision" that some rules are not followed. It quickly becomes a bad path to follow for everyone at the club and everyone who visits. Too much work for me as a club official to explain the "everything except ....." rule exclusions!

 

Good luck, GJ

That visitor lost because he was not sufficiently prepared to shoot in a competition. That is part of the game. We go out of our way to help a shooter by offering guns, ammo, assistance, but once he shoots the stage, he's shot it. You are not being "a hard a##" by saying, "Nope, no reshoot. Sorry you had a squib." But, here's a squib rod, or here's a box of my ammo.

 

Reshooting it to let him avoid the penalites that HE earned is indeed diminishing the efforts and scores of everyone else.

 

Don't put yourself in the position of bending the rules for one shooter. It never works well in the long run.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

Reckon I'm in this camp...

 

Rance

Think in' it's fair for everybody and every posse..

[Anvil Al #59168]

Maybe I should re think this my heart says one thing my head another...

 

 

You do good Diablo.

 

At your monthly matches I have heard you bring this up in the safety meeting.

 

And that everyone there was on the same page knowing that they could get a reshoot

for ammo or equipment problems.

 

You made sure everyone there was on the same page. If they did not. it was because they was not

at your safety meeting. And in that case should not have been shooting.

So I think that is fine.

 

As long as it is a monthly, everyone knows, and is on the same page. They all know, and are told that

this would not happen at another match, or a bigger match.

 

And that you/we don't give them at other matches or bigger matches.

Think it will work.

 

BUT.

 

We better make sure of the above or we do do the shooter a dis-service by not teaching them the proper way.

 

Think it is good many times for them to have to fight through it. LEARN how to finish a stage and get through it

the best they can.

That way when it does happen to them at a bigger match. They know more how to handle it.

 

If they know they have a reshoot. Most of them just stop right there or slow way down instead of learning how to

get through it the best way on the clock.

[Tex Jones, SASS 2263]

This past weekend we had 2 Airmen stop by. They're stationed at our AFB and totally new to the CAS game. They have both shot 3 gun and military weapons but they'd never even heard of CAS let alone seen it being done. They just moved here from other states and had come out to the complex to see what it's like and stopped by our range. That was Saturday. We talked to them quite a bit since we were just finishing for the day and invited them to come out Sunday and we'd set them up with what they'd need and let them try it. One of them on the 2nd stage had a high primer in one of the pistols and it locked up after only 2 rounds downrange. We explained we normally don't allow reshoots once a round goes downrange, but since they were brand new we polled the posse and all agreed to let him reshoot. They were only 12 of us shooting that day. By the days end they both had HUGE grins on their faces and sound like it's something they'd really enjoy getting into. Both were asking about what guns to buy. Our State shoot no. Our monthly shoots it depends on the circumstance.

 

I forgot to mention that we did tell them if they come shoot with us again and have a problem once a round is fired there won't be a reshoot. Yes we varied from the rules in this case, but we didn't want to discourage 2 potential new shooters by being a hard a$$ on the 1st time they tried it.

A case like that is/should be fairly obvious to deal with. The airmen weren't really competing as much as trying out some guns. But, as in many issues covered here on the Wire there are always many differing views as to the "best" way to deal with anything that comes up. What good would the Wire be if we all agreed on everything?

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

.I recently had

a sqib in my rifle on the 2or 3rd round and after struggling with it for a short

time our Range officer said "why dont you just shoot it over?" No one realized it was a sqib till I got it to the unloading table...I cleared it got back in line

 

 

Howdy Slim, lets say on the same day different stage......rifle is last, I already have three misses with my pistols, I shoot the shotgun, then when I get to the rifle it squibs after round eight.............Do I get a Re-shoot too?? More than likely it's gonna be two misses for unfired rounds-next shooter IMHO it's best to have someone with gun or ammo trouble to run a few rounds through the troubled gun after the stage is over....if they still have troubles loan them a gun or ammo to finish the match.......or if they want to reshoot a stage they can do it after the match is over, no problem, no score, no foul. Good Luck

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Funny how we cannot train shooters...

 

And we cannot allow flexibility because people are pretty stupid..

 

Have I got that correct or did I miss something? :D

 

=============================================

 

To me, what you originally suggest is fine - as long as:

• Your monthly match is not too full where reshoots will delay folks.
• You clearly use the situation to teach folks that they WILL NOT get reshoots every where
• Reshoots are NOT allowed at larger matches.

==============================================

 

P.S> This is IN the rules now, so if you truly understand the rules... It is allowed as a club option at monthly shoots.

 

So, yes, I also like to follow the rules.

[Ninety Caliber Al, 50218]

TO, MD, stage writing, counter:::::Training is very important, however this is a competition put on mostly by volunteers, TO's and everyone else that steps up to the plate are all volunteers

budgets have limits, for training volunteers,

not all volunteers may be the best choice no.

nO, Volunteer can remember it all, and spew it out in mere seconds on the range

Perhaps we deal with those facts the best we can while we enjoy each other's company in our short time on the range

Not giving (rule applied) reshoots will help the shooter more in the long run

if they really are ment to live the cowboy way of honor and consistency

I have learned far more for not getting a reshoot, than my short term feel good response by, getting a reshoot under the wrong circumstances, no matter how far I drove, flew or $$$$$$ spent

 

I totally agree. Home gun smithing along with failure to check my work cost me a clean match at a large Sate Shoot earlier this year. Learned my lesson though. Had to replace firing pins in my shotgun right before EOT. Took a special trip to the range to MAKE SURE I didn't screw anything up. Didn't want any equipment problems at my first EOT. I should add that I'm one of those that believe that some folks take this stuff WAY too seriously. I shoot for fun and fellowship , however, I still believe that the rules are the rules PERIOD. I've even in the past told a pard to lighten up cause unless he had a special deal, none of us is getting paid for this ,it's recreation. That said, we need a framework within which to operate, hence, rules.

YMMV.

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

I've seen monthly matches reshoots given for: all, after 1st round went down range.

Bad ammo

Jammed/busted firearm

Squibs

Didn't understand the direction and shot it another way, after procedure was given

Did not place firearms on right tables

Did not come with enough shotgun shells, or forgot there was a rifle reload and forgot to take an extra round

Then when reshoots are given, the shooter(s) (I've seen as many as 3 shooters given a reshoot on a stage, and get right back in line) gets back in line, rather then given everyone a chance to shoot their first time.

And yes, I've seen shooters ask for reshoots at above monthlies and can't understand because their club gives reshoots. MT

As to above monthlies, I've seen TO give reshoots to some shooters, but not everyone when firearms weren't properly placed on tables. (shotgun were rifle was to be, or vice versa. or pistols on table, and shooter leaves holstered). Do they hurt the end results, yes. A second place shooter would have been the State Champion instead of another if the re-shoot woukld not have been given.

[Anvil Al #59168]

Funny how we cannot train shooters...

 

And we cannot allow flexibility because people are pretty stupid..

 

Have I got that correct or did I miss something? :D

 

=============================================

 

 

 

You can tell them all day long. But you learn more by DOING than by being told.

 

Someone can tell you how to clear a jam. But how much will that help them on the clock at a big

match if you have never really done it.

Or would DOING IT on the clock at a monthly help them more.

 

Know a lot of top shooter in different shooting sports that will make there guns jam. Just to practice

clearing it on the clock.

 

Not that anyone is stupid. But the fact remains that you learn more by doing it.

 

I for one. Want to finish the stage however I can. Because things are not always going to go good at

a big one.

 

And this goes for the middle to lower end shooter than to the top shooters. As they have already practice

getting through when things go south.

[Swift Stoney 49735]

Tough topic. As Slim pointed out, it's a head vs. heart situation. You feel tons of empathy for the unfortunate shooter who had a case collapse in their rifle magazine and had to eat 9 rounds, or a squib in their pistol or shotgun or any other of the numerous boo boos that can happen. The easy way out is to fall back mindlessly on the rules and move on. At a state match or above, yes it has to be that way, no argument. If you are going to compete at that level you need to have all the oars in the water and be prepared. At a monthly match, I tend to agree with folks that say that is where training occurs. Some folks just do not have the opportunity to practice 2 or 3 times a week and work all the kinks out with equipment and ammo.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

I've seen monthly matches reshoots given for: all, after 1st round went down range.

Bad ammo

Jammed/busted firearm

Squibs

Didn't understand the direction and shot it another way, after procedure was given

Did not place firearms on right tables

Did not come with enough shotgun shells, or forgot there was a rifle reload and forgot to take an extra round

Then when reshoots are given, the shooter(s) (I've seen as many as 3 shooters given a reshoot on a stage, and get right back in line) gets back in line, rather then given everyone a chance to shoot their first time.

And yes, I've seen shooters ask for reshoots at above monthlies and can't understand because their club gives reshoots. MT

As to above monthlies, I've seen TO give reshoots to some shooters, but not everyone when firearms weren't properly placed on tables. (shotgun were rifle was to be, or vice versa. or pistols on table, and shooter leaves holstered). Do they hurt the end results, yes. A second place shooter would have been the State Champion instead of another if the re-shoot woukld not have been given.

 

...and was it pointed out that the RULES specifically cover that as a "P" unless corrected "unassisted & on the clock" ?...i.e. NOT grounds for a reshoot??

 

[Rye Miles #13621]

At our local club Firelands Peacemakers, we allow one reshoot due to ammo or firearm problems.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

The easy way out is to fall back mindlessly on the rules and move on.

 

Using the rules exactly as written and exactly the same every match is anything but "mindless."

 

It is done with great intent and serious thought. For the real good reasons stated above, it makes a failure carry the proper weight.

 

If you want to hold practices, then run practice sessions. If you want to run competitions, then you use the rules. I never see folks publish results, give awards, etc for practice sessions. I do see that for many monthlies. If it is worth putting in writing or handing out an award, it's worth doing it right.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

I view monthlies as practice. So if it was up to me I'd allow a re-shoot if your feelings got hurt as long as there was enough time. I'll take a re-shoot anytime and everytime it's offered...if only because I'd rather be shooting than re-loading strips or going to the outhouse.

 

That said, competition is competition and re-shoots on that basis should NOT be scored. If it is all just practice at some point then see what you do, but don't expect an award for it. Otherwise we're really not shooting the same match are we?

[Cypress Sun]

Diablo

 

I think the rules should govern each and every match. Doesn't matter if it concerns a reshoot or not. By following the rules, every shooter has a level (as much as it can) playing field.

 

No one likes awarding penalties even though the shooter earned them...............it's just part of the game.

[Anvil Al #59168]

I view monthlies as practice. So if it was up to me I'd allow a re-shoot if your feelings got hurt as long as there was enough time. I'll take a re-shoot anytime and everytime it's offered...if only because I'd rather be shooting than re-loading strips or going to the outhouse.

 

That said, competition is competition and re-shoots on that basis should NOT be scored. If it is all just practice at some point then see what you do, but don't expect an award for it. Otherwise we're really not shooting the same match are we?

 

 

Yep.

 

And if it is just about practice. I will be happy to stay a little while after the match and run you through some

stages if you want to practice.

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

Tough topic. As Slim pointed out, it's a head vs. heart situation. You feel tons of empathy for the unfortunate shooter who had a case collapse in their rifle magazine and had to eat 9 rounds, or a squib in their pistol or shotgun or any other of the numerous boo boos that can happen. The easy way out is to fall back mindlessly on the rules and move on. At a state match or above, yes it has to be that way, no argument. If you are going to compete at that level you need to have all the oars in the water and be prepared. At a monthly match, I tend to agree with folks that say that is where training occurs. Some folks just do not have the opportunity to practice 2 or 3 times a week and work all the kinks out with equipment and ammo.

I know quite a few shooters that don't travel and their only "Big Match" is their clubs annual......and their monthly matches do mean something to them. The monthlies are their measuring stick.

 

Why do you mindlessly discount them?......because it's only an annual?.....it's only a monthly? Those matches are not worthy of your respect as a competition?

 

The folks that don't have the opportunity to practice and work out all the kinks with their equipment and ammo deserve special consideration when it comes to the rules and the folks that made time and sacrifice to get it right don't deserve to have the rules followed?

 

If a club wants to initiate a club rule that is fine with me........an individual taking it upon themselves to be the judge and jury for all the shooters at a match and not follow the rules......that's not fine with me.

 

That Club Match is "The Championship" for some shooters.......don't they deserve to know that the rules are being followed by everyone? Don't they deserve to win or lose based on the rules as written and not because some TO has discounted the importance of those rules because to that TO "it's only a monthly/annual"? Isn't that TO really saying "I've reached a level where I don't care about monthly matches or annuals so no one else should care either." ?

 

I hope I never forget the importance of these matches for the up and comers......

 

Stan

 

PS.....Do I care how I finish at a monthly match? NO because for me "it's only a monthly"......Do I remember how proud I was when I won my first monthly? YOU BET!!!! That small, hand made, wooden trophy sits right next to my World Champion trophy.

[Madd Mike #8595]

Yep.

 

And if it is just about practice. I will be happy to stay a little while after the match and run you through some

stages if you want to practice.

I would also do the same as AA

Besides that, practice not taking a reshoot, is practice :-) , FOR NOT TAKING A RESHOOT

[Blackey Cole]

My problem is like GJ and Larson said your training bad habits for when they goes elsewhere even if it is across town. I'm for rge shoots and restarts when the rules allow. Ie reshoot are allowed as long as no round goes down range or for timer failure or prop failure that impedes the shooter not for bad coaching or spotter interference for physical contact not for yeah ing or being in the their perifirual view.

 

If you follow the rules for sass and the ranges posted rules then no one can San they showed favoritism to x.if the rules are followed by everyone then everyone knows them and if they don't follow them they know to expect a penally. Make it the same for everyone. At monthlies when teaching a new shooter you can allow them lea way as long as you let them know the rule when you do it.