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Smaller targets with less speed !


Rooster Ron Wayne

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Have ya eva looked at a car door target? 90% of tha hits are in tha 14" center. I don't know a fast guy who ain't tidy an wins with any regulairty (SP?)

 

 

RRR

 

 

Not bragin but 10 years before I won Mule Camp I won both Single shot an levergun Rifle cal sidematches at that shoot, there's a hellova lot of fast guns better than me. MC was one of tha first to say BIG AN CLOSE!

Rememberin back I remember shootin there from a dime store ELE horse while it was running, Pistol an Rifle an SG

 

 

RRR

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This is a side bar from the original post (for which I am sorry), but when did clean matches become important? I can't remember anyone really paying that much attention to it back "in the day," other than having more misses made it harder to win. These days, they announce who had a clean match like that actually matters. With the targets the way they are, anyone can have a clean match if you go slow enough, so whats the big deal? Is it some kind of consolation prise? "I finished dead last, but I did it Clean!?"

 

I only really care where I finished in the standings. Fast and messy will beat slow and tidy almost every time. The one you gotta watch out for is the guy who shoots fast and tidy, that guy is hard to beat!

 

 

You know your right I'm sure it wasn't important bcause the targets were so far away and small nobody could hit them all.

 

KK

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A lot of the changes have to do with the age of the competitors. If you ran matches like they were "back in the day" most folks would be unable to compete. Badlands Bob touched on some of it with the old Mule Camp stages. We used to do wild things like shoot from bath tubs and big 'ol rocking horses that rocked! We shot from rolling mine cars, rolling horses (and took turns pushing the shooters down the tracks)and shot from positions that most folks today would be unable to do. My favorite was jumping on the full size horse props before you could start blazing away with your guns!

 

How many of you are up for a 25 to 50 yard sprint stopping to shoot at targets along the way? You would have loved West End Gun Club back in its hey day!

 

How about little tiny rifle targets uphill in the brush with the sun right in your eyes? How about a 5 yard yard sprint and diving under a split rail fence to get the wagon you had to shoot under? You would have loved Cowtown!!

 

There was more fun back then, no one complained about running, jumping, pouring whiskey from a bottle, rolling dice or dealing cards to determine which target you started on. It has been pointed out (correctly) that this is a shooting contest and adding the element of luck of the draw will put some folks at a disadvantage. So many of the things that added to the overall fun for some folks did not make it fun for the majority.

 

The game has changed but the spirit of friendship has not.

 

P.S. I can still jump onto a big 'ol wooden horse and run a little if I have too!

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Well, I had alot of Wild Bunch rig orders the last couple of years...none in the last 6 months! Everyone who shoots it already has the gear.

 

 

Well, either that or they found someone who makes better/cheaper gear than you do. WB is growing up here in Alaska, but then again, we don't have as many people as the little states like Texas. :lol:

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You know your right I'm sure it wasn't important bcause the targets were so far away and small nobody could hit them all.

 

KK

 

Don't kid yourself, there were clean stages and some amazing shooters. Its just that no one went around announcing who shot a match clean.

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Yesterday I shot at the West Plains (Missouri) Waddies annual match. We had two posses, mebbe 35-40 shooters. Women, kids were there on both posses.

 

We shot 7 stages. The handgun targets were small but close, the rifle targets required a sight picture most of the time. Half the stages had goofy targets... a 8" cowboy silhouette on a rail that you pushed back with rifle shots until it tripped a flag, then dump the remaining shots on a bigger plate. There was a mine car on an inclined track...trigger the target with the first shot, then hit a 6 inch spinner on top of the mine car for a bonus, then dump the remainder on the cart before it gets to the bottom of the incline. We had to turn a shovel of dirt after the beep on one stage, throw a rope on a horse silhouette after the beep on another. The seventh stage had 3 (3!!) bonus targets, a clay bird popper, a rifle target 8 inches in diameter out about 50 yards, and another clay bird from a conventional thrower.

 

No one had a clean match. There was plenty of food; the pulled pork was devine and there were enough cookies that we could continue to snack after the shooting was done.

 

Door prizes were DVDs from Walmart, homemade wine, bolo ties. Category winners got a certificate and a wooden coaster branded with the WPW brand.

 

The rankings were the same as we see at other matches. Greasy Creek Slim won again (dang he is fast!!)

 

I think we will all go back next year. We had a heckuva good time.

 

Small targets, far targets, goofy targets. It is still fun.

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These certainly are "the good old days"..

 

I've been shooting CAS since 94... and there is NO WAY I want to go back to what we did back then.. (tiny targets.. handgun reloads all the time.. cos we only used 1... goofy ideas like making people shoot weak hand etc) IMO the game is SO much more fun now... and for everyone..not just the really good shooters..

 

The shooters handbook clearly indicates that CAS is a fast and close shooting game... Given that the recommended target size is 16x16 and the recommended distance for handgun is 7-10 yards (and that has stood for YEARS) it is hard to see how anyone coming in to the sport can be under any misapprehension as to how the game is played...

 

Want to shoot distant small targets?

 

Great..Have at it!

 

There are ANY NUMBER of existing shooting sports that already cater to that preference.. why do folks think THIS sport has to change to be like them?

 

I shoot IPSC (Revolver Division natch!) as well as CAS.. and that has all you could want in terms of precision (as well as all out speed).. Give that a try....it's a hoot!

 

The UIT events have handguns shot duellist style out to 50 meters... (ACK!) Give that a try if you like 'em "out there"...

 

No offence intended.. but PLEASE don't come to an existng sport and demand it be changed to suit you.. OK?

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I have only been in this sport now for about 5 years .

I love the sport and shooting single action guns.

 

Some of the old timers talk of the good old days of .

Smaller targets and stock guns.

 

They speak of very few clean stages .

And even less clean matches .

 

The game has become all big targets and tricked out guns.

And all about speed.

 

This is starting to look more like cowboy IDPA .

 

Just wondering if I am alone here or any of you feeling the same :blink:

 

 

Dude - I really don't think this game has changed much since you joined...why did you join???

 

So much BS about the old days...like the old days were some great times. Yeah...CAS took off like mad. Actually, it took off like mad once gun newbies realized they can play and have fun. That the game isn't about being some super-duper gun shootin fool.

 

If the game is that easy...then speed up a bit. Now how easy is it?

 

OY!!!!!!!!!

 

:wacko:

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Started playing this game back in 97 and have always heard about the "good old Days!" and just like any other "good old days" they are mostly wishful thinking of how it was supposed to be way back then - Think, leave it to Beaver.

 

When the shooting club i was in started playing cowboy (we were a IPSC club) it was explained that it was big targets close; now it has been like that 15 years and when the misses rejoined a few moths back her badge number was almost 94,000 that and me hanging around for 15 years tells me that it is being down right. Now as for those clubs that had them tiny targets at a distance, you might want to look at where they are or aren't today; I know of several cowboy clubs that shot "cowboy Silhouette" they are either defunct or the old guard has been brought to Jesus or ran back to the IHMSA range.

 

 

As much as the Wild Bunch can irritate me, their insistence that the targets be close and big is the correct one and is the reason we are playing cowboy today.

 

Contrary to what the "old timers" say you can miss a big target just as easy a tiny one, you just do it Faster. We see more clean matches because for many of us the goal has become shooting clean and not speed at all cost, we leave that to the young guns like Rattlesnake!

 

If you want to shoot little targets far away try Silhouette, if you want to hose and go shoot Practical. Each sport has it's own themselves and enjoyment and none of them need to copy the other to be good.

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Our club likes to mix it up a little bit. Big and close, not so big and close, some matching rifle and pistol sequences, some not, an occassional moving target or flyer. In fact, for our match coming up on the 16th, MC Ryder has written one stage with 16 x 16 targets at SASS minimum recommended distances, and another stage with 16 x 16 targets at SASS maximum recommended distances.

 

I don't know who the people are who say, "That's it! I'm never coming back here if I have to use my sights!" Nobody ever said that to me, but I've read it a lot on here.

 

As Madd Mike says, your mileage may vary.

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Some of us when we talk about moving the targets back we are just talking about moving them back to sass recommended sizes and distances. A few years ago around here they started getting closer and closer. Now it is not uncommon to go to a match and not see a pistol target over 4 yards and a rifle over 10 yards and these are 24inch targets its fun some times, but not always.

BT

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Our club likes to mix it up a little bit. Big and close, not so big and close, some matching rifle and pistol sequences, some not, an occassional moving target or flyer. In fact, for our match coming up on the 16th, MC Ryder has written one stage with 16 x 16 targets at SASS minimum recommended distances, and another stage with 16 x 16 targets at SASS maximum recommended distances.

 

I don't know who the people are who say, "That's it! I'm never coming back here if I have to use my sights!" Nobody ever said that to me, but I've read it a lot on here.

 

As Madd Mike says, your mileage may vary.

 

 

Variety? You mean you have VARIETY at Robber's Roost? Holy cow, what a concept! If you listened to some folks you'd think that concept was illegal. :rolleyes:

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LOL wow the pages are on fire ! :rolleyes:

 

I have not seen this much chat in a while .

Welcome to the show .

I thought most every one died and went some place els . :blink:

 

Now we have people talking again . :unsure:

 

I glad to see some cowboys still read.

There has been nothing on here for awhile . :huh:

 

It would be nice to see some small bounce targets now and then !

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LOL wow the pages are on fire ! :rolleyes:

 

I have not seen this much chat in a while .

Welcome to the show .

I thought most every one died and went some place els . :blink:

 

Now we have people talking again . :unsure:

 

I glad to see some cowboys still read.

There has been nothing on here for awhile . :huh:

 

It would be nice to see some small bounce targets now and then !

I thought it was against the rules to stir the pot, looks like that is all you are doing, then bragging about doing so.

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I thought it was against the rules to stir the pot, looks like that is all you are doing, then bragging about doing so.

 

Nope you got it all wrong .

I just would like to see some Marksmanship .

And I am not alone .

I'm just saying it.

Lets see some small targets and accuracy not just speed

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If the game is that easy...then speed up a bit. Now how easy is it?

 

OY!!!!!!!!!

 

:wacko:

 

I'd love to speed it up some but I am shooting as fast as I can withing the limits of my smoke inhibitors...... If I cannot see anything, I don't pull the trigger.... I aint got radar....lol

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Sturm Rooster, just where in Wyoming do you live. I can tell you all about the "good ole days" and the lack of returning shooters. Actually, a couple clubs are still shooting like the good old days and they never get more than a handfull of shooters. I did not see your name on the name of registered shooters at the state championship this weekend or any other Wyoming state championship, ever. See you at Hell on Wheels regional in Cheyenne.

 

 

LL' :)

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My how things never change. Or is it that they are always changing? The complaints seem to be the same. Some of the faces change. The sport continues to change. To what end is anybody's guess. There are those that measure success in how many members we have. There are those that measure success in how many attend a match. I remember a church that measured success in how many folks filled the pews each Sunday. More people in the pews made for more money in the offering plate. Of course, how many of those folks were saved didn't seem to matter much. I guess they forgot what the church was for in the first place.

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Nope you got it all wrong .

I just would like to see some Marksmanship .

And I am not alone .

I'm just saying it.

Lets see some small targets and accuracy not just speed

 

Oh great...another SASS member that want to make other SASS members learn to be better shots.

 

So I suppose you'd go to a bullseye match and bitch about needing some speed events????? No???? why not???

 

Do your thing and let others do their thing...like another poster said, go for head shots...oh wait...folks won't recognize the fact that you did head shots...no awards for ya...no glory. Guess that wouldn't be good enough for ya. Besides, you really are concerned that others aren't developing their marksmanship and heaven forbid that that happens.

 

OY!!!!!!

 

:wacko:

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I support smaller targets at longer distances and requiring black powder or substitutes!

 

Of course...then no one but folks like you would play...and then you'd be able to win all the fancy awards!

 

:mellow:

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Not bragin but 10 years before I won Mule Camp I won both Single shot an levergun Rifle cal sidematches at that shoot, there's a hellova lot of fast guns better than me. MC was one of tha first to say BIG AN CLOSE!

Rememberin back I remember shootin there from a dime store ELE horse while it was running, Pistol an Rifle an SG

 

 

RRR

 

Dang! That was my first Mule Camp, got on that E-lectric Rockin' Horse and blasted away makin' smoke. Came in 3rd Frontiersman!

(there were three Frontiersman :lol: ) 'Twas the first time I heard the phrase "choose you're category wisely"!

 

Duc :blink:

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Cowboy IDPA? You've got to be kidding me. If you think that because SASS targets are generally large and close and that is turning it into cowboy IDPA, you couldn't be more wrong. IDPA has targets from reach out and touch it range to 25 yards. The target distances and sizes and movement vary way more in IDPA than SASS. It's just as difficult to be a top shooter in either sport, but IDPA has more variation in targets and is less of a speed match. Smokin Gator

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Nope you got it all wrong .

I just would like to see some Marksmanship .

And I am not alone .

I'm just saying it.

Lets see some small targets and accuracy not just speed

 

 

What. Has SASS change from when you started????

 

If the marksmanship is so easy like it is. I guess you have a clean match every time. WOW.

Where do you shoot. I want to check scores to see this easy marksmanship of yours.

 

How many clean in a row do ya got??? I mean. It is so easy that there is no marsmanship so you should

be clean every time right??

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In case some of you don't know it, the corollary to "...there ain't any target too big or too close to miss," is; "there ain't no target small enough or far enough for someone to hit faster." The idea that smaller, farther targets will slow down shooters is contrary to Einstein's theory of relativity. For every ½ second the fastest shooter you know will have to slow down, you'll have to slow down ¾s if a second. For example, if a top ten shooter runs 5 to 10% faster'n than a middle of the pack shooter, I can assure you that the relative placing will remain the same.

 

SASS or it's predecessor, (just plain ol' "cowboy shootin'"), was NEVER intended to be benchrest with leverguns and sixguns. If you want to shoot thusly, set up your own matches. See Widder's post for probable results. If you wanna shoot with stock, unaltered guns... there's no rule prohibiting you. There is no category that requires modified guns. The entire SASS menu is available for you to partake from.

 

If you want to improve your standings... practice. It's the widely known secret to success in this sport. Claiming otherwise 'tis pure folly.

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Nope you got it all wrong .

I just would like to see some Marksmanship .

And I am not alone .

I'm just saying it.

Lets see some small targets and accuracy not just speed

 

 

And whose definition of 'Marksmanship' are we suppose to adhere to: Yours, mine, Mrs Cowgirl or little Amy's?

 

Will sub-minute accuracy satisfy the wants and desires of the disenchanted?

 

How bout loading up 30-40 grains of BP behind a 255 grain slug (the way it was 'way back when') in big .45 Colts and ring some 8" steel at 30-50 yards. Will that satisfy the definition of 'Marksmanship'?

 

If ya really want to dimenish the fun factor in this game, all ya gotta do is create a 'qualifying' criteria that many of our shooters are capable of but yet care little about on Saturday morning.

 

Its not all about speed either. Thats why new shooters can shoot on a posse with your top guns at local and major matches. Ya don't have to qualify for big matches. There are no 'minimum speed' requirements to have as much fun as everyone else.

 

Remember, its all a game and its all about entertainment.

 

If we as members can reflect that in our matches, it will continue to grow and florish.

 

 

..........Widder

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In saying that SASS is becoming IDPA, it is apparent that the commenter has not tried IDPA. The scoring zones are much smaller in IDPA. For example, a head shot is on a 6X6" part of the target. Guns are sometimes shot with the weak hand unsupported and sometimes strong hand unsupported. There is no feedback from paper targets. You only use one gun with very little transitions. Positioning is paramount; must stay behind the barrel, etc. There is also very little movement. Most stages are almost static.

 

I've just started out in IDPA and find it much more boring than SASS. Pasting targets is not really exciting. Am going to trying a revolver just to be different. Wild Bunch is far more fun.

 

I believe that one of the reasons I really like SASS is the ability to shoot 3 types of guns in a single stage. Firing 12 shots on a stage (typical IDPA) is over too quickly.

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What is now NASCAR used to be a very small group of folks who ran their stock cars for bragging rights. No doubt there are folks pining for those simpler times. If the evolution of that sport was somehow limited, it'd still be a small group of folks competing for bragging rights.

 

One of life's universal laws is that you can't contain or limit the evolution of any sport. One of the other universal laws is that anyone involved in competition will try to gain whatever advantage is they can. Rules are then established whose limits are constantly being pushed. And so it goes.

 

Evolution isn't always better, but It's the natural order of things.

 

When a sport/hobby/discretionary obsession :) stops pushing my fun button, I'll move on. Not there yet though. There's still plenty of latitude for me to play this game the any way I want.

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Back in the old days we had to walk uphill in the snow to every stage.

 

The targets were so small they would only last for about 3 shots before they had to be replaced.

 

The targets were so far away that cap and ball shooters would shoot a round, run down to where it hit the ground, pick it up, reload it and shoot it again. .36 shooters had to do it 3 times usually before they were in range. .44 shooters only twice.

 

We had stages where you had to carry a horse through a mud bog, stick a burr under his saddle and then get on him whilst he was buckin to shoot.

 

If you didn't cast your own bullets you got a SOG penalty.

 

We ran so much you'd wear out two pair of boots in a match.

 

The RO made you disassemble your gun on the clock to make sure it wasn't modified.

 

Yup. It was great. :rolleyes::P

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Back in the old days we had to walk uphill in the snow to every stage.

 

The targets were so small they would only last for about 3 shots before they had to be replaced.

 

The targets were so far away that cap and ball shooters would shoot a round, run down to where it hit the ground, pick it up, reload it and shoot it again. .36 shooters had to do it 3 times usually before they were in range. .44 shooters only twice.

 

We had stages where you had to carry a horse through a mud bog, stick a burr under his saddle and then get on him whilst he was buckin to shoot.

 

If you didn't cast your own bullets you got a SOG penalty.

 

We ran so much you'd wear out two pair of boots in a match.

 

The RO made you disassemble your gun on the clock to make sure it wasn't modified.

 

Yup. It was great. :rolleyes::P

 

and we had to bend over to pick up brass... :lol:

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