Why I give reshoots

[Anvil Al #59168]

Stan makes a good point.

 

For some. That monthly might be there big match.

[Straight Arrow Hombre]

We offer one reshoot per stage with a max of two per match for mechanical/ammo issues. Actual misses, Ps, and MSVs carry forward. The rule is applied evenly and everyone knows about it. EVERY shooter knows the difference between our monthly and a larger match. Best thing is, we have FUN!!

[Cat Brules]

For ammo problems the line has to be drawn somewhere, after the first round goes down range is the simplest place to draw it.

 

As others have said, at a match with more than one posse, it's difficult as best to stay consistent to rule variations.

 

Declare malfunction, hand it off or ground it and finish the stage, record time and such and next shooter. If the posse has the time and inclination the bad luck shooter could run the stage again for no recorded score.

 

I advise against that. Don't ask why.

Further to that, what if everyone wanted to shoot the stage again "for no time?" They would be entitled to.

 

Just go by the rules. Plus, if anyone ever offers to cut you some slack regarding the rules, tell them "NO!!" and tell them why. It is best for them, best for you, best for the other shooters and best for the game. You as the TO or MD, PM and you as the shooter, will lose the respect of others and degrade the game if you allow deviation from the rules. It really is cheating and you're not doing a new shooter any favors by giving that consideration (which is not yours to either give or take). You are really telling the new shooter that he doesn't fit in. Treat (penalize) him (and the kid shooters, too) like everyone else and they'll feel exactly like part of the group and be able to complain with everyone else after the match, about missing or getting a procedural.

[Amarillo Rattler]

IMHO, reshoots, outside the rules, do not belong in any organized match, club monthly and above. Our rules allow for a restart when no rounds have been fired. That is good enough!

 

I have seen a new shooter at his/her first monthly match receive a SDQ and say "Thanks for the lesson. I won't do that again"

 

Save your practice time for dry firing or live fire practice sessions.

 

Just sayin'

 

AR

[J-BAR #18287]

Reshoots outside the rules penalize those who work hard to make sure their firearms and ammo are reliable. Don't do it.

[Blackey Cole]

Brother king the problem is not everyone views the monthly shoots as practice especially since a lot of clubs gives awards and post results. Practice you don't keep score in my book. Plus do you pay to practice? I don't me a range fee but a match fee what do they call it where you shoot?

[Rye Miles #13621]

When all is said and done whether it's a state, regional or monthly they're all just shoots!

[Grizzly Dave]

Cat - just to clarify, I was talking at the monthly level if the club and posse were amenable. Not much different than a few folks staying after to practice. Obviously this would be far less practical for clubs running 5 or 6 possies per monthly than it would be for those running one or maybe two.

 

Blacky - the second part of Brother Kings post was to say that reshoots (for other than things allowed for under the rules) should not be scored, so they would not effect any placements or awards.

[Diamond S Doug]

We offer one reshoot per stage with a max of two per match for mechanical/ammo issues. Actual misses, Ps, and MSVs carry forward. The rule is applied evenly and everyone knows about it. EVERY shooter knows the difference between our monthly and a larger match. Best thing is, we have FUN!!

 

 

And this is well within the rules. Seems like some of those responding have forgotten that the rules include the following on RO1 p. 20

 

SASS matches above the club level are “no alibi” matches. Once the first round goes down

range, the competitor is committed to the stage and must finish the stage to the best of his or her

ability.

 

However some clubs, my home club included have elected to follow a no alibi for all matches. Offer me a reshoot for a squib or ammo at my club I will decline, offer me one at yours and I will accept. Both are well within the rules of SASS.

 

Are we teaching bad habits or are we teaching that there are different rules for different matches. That's debatable, but both are within the rules. So we need to follow the rules as written and in this situation both are following the rules as written

[Ace_of_Hearts]

I cut a great deal of slack for a shooter that shoots with us at monthly shoots if that shooter is new to the game. But that slack gets shorter and shorter each time they walk to the firing line. Mistakes and malfunctions are clearly explained and the shooter LEARNS from the experience and feels welcomed.

By the same token I cut no slack for the new shooter at an annual match and actually feel sorry for them as they have no grasp of many the rules. I had to SDQ a young lady who was shooting her second match at a STATE match when she de-cocked her pistol after firing 5 rounds.

She had no idea what happened until I handed off the timer and went to explain it to her at the unloading table. Come to find out that she did this all the time at her club. No one had ever called her attention to the fact that she was doing something against the rules.

You must call everything that a new shooter earns, but explain why it is not allowed.

[Straight Arrow Hombre]

Just so we all are clear. The clubs I frequent that allow limited reshoots for mechanical/ammo issues enforce all other penalties.

[Madd Mike #8595]

Stan makes a good point.

 

For some. That monthly might be there big match.

And

Most reshoots are very limited at "big matches"

Dog chasing it's own tail here

:-)

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

I think it's a mistake not going by the rules, no reshoots except those for legitimate reasons under current rules. Teaches shooters wrong , I dont want to hear that at such and such a place they let us do it.

 

 

AO

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Just for clarification, which rule?

 

The one about local matches or the one about above club matches?

[Blackey Cole]

The md that states at the monthlies reshoots will be given for ammo firearm failure has just made that a range rule and iirc they stated it was a club option that would not happen at annuals or state and above matches. This does two things it sets it as a club monthly rule and that it is not a sass rule thus will not be given at any higher matches. I like it for that reason alone it is just like the round over the berm rule varies from club/range to club/range. So that makes it fair as long as everyone is given the opportunity. The only mandatory reshoots are timer failure that I know of.

[Grizzly Dave]

The md that states at the monthlies reshoots will be given for ammo firearm failure has just made that a range rule and iirc they stated it was a club option that would not happen at annuals or state and above matches. This does two things it sets it as a club monthly rule and that it is not a sass rule thus will not be given at any higher matches. I like it for that reason alone it is just like the round over the berm rule varies from club/range to club/range. So that makes it fair as long as everyone is given the opportunity. The only mandatory reshoots are timer failure that I know of.

 

Refer to RO 1 page 22

[Charlie Whiskers]

I'm a member of 3 different clubs. All 3 will sometimes allow a reshoot for different reasons at a monthly with penalties carrying over. When the POSSE agreed to give that NEW shooter a reshoot due to a high primer locking up a pistol after 2 rounds had gone down range, he was made aware it was a one time thing. In his defense, he was using ALL borrowed equipment from guns to leather to someone's reloads. NO it wasn't my reloads....lol. I let him know about the rule regarding the once a round goes downrange thing and he now knows if he shoots there again or at another club and it happens, don't expect to get a reshoot. He was grateful for the chance or do over as some call it, but also knows it was a one time thing and not to "expect" it at any club. I had a split case I missed when I was reloading once and it cost me 3 misses in my rifle. I was offered a reshoot but declined. Now I really pay attention to cases when I reload.

[Cat Brules]

Cat - just to clarify, I was talking at the monthly level if the club and posse were amenable. Not much different than a few folks staying after to practice. Obviously this would be far less practical for clubs running 5 or 6 possies per monthly than it would be for those running one or maybe two.

 

Blacky - the second part of Brother Kings post was to say that reshoots (for other than things allowed for under the rules) should not be scored, so they would not effect any placements or awards.

 

Griz,

We are probably not going to agree on this issue and that really is okay with me. No hard feelings here and I trust you have none, either. I guess we simply see things through different lenses. I really see the monthly matches the same as any other match and my opinion mirrors my pragmatic view of the world, how I wish to be treated and how I try to treat others. Who's to say which, or either of us, is right?

[Grizzly Dave]

 

Griz,

We are probably not going to agree on this issue and that really is okay with me. No hard feelings here and I trust you have none, either. I guess we simply see things through different lenses. I really see the monthly matches the same as any other match and my opinion mirrors my pragmatic view of the world, how I wish to be treated and how I try to treat others. Who's to say which, or either of us, is right?

 

No worries, I imagine it has very much to do with the club and people involved.

[Diamond S Doug]

I think it's a mistake not going by the rules, no reshoots except those for legitimate reasons under current rules. Teaches shooters wrong , I dont want to hear that at such and such a place they let us do it.

 

 

AO

You mean the rule on P 20 of RO1 that states that "no alibi" matches are SASS matches above the club level...

[Sedalia Dave]

Everyone keeps stating the rules but few are actually referencing them.

 

Pg 22 of the current ROI handbook states;

" SASS matches above the club level are “no alibi” matches. Once the first round goes down range, the competitor is committed to the stage and must finish the stage to the best of his or her ability. Reshoots/restarts are not awarded for ammunition or firearm malfunctions. However, if there is a range failure (failure of props, timer, or the range officers) beyond the competitor’s
control, a restart may be granted. On a reshoot/restart, the competitor starts over clean, carrying only accrued safety penalties forward. At all SASS annual club, state, Regional, National, and World Championship matches, no reshoots/restarts will be given after the first shot goes down range as determined by the Chief Range Officer and the Match Director, except for:
• Prop or match equipment failure
• A Range Officer impeding the progress of the shooter
• Timer failure or unrecorded time

 

Appendix D of the ROI handbook states

 

"Reshoots are granted for failure of props/match equipment; Range Officer impeding shooter progress; or timer failure. Failure of shooter equipment or firearms may be granted at the discretion of the Match Director (except at annual or state/regional championships and above). Only safety penalties carry over."

"Restarts shall be allowed for a competitor to achieve a “clean” start, up to the point at which the first round goes down range.
Multiple restarts by the same shooter, that in the judgment of the R.O. are seen to be taking advantage, will not be entertained as they are not in the spirit of the game."

 

So as the rules are currently written, allowing reshoots at a clubs MONTHLY match is not against the rules. So what we are really talking about here is how different clubs handle reshoots at the monthly club matches.

 

I shoot with Diablo Slim every month and have a lot of respect for how he runs the monthly club matches. He is fair and makes sure everyone is safe and that we all have fun. I have seen him take new shooters under his wing and coach and mentor them. This includes myself as well as others. When a first time shooter makes a mistake he is there with positive feedback and coaching to ensure that the shooter takes away a positive attitude towards SASS. This attitude is shared by all the shooters at our monthly matches. Having Fun Safely is always the number one priority.

[Anvil Al #59168]

Think we are all aware of that Dave. Just that many of us feel it is a bad idea even at that level.

[Cowboy Junky]

Think we are all aware of that Dave. Just that many of us feel it is a bad idea even at that level.

I think "you" are aware of it........but read through this thread again......many aren't and keep responding as if re-shoots somehow break the rules. I see the benefits of both (in a monthly) so I'm torn. I will say this......if you have 3 posses and 50+ shooter's at a monthly it will be HARD to be consistent. I'm finding that out the hard way.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

One more reason why I never hold the timer. I will do everything else on a posse but I will not be the RO.

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

You mean the rule on P 20 of RO1 that states that "no alibi" matches are SASS matches above the club level...

 

I mean once 1st round goes down range you own it, I dont really care for reshoots for mechanical or ammo issues,

 

AO

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

One more reason why I never hold the timer. I will do everything else on a posse but I will not be the RO.

Understood, one big reason I'm no longer a TG, re-shoots and abuse. MT

[Lead Ringer]

I view monthlies as practice. So if it was up to me I'd allow a re-shoot if your feelings got hurt as long as there was enough time. I'll take a re-shoot anytime and everytime it's offered...if only because I'd rather be shooting than re-loading strips or going to the outhouse.

 

That said, competition is competition and re-shoots on that basis should NOT be scored. If it is all just practice at some point then see what you do, but don't expect an award for it. Otherwise we're really not shooting the same match are we?

+1

This was my thought also. At your monthly, if your going to give a reshoot. Don't score it. Keep the original score or DNF. Now your guys have a chance to shoot all the stages and the actual winner is the winner.

Regards,

Ringer

[Jack Houston # 35508]

Rules SUCK !!!

[Lead Ringer]

Rules SUCK !!!

Anarchy Forever!!

[diablo slim]

Thanks to all who responded ( both sides) i appreciate all the feed back....

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

+1

This was my thought also. At your monthly, if your going to give a reshoot. Don't score it. Keep the original score or DNF. Now your guys have a chance to shoot all the stages and the actual winner is the winner.

Regards,

Ringer

 

Totally agree as long as there is no posse waiting to shoot stage, I've done it just to shoot a stage that looked like fun but had some issue on my "scored run" , of course only at normal monthlies.

 

 

AO

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

My favorite SASS rule. "The clubs can do anything they want rule." Thus, when a club is not following the rules they are actually following the rules because there is a rule that says they don't have to follow the rules.

 

So, yes clubs can do anything they want. However it is poor training and a disservice to their members. If a club is advertising itself as a SASS club, it should follow the actual rules not the clubs can do anything "rule." And YES everyone with a modicum of common sense knows there might be exceptions for guests and newbies.

[Sedalia Dave]

My favorite SASS rule. "The clubs can do anything they want rule." Thus, when a club is not following the rules they are actually following the rules because there is a rule that says they don't have to follow the rules.

 

So, yes clubs can do anything they want. However it is poor training and a disservice to their members. If a club is advertising itself as a SASS club, it should follow the actual rules not the clubs can do anything "rule." And YES everyone with a modicum of common sense knows there might be exceptions for guests and newbies.

I agree Larsen. Well said. but what about other local club rules that are more restrictive than SASS rules???

 

Knowing that I am opening another can of worms and likely hi-jacking Diablo's thread, a lot of what has been said could also be applied to the plant and poke rule that many but not all clubs have when it comes to how shotguns are loaded. Plant an poke is not required by the current SASS rules but many clubs have it as a local rule and it is applied to monthly as well as major matches.

Depending on whether or not your club does or does not have this particular rule you could be disadvantaged at a big match. There is a speed advantage to being able to load your shotgun on the move. Those that practice and shoot this way run the risk of a safety violation when shooting at clubs that do have this rule. Likewise those that regularly shoot at clubs where plant and poke is common have a slight speed disadvantage shooting at a match where loading a shotgun on the move is allowed. Muscle memory is how the fast shooters got that way and just because I can load on the move doesn't mean that I will take advantage of it because it goes against my training. This also cuts the other way. I may unintentionally load on the move at a match that has the plant and poke rule simply because that is how I train. Some will say the difference is small and it is, but the difference between 1st and second place can be very small. Throw in a penalty and all of the sudden the difference is not so small after all.

 

I am sure many clubs have other local rules that I am unaware of and there is a good reason for them. I also strongly believe that Match Directors and Club Officers need to have some flexibility in how their particular club operates. Local conditions can sometimes necessitate the need for applying the spirit of the rules

 

Guess I'll go and join Diablo Slim in the fire.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Folks,

 

I shot with a lady at what may have been her first big match. IIRC it was our Regional. She ran out of SG shells. I yelled at her to move on and not take the offered shells. She did not know about the "illegally acquired ammo" rule, and apparently some others did not either, as she had been handed shells at a local monthly match. The confusion probably cost her some time. She may have been told that it wouldn't be allowed elsewhere; however, I don't think any of us remember everything we hear...

 

Food for thought.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Straight Arrow Hombre]

Hi Folks,

 

I shot with a lady at what may have been her first big match. IIRC it was our Regional. She ran out of SG shells. I yelled at her to move on and not take the offered shells. She did not know about the "illegally acquired ammo" rule, and apparently some others did not either, as she had been handed shells at a local monthly match. The confusion probably cost her some time. She may have been told that it wouldn't be allowed elsewhere; however, I don't think any of us remember everything we hear...

 

Food for thought.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

As I stated earlier in this thread, offering reshoots for ammo/mechanical issues doesn't mean all other rules get relaxed or thrown out.

 

Also what was the shooter that offered shells thinking? It takes two to make that situation happen.