which 45 LC rifle has strongest action for heavy loads?

[Guest Max Morgan, SASS 41265]

although I had to retire from cas, I have a bunch of heavy loads from the days (1980's) of bowling pin shooting matches. the loads have 250-260 gr swc or rnfp with enough powder to blast out of a $&W model 25, 8 3/8" barrel handgun at 850 fps. too much for the old hands these days as well as the 45LC uberti 73.

 

so what brand rifle would have the strongest action to shoot these loads w/o damage to said rifle?

 

max morgan sass 41265

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

A model 92.

[Pit Bull Tex]

Of the CAS rifles,I would say the rossi 92s.I shoot a lot of 357 mag. out of mine for hunting.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

I'd have to say a 92. Modern made 92's are cambered for .454 Casull. They can surely handle the hottest of .45 Colts.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Would be pretty easy and cheap to find one of the Trails End Winchester Model 94's, which is probably just a tad stronger action than any of the Win 92's. Certainly cheaper than most of the 92s, also.

 

Considering that model handles 30-30 and 38-55, it will hold any 45 Colt load you have on hand.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Tommy Reb]

'92 or a Browning 1885.

 

TR

[Ace_of_Hearts]

Henry Big Boy......

Modern design and strength.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

I'd have to say a 92. Modern made 92's are cambered for .454 Casull. They can surely handle the hottest of .45 Colts.

Most likely this.

 

GG

[Boggus Deal #64218]

A Marlin '94 would be pretty strong, as well.

[Lefty Dude, SASS # 51223]

Model 92 is my choice. My 92/44 Rossi digests some very strong 44 Mag. loads with ease.

[Warden Callaway]

I wouldn't have a bit of concern shooting any load safe enough for a S&W 25 in my Marlin 1894 45 Cowboy. I've heard tell of guys loading up the 45 Colt for the 1894 Marlin considerably hotter than the loads you are speaking of.

[Irish Pat]

Marlin 1894 handles 44 magnums, should handle your loads...

[Litl Red]

250 gr ?? 890 fps ??

 

Accurate powder load tables show loads for most of their pistol powders giving 1400 to 1500 with cast 255gr bullets. Nowadays my Marlin 45 Cowboy 1894 and one of those recipes is used to shoot Buffalo matches to 200 yds. The rifle is about twice as accurate with those loads as loads around 900-1000fps with the same weight bullets, which used to be my SASS load of choice. So...... it's had probably a couple thousand rounds through it over the years that're at least as strong as you are wondering about.

 

The rifle shows nothing more from that use other than it gets smoother and smoother. They're fine pieces.

[Guest Max Morgan, SASS 41265]

thanks pards for this info

 

this makes me wonder IF the uberti would not be stressed with the fore mentioned loads???

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

this makes me wonder IF the uberti would not be stressed with the fore mentioned loads???

 

From the published Hodgdon data on-line for .45 Colt pistol loads suitable for Colt single-action guns, your load would be fine and meet SAAMI pressures levels suitable for Colt single actions for most of the powders they have listed, but perhaps not all possible powders.

 

You could sure grab a loading manual and check your EXACT loads against the .45 Colt loads in the book, and find out for sure if they are under SAAMI pressure levels for .45 Colt. But, I think for most possible loads you would have, IF you are right about what velocity they clocked in at, then a 250 or 260 grain bullet load would not damage a toggle-action gun. BUT, you should check the loading data you used to verify the expected pressure levels before you touch off a few to see.

 

Good luck, and be safe. GJ

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I wouldn't have a bit of concern shooting any load safe enough for a S&W 25 in my Marlin 1894 45 Cowboy. I've heard tell of guys loading up the 45 Colt for the 1894 Marlin considerably hotter than the loads you are speaking of.

 

This would be my opinion also, based on my personal results.

 

I have some 'Godzilla' loads using 250, 260 and 300 grainers loaded up with a healthy dose of LilGun.

 

the power of these loads in my 16.25" 1894 Marlin can make the windows rattle in the house when I shoot em off my back deck.

 

 

..........Widder

[Chili Ron]

Howdy Max,

Strongest action probably the Win 1894. after all its really a rifle which can handle

some real critter killers.

The 94s aren't too popular, so cheaper but not in demand whenever you run outta rounds.

Maybe find a pard with a 92 or 94 and share shootin up those hot rounds.

Now that I think about it, it seems like you could shoot 45 lc rounds out of the

94 .454 casull, Winchester. Not 100 percent sure on that, just seems right.

Id say any round you can shoot out of a S&W you could shoot out of a marlin 94 Win 92 or win 94.

The strongest could be the Win 94.

The Rossi 92 would have the most modern alloy steels, probably.

Best

CR

ps, I just want to be clear, I posted this before NKJ posted.

I bow to his very experienced opinion.

 

NOTE: there are really TWO questions here

one is What is the strongest action and

two is what action is strong enuf to handle these reloads.

Some folks are answering one question and some are answering the other.

Im so confused....

[Blackey Cole]

All are good suggestions

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

If you need an excuse for a new rifle, go for it, but I tend to think that load would be fine in a toggle-link rifle. Like GJ said, do some checking in loading manuals to be sure. But be sure the OAL on them isn't over 1.6"

 

Also note that the rounds with SWC bullets may or may not have feeding issues in any rifle.

[John Boy]

so what brand rifle would have the strongest action to shoot these loads w/o damage to said rifle?

...

One night (around 1:00AM), I loaded some 45 Colts with Blue Dot for a 50-100-200yd match in the morning. Instead of putting 'x' GRAINS in the cases, I put 'X' GRAMS

When the 1st round went off - ever stand next to a 105 Howitzer with no ear plugs on? We figured it was probably close to 70,000 or 80,000 psi.

Resulting damage to the the rifle? A bulge in the chamber - so replaced the barrel only and it's still shooting

 

Well, if this example shows the strength of the double locking lug Rossi Winchester 92 - then that's the rifle. And it's a brass frame '92 also!

[Key Hay]

+1 for the 1894 Marlin.

[Nate Kiowa Jones #6765]

Would be pretty easy and cheap to find one of the Trails End Winchester Model 94's, which is probably just a tad stronger action than any of the Win 92's. Certainly cheaper than most of the 92s, also.

 

Considering that model handles 30-30 and 38-55, it will hold any 45 Colt load you have on hand.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

Howdy Max,

Strongest action probably the Win 1894. after all its really a rifle which can handle

some real critter killers.

The 94s aren't too popular, so cheaper but not in demand whenever you run outta rounds.

Maybe find a pard with a 92 or 94 and share shootin up those hot rounds.

Now that I think about it, it seems like you could shoot 45 lc rounds out of the

94 .454 casull, Winchester. Not 100 percent sure on that, just seems right.

Id say any round you can shoot out of a S&W you could shoot out of a marlin 94 Win 92 or win 94.

The strongest would be the Win 94.

The Rossi 92 would have the most modern alloy steels, probably.

Best

CR

 

Not even close.

 

Top end for a 30-30 is at about 40,000 PSI. The 44mag top end loads see about 40 to 45,000 psi.

For the other pistol cal leverguns that’s the top end limit. But, did you know Rossi also chambers their 92’s in 454 Casull. The Casull ammo can see upwards of 60,000. That's 308 and 30-06 pressures. Not even Marlins 336/95 action will handle those pressures. The Rossi 92 actions are doing fine at those levels.

The reason the 92 will handle this pressure is because of two things inherent in it's design. First is the twin locking bolts. The other leverguns like the marlins and the 94 win have single locking bolts that come up behind the breech bolt and are turned flat with the thin side toward the breech bolt. Under load it flexes much like a 2x4 used as a pry bar does when you use the flat wide side down. The 92 has two locking bolts turned to the narrow side so the wide portion doesn't flex.

Next is the angle of engagement of the two. The single locking bolt gun has to have the locking bolt laid back at a much more sever angle in relationship to the breech bolt. If it were more perpendicular the action would seize up when fired. So, once the pressured reach the 50,000 point or so, the action tries to fly open. The 92 on the other hand with it's twin locking bolts which disburses the pressure over more area, are positioned more toward the perpendicular which helps to prevent the action from trying to fly open.

On a side note, I think it was Freedom Arms that did some testing using a Marlin 336/95 style action

chambered in 454 Casull. After a few rounds it actually pushed the breech bolt over the locking bolt out the top of the receiver. They probably had the lever tied so it wouldn't open.

 

The 86 is a strong action too, but I think the 92 is stronger because it has a frame web just behind the locking bolts that ties the two side of the receiver together. The 86 doesn't have that web.

[Griff]

What Nate said.

 

In addition, the length of the mdl 94 is such that sidewall flex is an issue at over-max pressures. The 94 also had a web forward of the locking lug like the mdl 92, but... has much more open space that's unsupported ahead of it. It also flexes behind the web, which is why Winchester reinforced the rear of the receiver for the 375, 356 and 307 Big Bores. And they don't generate the pressures of the 454Casull.

 

In testing for the 375Winchester round... the originators used both Winchester 94s and Marlin 336s. Believe it or not, the Marlin failed before the Winchester. The Marlin 336 was changed from the square bolt to a round bolt with the rear of the action fully enclosing the bolt, due to strength issues... the long open side would flex upward and allow the bolt to disengage from the lug... remember, the lug in the Marlin 336 & 1894 only engages halfway up the underside of the bolt. It's why the 44Mag is the most powerful of the handgun cartridges the 1894 is chambered in. The Henry Big Boy is just a warmed over Marlin action IMO... not really all THAT stout... just heavy.

 

But, depending on the powder you've got in your 45Colt loads... that doesn't seem overly hot to me... My old (pre-CAS), load for the 45 Colt was a 255 Keith at a higher velocity than 850fps... Shot out of my early 3rd Gen Colt SAAs.

[Lucky Vaquero]

I own a Uberti 1873 44mag. I regularly shoot fairly hot factory ammo through it with no problems at all. Two common examples are Remington 180gr JSP (1610fps/1036ftlbs) and Winchester 240gr JSP (1180fps/741ftlbs). Those numbers are from handgun length barrels. Out of my 19" carbine they will be noticeably hotter. No factory 45LC non +P ammo approaches those numbers with those bullet weights. Not even close. The only way to produce those numbers in 45LC factory ammo is to use the hottest factory +P ammo.

 

I mention the ballistics to make this point. There's plenty of internet chatter about how the 1873 toggle link action isn't strong enough to handle these kinds of loads. Uberti begs to differ. They make them in these calibers and to date I can not find one single example of an 1873 being damaged in any way from firing even the hottest of hot factory ammo. Not one. In fact, I can't find an example of handloads damaging an 1873. I personally contacted Uberti to ask about this very issue and was unequivocally told that their 1873 clones can safely shoot ANY factory ammo. Period.

 

I did some further research and discovered that the receiver and toggle links for Uberti 45LC and 44mag rifles are the exact same part numbers. I can only surmise that if those parts can safely handle 44mag loads they will have no problem with 45LC loads because most factory 45LC loads are tamer than most factory 44mag loads.

 

In reply to the OP I did a quick search and easily found at least 7 common factory 45LC loads producing at least 850fps with bullets of at least 250gr. None of those are +P. According to Uberti they are completely safe to shoot in their 1873 clones so those reloads you have should not be a problem at all.

[Nate Kiowa Jones #6765]

The current 73's are no doubt stronger than the originals. Brand new they will take the proof loads no problem and you probably won't hear of one that had a catastrophic failure. But, I've been working on the Cowboy guns for 25 years and this is what I have seen. Over the years I have had three that had stretched the top strap to a point the headspace had grown so wide the firing pins no longer reached the primers. the window in the side of the receiver where the side plate fit was distorted to a point that the plate didn't fit anymore. These were guns shot with hot hand loads, but supposedly within book limits.

I have had several here that where shot loose even with CAS 38's. CAS 38 ammo is no where as powerful but it's more about round count. Some of these guns see 10's of thousand of rounds per year.

The problem is the number of hinge points that make up the toggle links. There is 12 different points of wear in these links. Each time it is shot they wear slightly. That little wear times 12 mounts up. The gun ends up loose. The symptoms are seen here regularly. The rim shelf's there on the bottom of the bolt face gets broke off. the extractors get bent or broke. you shoot the 73 with hot loads they are only going to wear out sooner.

In all things mechanical, less parts = less trouble.

[Lucky Vaquero]

Mr Jones, I'm new to CAS but I certainly know of your reputation and experience. I will defer to your expertise.

 

In the case of the three stretched guns we have no way of knowing for sure that the handloads were actually within book limits. I doubt that any one intentionally exceeding the limits would admit to it especially if they had to present it to a gunsmith of your stature for repair. Just out of curiosity what caliber were those three rifles?

 

In the case of the 38's having 10's of thousands of rounds per year I suspect that any rifle of any design would eventually wear out under that workload.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Mr Jones, I'm new to CAS but I certainly know of your reputation and experience. I will defer to your expertise.

 

In the case of the three stretched guns we have no way of knowing for sure that the handloads were actually within book limits. I doubt that any one intentionally exceeding the limits would admit to it especially if they had to present it to a gunsmith of your stature for repair. Just out of curiosity what caliber were those three rifles?

 

In the case of the 38's having 10's of thousands of rounds per year I suspect that any rifle of any design would eventually wear out under that workload.

The title of the thread is 'which 45 LC has the strongest action for heavy loads'. The '92 is currently available in a .454 Casull offering. As improved in strength the ones from Uberti are I doubt the '73 ever will be to handle as strong as loads as this over a period of time. Also with modern Starline brass a 45 Colt can be loaded as hot as a 44 Mag.( obviously there has to be caution as many firearms chambered for 45 Colt CANNOT handle these kinds of loads)

 

GG

[Chili Ron]

Howdy,

Our pard Eightbits has a ktgunsmith website where he goes into heavy 45 colt loads.

He also has plans to build a pressure gauge if you want to get into that.

He posts load info garunteed to crater sass steel targets.

NOT for sass shooting, pard.

These 45s are for hog hunting.

Do ya like bacon?

Best

CR

ps- I like the 92 and always have. How can ya go wrong with the gun John Wayne won the Civil War with?

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

My vote is for a 92 !

[Lucky Vaquero]

The title of the thread is 'which 45 LC has the strongest action for heavy loads'. The '92 is currently available in a .454 Casull offering. As improved in strength the ones from Uberti are I doubt the '73 ever will be to handle as strong as loads as this over a period of time. Also with modern Starline brass a 45 Colt can be loaded as hot as a 44 Mag.( obviously there has to be caution as many firearms chambered for 45 Colt CANNOT handle these kinds of loads)

GG

The discussion began with the assumption that the loads in question were too hot for a '73. The hand loads in question are not too hot. They are equal to typical factory loaded ammo and modern clones, pistol or rifle, are manufactured to safely shoot factory ammo. I am not claiming the 1873 design is the strongest action. I'm simply saying that if factory ammo is perfectly safe and appropriate to shoot out of an 1873 the OP's similarly loaded hand loads should also work just fine.

 

Follow my logic for a moment please. There are very few modern guns being manufactured in 45LC. The guns being made are almost exclusively pre-1900 designed clones. It's also safe to say that the 1873 design has a huge share of that market. In that the overwhelming majority of factory 45LC ammo is significantly hotter than typical CAS loads who are the ammo manufacturers making that ammo for if it's not safe to shoot in an 1873? Are we suggesting that the ammo manufacturers are purposely making ammo that is unsafe for one of the most popular calibers in one of the most popular guns in one of the most popular shooting disciplines? Are we also suggesting that Uberti, Chiappa, et al are manufacturing rifles with the disclaimer to shoot only factory ammo knowing full well that most factory ammo is too stout for the design of their rifles? It doesn't make sense. Neither the ammo manufacturers nor the rifle manufacturers would ever expose themselves to that kind of liability. Look at the "Ruger Only" loads warning as further proof. If the ammo isn't safe to shoot in 1873's the ammo manufacturers would clearly state it. They'd have to or their lawyers would go insane.

 

I fully concede that the 1873 may not be as sturdy a design as other designs. Mr Jones' explanation of the 12 pivot points is just one reason why. My one and only point is that the OP's ammo can be safely fired from his rifle.

[Blackwater 53393]

The Winchester '94 would be the choice. A heavily loaded .45 Colt can be hotter than .44 Remington Magnum due to larger projectile capability and greater cartridge volume. There is NO S.A.M.I. spec for+ P for .45 Colt, unlike most other pistol calibers. If your loads exceed S.A.M.I. specifications, this is more than even hot .44 mag. I'm reading this as your ammo is personal reloads and NOT factory ammunition.

 

As was stated earlier, the Winchester '94 was designed originally to handle .30-.30 and .38-55 ammo. The others were built for .44 WCF at maximum.

[Nate Kiowa Jones #6765]

The Winchester '94 would be the choice. A heavily loaded .45 Colt can be hotter than .44 Remington Magnum due to larger projectile capability and greater cartridge volume. There is NO S.A.M.I. spec for+ P for .45 Colt, unlike most other pistol calibers. If your loads exceed S.A.M.I. specifications, this is more than even hot .44 mag. I'm reading this as your ammo is personal reloads and NOT factory ammunition.

 

As was stated earlier, the Winchester '94 was designed originally to handle .30-.30 and .38-55 ammo. The others were built for .44 WCF at maximum.

 

 

You are assuming 30-30 and 38-55 are high power cartridges. They are not. Whether it's a rifle cal or a pistol cal has nothing to do with it.

Max for 30-30 is 42,000 psi and for 38-55 it's 30,000 psi.

If you think the 94 is stronger than the current production 92 then tell my why no one has successfully chambered one in 454 Casull?

Rossi offers their 92 in 454 Casull and have since the early 2000's. These guns see pressures equal to 30-06 and 308 in the 60,000+ range.

 

Read post #22. It explains why the 92 can do it and the others can't.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

I fully concede that the 1873 may not be as sturdy a design as other designs. Mr Jones' explanation of the 12 pivot points is just one reason why. My one and only point is that the OP's ammo can be safely fired from his rifle.

 

That's what I was trying to emphasis - but again, the OT headliner is what I was responding to and he did say in his OP "so what brand rifle would have the strongest action to shoot these loads w/o damage to said rifle? "

 

GG ~

[Nate Kiowa Jones #6765]

Mr Jones, I'm new to CAS but I certainly know of your reputation and experience. I will defer to your expertise.

 

In the case of the three stretched guns we have no way of knowing for sure that the handloads were actually within book limits. I doubt that any one intentionally exceeding the limits would admit to it especially if they had to present it to a gunsmith of your stature for repair. Just out of curiosity what caliber were those three rifles?

 

In the case of the 38's having 10's of thousands of rounds per year I suspect that any rifle of any design would eventually wear out under that workload.

 

And that would be a good argument not to do it here either. Those were 45lc guns. My point is if you plan to exceed the design parameters start with the strongest action available. That would be the 92.

[Desert Pete SASS #42168]

The new Lyman cast bullet manual breaks down rifles into strong action and weak actions. It has loading recommendations for both types.