Why I give reshoots

[Yusta B.]

I agree Larsen. Well said. but what about other local club rules that are more restrictive than SASS rules???

 

Knowing that I am opening another can of worms and likely hi-jacking Diablo's thread, a lot of what has been said could also be applied to the plant and poke rule that many but not all clubs have when it comes to how shotguns are loaded. Plant an poke is not required by the current SASS rules but many clubs have it as a local rule and it is applied to monthly as well as major matches.

This rule which may or may not have started at the range of a large Regional was the result of an AD from a shooter tripping & the resultant law suit. The range had no choice in the matter.

[Anvil Al #59168]

Heck if we are going to offer reshoots for everything.

 

Lets just call it a practice session and be done with it.

[Sedalia Dave]

This rule which may or may not have started at the range of a large Regional was the result of an AD from a shooter tripping & the resultant law suit. The range had no choice in the matter.

I knew there was a good reason for the rule and personally I think it is a good one.

[Charlie Whiskers]

Maybe I missed something new and not in the safety section of the handbook on page 22. All it says in there is that whenever a shooter has a loaded cocked firearm in hand, one foot must remain in place on the ground. It doesn't say you can't load your shotgun on the move. It just says once it's cocked, or in the case of a SXS that would be when the barrels are closed, then you have to stop moving. Or in a 97 once you close the slide. Up until that point it's still not cocked.

[Anvil Al #59168]

Maybe I missed something new and not in the safety section of the handbook on page 22. All it says in there is that whenever a shooter has a loaded cocked firearm in hand, one foot must remain in place on the ground. It doesn't say you can't load your shotgun on the move. It just says once it's cocked, or in the case of a SXS that would be when the barrels are closed, then you have to stop moving. Or in a 97 once you close the slide. Up until that point it's still not cocked.

 

 

This is NOT a SASS rule.

 

But a range rule that started at one club. They hold a large regional and that rule has caught on at

many different ranges around some parts of the country.

 

But again. Not a SASS rule. But all clubs and ranges can and do have some safety rules other than what

SASS rules state.

[Sedalia Dave]

Maybe I missed something new and not in the safety section of the handbook on page 22. All it says in there is that whenever a shooter has a loaded cocked firearm in hand, one foot must remain in place on the ground. It doesn't say you can't load your shotgun on the move. It just says once it's cocked, or in the case of a SXS that would be when the barrels are closed, then you have to stop moving. Or in a 97 once you close the slide. Up until that point it's still not cocked.

No this is not a SASS rule but a local club rule.

The reason is that if the shooter were to fall or stumble the action on either a SXS, Pump, or Lever action shotcun could close and the gun accidentally discharge. Based on how we hold shotguns this is a real posibility and has probably happened at least once but it was before my time.

We had a saying in the Navy that most rules were written in someone elses blood.

[Charlie Whiskers]

OK...misunderstood the local rule part. I thought you meant it's against the rules period.

[Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880]

This rule which may or may not have started at the range of a large Regional was the result of an AD from a shooter tripping & the resultant law suit. The range had no choice in the matter.

 

Can you tell us where that allegedly happened? One match director who has a "plant and poke" rule told me it happened at Guns of August but no one associated with GOA ever heard of such an incident and GOA does not have a P and P rule.

[Sedalia Dave]

Can you tell us where that allegedly happened? One match director who has a "plant and poke" rule told me it happened at Guns of August but no one associated with GOA ever heard of such an incident and GOA does not have a P and P rule.

Can't seee where the actual club really matters any more. It happened in the past and while we should all learn from it, the time and place are irrevelant and may bring up feelings that are best left burried in the past.

 

To see why, imagin you are holding your shotgun loaded with the action open. Picture where your hands are. Now imagine what could happen if you were to stumble and fall forward. Do you hang on to the gun and try to keep the muzzle under control or do you let it go with one or both hands and try to ease the impact of your fall? What props/Stage construction would you or the shotgun hit? Would the action stay open or could it close? Are you certain? What is the likely hood your finger is on the trigger. Given how we slick up the actions with lighter than factory trigger springs are you confident that if you dropped your shotgun it would not discharge?

 

I know what ifs can be a dangerous game to play. Spent a better part of my military career explaining to folks why you don't do certain things that on the surface seem safe but when looked at from another perspective the why becomes readily apparent.

 

Naval Avation had a bible called NATOPS. Most of the rules and procedures in it were a direct result of a previous avaitor loosing /damaging an aircraft or even worse loosing their life or limb. Naval Avation was vastly different from the rest of the US Navy in that it internally published accidents and accident investigation results so that others could learn from them. After leaving the Navy I discovered that the rest of the world covers up embarssing events up rather than using them as teaching points.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Here we go...

 

Please protect us from everything...

 

Wonderful...so glad we have new folks that will save us from ourselves.

 

oy...

[Blackey Cole]

If you have ever worked in a safety position it changes the way you look at things. Like Dave said every safety rule came from someone doing it and getting hurt or worst.

[Sedalia Dave]

Here we go...

 

Please protect us from everything...

 

Wonderful...so glad we have new folks that will save us from ourselves.

 

oy...

 

 

If you have ever worked in a safety position it changes the way you look at things. Like Dave said every safety rule came from someone doing it and getting hurt or worst.

 

I am a far cry from being a safety nazi and have VERY LITTLE interest in saving anyone from themselves. IMHO a little clorine in the gene pool can be good thing.

 

But as Blackey Cole stated you tend to look at things differently when you are exposed to 20+ years of risk management in one form or another. All that training tends to make you see the world a little differently.

Have learned that in many cases being able to understand and show people the why of it instead of just stating "thats the way it is, live with it" makes people more understanding.

Saw enough impossible events happen in my lifetime that I firmly beleive nothing is impossible for a sufficently untrained human being to accomplish

[Wes Durn, SASS#18998]

You give a shooter a reshoot for an ammunition malfunction. You give every one on your posse the same option if they too have an ammunition malfunction.

 

There is no way you can guarantee that every posse will do the same. Now every other shooter not on this posse is a a disadvantage on the scoring.

Only way this works for everyone is to have a stage marshal is assigned to a specific stage and who makes sure all shooters get the same treatment on their stage.

 

Then it doesn't matter if one stage gives reshoots and on another it doesn't. Each stage will be equal to all shooters, not just a single posse that treats all it's shooters the same.

 

Whether its a monthly match, a state match, a regional, a national or the world championships, all rules need to be followed and applied as written.

 

I know it can be hard to watch a shooter have a bad day and not want to help them by giving them a reshoot so they can correct bad ammunition, jammed gun or what ever causes things to go wrong for a shooter. But doing so takes away from shooters who do not have these issues. They made sure to have ammunition that works. They have made sure their guns function and will get through a complete match without failure. They came prepared.

 

Yes it's hard to penalize a bad day. But penalizing those who do not have a bad day by allowing the reshoot for other than stage failures, timer failures and interference, etc. is not doing any one any favors.

 

Play by the rules. Play by the rules for everyone. This is the only way to make it fair for all.

 

As a counter or timer, I do not give penalties.

I keep count of penalties earned.

Nothing more and nothing less.

And there are times I do feel really bad for a shooter when things go wrong.

--------------------

 

 

That sums it up nicely! Anything else is, no matter how you justify it, technically unfair. I don't see how one could deny that.

Sure, our altruistic natures sometimes get the best of us, especially around friends and so forth, but the rules are there for rather specific and obvious reasons - to keep the game fair, etc.

 

Naturally, we could debate all day and night whether "bending" the rules is okay at monthlies, or at this type of match or that - but the fact remains that unless you have some method in place to ensure that everyone, on every posse, etc., receives those same "courtesies," there is no denying that the final results are really not 100% fair.

 

While to many, this is just not, nor will it ever be a big deal at all, and that is that (and quite understandable) - we shouldn't presume everyone feels that way.

[Straight Arrow Hombre]

 

 

That sums it up nicely! Anything else is, no matter how you justify it, technically unfair. I don't see how one could deny that.

Sure, our altruistic natures sometimes get the best of us, especially around friends and so forth, but the rules are there for rather specific and obvious reasons - to keep the game fair, etc.

 

Naturally, we could debate all day and night whether "bending" the rules is okay at monthlies, or at this type of match or that - but the fact remains that unless you have some method in place to ensure that everyone, on every posse, etc., receives those same "courtesies," there is no denying that the final results are really not 100% fair.

 

While to many, this is just not, nor will it ever be a big deal at all, and that is that (and quite understandable) - we shouldn't presume everyone feels that way.

You are correct and this is the reason we codefied or reshoot policy.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

So, do we want to modify the current SASS rules about reshoots?

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

So, do we want to modify the current SASS rules about reshoots?

I don't think so....I like that each club can set their own standard. If the CLUB wants to allow reshoots for xyz fine.......my problem is when individuals irregardless of club rules hand out reshoots as THEY deem fit.

 

If a club has that type of rule it should be discussed at EVERY shooters meeting so new/visiting shooters will be aware of it.

 

Stan

[Yusta B.]

I don't think so....I like that each club can set their own standard. If the CLUB wants to allow reshoots for xyz fine.......my problem is when individuals irregardless of club rules hand out reshoots as THEY deem fit.

 

If a club has that type of rule it should be discussed at EVERY shooters meeting so new/visiting shooters will be aware of it.

 

Stan

Absolutely ! If any local rules conflict with written SASS rules they need to be announced, explained and questions fielded at the shooter/safety meeting every match there.

[Cat Brules]

Reshoots or any other consideraions allowed for a shooter, that are not covered by SASS rules is just a modified version of (mostly, unintended) cheating and is unfair to the other member/shooters, who, by some mystifying "code of the B-Western" or some such, are too intimidated, usually, to speak up and take exception.

 

It is unfair to the shooter who is illegally given the condensation (and, that's exactly what it is), it's unfair to every other shooter and it goes beyond the authority of the Timer Operator, the Posse Marshal or whoever other "officer" allows it to happen.

 

You know, CAS is very often not considered a shooting sport by many other other shooting organizations, mostly for the sloppy ways we have of enforcing organization rules, from major matches, down to the lowest level match. Heck, many SASS/CAS members agree and expound a laundry list of specious arguements why they don't care. Maybe that's okay.. Doesn't matter, ASIDE from the fact that many, including myself, feel that the fast an loose playing around with SASS rules by club "officers'," who control by ownership, force of will, simple lack of interest by other members of that club, etc., and who toss out tidbits of consideration to members when they err or have ammo and equipment failures, are simply being unfair, and are just plain wrong.. It is wrong, it is bad for everyone concerned and it does send a poor message to other members and to the "outside world."

 

Anyway, play it however you want. I'll dally off and stay on my horse. You all have to either do the same or get dragged off by the steer. , maybe saddle and all! That would either be brain fade (let's say "bad ammo") or equipment failure. Think that steer is gonna give you a reshoot? ?? This thinking and behavior is really an unintended microcosm of a socialist society, where those in charge dole out favors and government aid to those who don't deserve it. So, my opinion is that we should all speak out loudly and defend our position and opposition to these incidents where the rules are violated by "officers" who have no right to do so. They are mostly NOT bad guys; they think they are doing the right thing, but I believe they should give this matter thought and consider other perspectives.

 

The above, of course, is just my opinion. So, okay, next shooter........

[Attica Jack #23953]

Just follow the SASS rules, about when a reshoot should be allowed.............nuff said.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Going back to the original post is instructive. "Why I give reshoots." And, that's the problem. When reshoots or bending any other rule is left up to "I" we collectively are in for problems.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

If Explanations are needed about why you are doing something that other folks are not commonly doing, and those actions affect everyone at your match, you really will have "some 'splaining to do" every match, to everyone, and we all know how well verbal instructions to a bunch of SASS pards usually work out.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

[Marauder SASS #13056]

I don't think so....I like that each club can set their own standard. If the CLUB wants to allow reshoots for xyz fine.......my problem is when individuals irregardless of club rules hand out reshoots as THEY deem fit.

 

If a club has that type of rule it should be discussed at EVERY shooters meeting so new/visiting shooters will be aware of it.

 

Stan

 

Great idea, Stan!

[Sedalia Dave]

I don't think so....I like that each club can set their own standard. If the CLUB wants to allow reshoots for xyz fine.......my problem is when individuals irregardless of club rules hand out reshoots as THEY deem fit.

 

If a club has that type of rule it should be discussed at EVERY shooters meeting so new/visiting shooters will be aware of it.

 

Stan

 

 

In Diablo Slim's case he does that each and every time. That also goes for each of the other three clubs I shoot at the Match Director clearly states the club rules and makes sure everyone understands.

[Madd Mike #8595]

Heck if we are going to offer reshoots for everything.

 

Lets just call it a practice session and be done with it.

Good way to look at it, I agree,I smith a timed match with a base line or not

[Blastmaster]

Heck if we are going to offer reshoots for everything.

 

Lets just call it a practice session and be done with it.

when you get down to a one (1) posse match, it boils down to a 'practice session'.

 

edit to the above;

 

The one posse match still has the 10-10-4 for six stages with usually a Nevada sweep, progressive sweep, 2-1-2, and so forth,,,, just like the big ticket matches.

 

Small shoots are too much fun. You have a better chance of seeing fliers, reloads, carrying stuff, down range movement, vertical staging, left hand friendly movement and other rarities you don't see much of at larger matches....and occassionally a compassionate reshoot (major equipment/ammo problem) to someone that isn't in the hunt for any catagory, and possible the only person in the catagory,,,,, if the match even tracts catagories. Yes, everyone, including the shooter understands or will be advised that the special compensation is not within the rules and not to expect it next time or any where else.