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Smaller targets with less speed !


Rooster Ron Wayne

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I have only been in this sport now for about 5 years .

I love the sport and shooting single action guns.

 

Some of the old timers talk of the good old days of .

Smaller targets and stock guns.

 

They speak of very few clean stages .

And even less clean matches .

 

The game has become all big targets and tricked out guns.

And all about speed.

 

This is starting to look more like cowboy IDPA .

 

Just wondering if I am alone here or any of you feeling the same :blink:

 

I wonted to see if we can get people talking .

And it did !

 

I would like to see some stages with some more bonus targets.

I don't care how fast some one can shoot the big target 12 feet away.

 

I love shooting with the guys at our locale clubs

It just seems like the hole thing is set up to go as fast as you can.

 

I have more time in two or three stages then some have for a hole day !

I started shooting Gun Fighter and Josie Wales to challenge my self.

I am not fast and never will be .

 

I do try to shoot as fast as I can.

I have picked up some speed learning transitions .

 

I will never be a Deuce Stevens or a Doc Noper or Ketchem Quick. ( This guys are dam good )

I will say if you ask, Every one of them will give you pointers to speed up your game .

 

I love the stages we have some times with the poppers.

I would like to see some small bonus targets further out .

 

 

 

 

Sturm und Drang!;)

 

The one club around here that uses the "small and far" "Cowboy Accuracy Shooting" philosophy is all but dead. They have gone from having over 100 shooters at their annual to 12 to 16. The "big and close" clubs have grown.

 

One interesting fact - when shooters from the Big and Close clubs do attend the S & F club's monthly, they always, invariably, win by large margins on both speed and accuarcy.

 

The occassional challenge target at a B & C match does make things more interesting, though.

 

Buena suerte, amigo

eGG

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I don't really men to pick on you, and I wish you wife and daughter well, Honestly I do. BUT...and its a big one, if we follow the logic that SASS has to be so easy that beginning shooters can do well at it, we end up dumbing down the sport to the lowest common denominator. I have been shooting CAS since the mid 80s and been a member of SASS since 88 (if I recall correctly). When I started, all the CAS shooters were experienced shooters. IPSC, small bore, trap, hunters, something. Now we get people who have no experience at all who come to the range and want to play. In a way I think that is great, why shouldn't they? Its a good game and they can learn as they go. But, why should the rest of us have to dumb down the sport to their level?

 

Dumb down? Whatever guy...your entitled to your opinion. I'll let them know you said that. Thanks for your support.

 

And how exactly is involving MY family dumbing down the sport?. Not asking anything more rhan what already is.

 

GG

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I don't really men to pick on you, and I wish you wife and daughter well, Honestly I do. BUT...and its a big one, if we follow the logic that SASS has to be so easy that beginning shooters can do well at it, we end up dumbing down the sport to the lowest common denominator. I have been shooting CAS since the mid 80s and been a member of SASS since 88 (if I recall correctly). When I started, all the CAS shooters were experienced shooters. IPSC, small bore, trap, hunters, something. Now we get people who have no experience at all who come to the range and want to play. In a way I think that is great, why shouldn't they? Its a good game and they can learn as they go. But, why should the rest of us have to dumb down the sport to their level?

 

 

Dumbing Down? So I guess you shoot clean every match? If not then let us know when and we will stop dumbing down SASS.

 

KK

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#1 thing to keep in mind is the future of this game. It has been proven over and over that if new folks can't hit the targets they will not come back.

 

What seems to work very well for us: Targets typically at SASS minimum but we like to mix it up quite a bit to keep it fresh.

 

Near-to-far, mixed target heights, shapes, types, layout, etc. Love the ocassional bonus as well. Always looking at new ideas and such so things don't get stale. From very quick "known names" to the really slow and all in between- attendence, the number smiles, and the amount of laughter says it must be working. ^_^

 

Perfect world? Never will be. Chuck Swindoll said, "I am convinced that life is 10% what comes my way and 90% how I react to it"- and that applies here as well. The alternative is to stay disappointed at best, grumbler at worst. If it's not exactly how you'd lay it out, figure new ways to challenge yourself. Like has been mentioned, shoot a different catagory or whatever. You might just find the big smile returning.... ;)

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#1 thing to keep in mind is the future of this game. It has been proven over and over that if new folks can't hit the targets they will not come back.

 

What seems to work very well for us: Targets typically at SASS minimum but we like to mix it up quite a bit to keep it fresh.

 

Near-to-far, mixed target heights, shapes, types, layout, etc. Love the ocassional bonus as well. Always looking at new ideas and such so things don't get stale. From very quick "known names" to the really slow and all in between- attendence, the number smiles, and the amount of laughter says it must be working. ^_^

 

Perfect world? Never will be. Chuck Swindoll said, "I am convinced that life is 10% what comes my way and 90% how I react to it"- and that applies here as well. The alternative is to stay disappointed at best, grumbler at worst. If it's not exactly how you'd lay it out, figure new ways to challenge yourself. Like has been mentioned, shoot a different catagory or whatever. You might just find the big smile returning.... ;)

 

Chuck Swindoll = good man ;)

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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We shot 7 stages. The handgun targets were small but close, the rifle targets required a sight picture most of the time. Half the stages had goofy targets... a 8" cowboy silhouette on a rail that you pushed back with rifle shots until it tripped a flag, then dump the remaining shots on a bigger plate. There was a mine car on an inclined track...trigger the target with the first shot, then hit a 6 inch spinner on top of the mine car for a bonus, then dump the remainder on the cart before it gets to the bottom of the incline. We had to turn a shovel of dirt after the beep on one stage, throw a rope on a horse silhouette after the beep on another. The seventh stage had 3 (3!!) bonus targets, a clay bird popper, a rifle target 8 inches in diameter out about 50 yards, and another clay bird from a conventional thrower.

 

Hmmm, that does sound fun. All matches I have attended have been fun for me but sometimes it is nice to have a place to go where things are done a little different....I do believe I'll be looking into visiting the WPW's in the future!

 

Thx for the info J-BAR!

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Dumb down? Whatever guy...your entitled to your opinion. I'll let them know you said that. Thanks for your support.

 

And how exactly is involving MY family dumbing down the sport?. Not asking anything more rhan what already is.

 

GG

 

 

I am taking a 24 year perspective on the sport. Your family is not the straw that broke the camel's back. I was not kidding when I said I wished them well.

 

What I was speaking of was the effect inexperienced shooters have had on the sport over the long term. During my years in the sport, lots of changes have been made under the justification of make things "safer" for inexperienced shooters. The other common reason for making the stages simpler was that older/injured folks couldn't do something (lay under a wagon etc.). Again, I am not blaming the new shooter or the older/injured shooter for the change. I am saying we should have offered them a simpler way to shoot a stage (which we always did with older/injured shooters) instead of taking the sport to the lowest common denominator.

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I am taking a 24 year perspective on the sport. Your family is not the straw that broke the camel's back. I was not kidding when I said I wished them well.

 

What I was speaking of was the effect inexperienced shooters have had on the sport over the long term. During my years in the sport, lots of changes have been made under the justification of make things "safer" for inexperienced shooters. The other common reason for making the stages simpler was that older/injured folks couldn't do something (lay under a wagon etc.). Again, I am not blaming the new shooter or the older/injured shooter for the change. I am saying we should have offered them a simpler way to shoot a stage (which we always did with older/injured shooters) instead of taking the sport to the lowest common denominator.

 

Maybe you should have rethought you sentence: "But, why should the rest of us have to dumb down the sport to their level?"...

 

Kinda points the finger at my wife and daughter and that is uncalled for.

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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Guest Winchester Jack, SASS #70195

I am taking a 24 year perspective on the sport. Your family is not the straw that broke the camel's back. I was not kidding when I said I wished them well.

 

What I was speaking of was the effect inexperienced shooters have had on the sport over the long term. During my years in the sport, lots of changes have been made under the justification of make things "safer" for inexperienced shooters. The other common reason for making the stages simpler was that older/injured folks couldn't do something (lay under a wagon etc.). Again, I am not blaming the new shooter or the older/injured shooter for the change. I am saying we should have offered them a simpler way to shoot a stage (which we always did with older/injured shooters) instead of taking the sport to the lowest common denominator.

well thank you for the heads up Doc, I didnt realize I was dumbing down SASS and ruining your enjoyment. Perhaps I should find another sport for my family to enjoy and you can get back to the good old days...

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Is anyone really sure that smaller targets (lets say 16 x 16 at 7 yds) equate to less speed and that larger targets (about 18 x 24 at 5 yds) equate to faster speeds?

 

Now let me throw you this little curve ball:

 

Stage 1 has the smaller targets at 7 yds and they are spaced only 1 ft apart.

 

 

Stage 2 has the larger targets at 4-5 yds but.....they are spaced 20ft apart.

 

Which stage do you think you will shoot your pistols faster and still have a high % of hits?

 

 

Just curious as to the answers I see for this.

 

 

..........Widder

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Is anyone really sure that smaller targets (lets say 16 x 16 at 7 yds) equate to less speed and that larger targets (about 18 x 24 at 5 yds) equate to faster speeds?

 

Now let me throw you this little curve ball:

 

Stage 1 has the smaller targets at 7 yds and they are spaced only 1 ft apart.

 

 

Stage 2 has the larger targets at 4-5 yds but.....they are spaced 20ft apart.

 

Which stage do you think you will shoot your pistols faster and still have a high % of hits?

 

 

Just curious as to the answers I see for this.

 

 

..........Widder

 

:P now that gives perception...:D

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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I am real about suggesting for folks wanting more challenge to go for head and splatter shots. For someone who confesses to minimal to no practice, just who are you competing against other than yourself? Everyone, but mostly a select few. If I went for head shots or splatter shots I would never beat them instead of rarely beating them. Nope, not doin' that fer sure so you kin quit suggestin' it already.Just a very few people can shoot fast enough to make up for a miss during a match. I don't think you are in that group. Slowing down slow enuff to shoot clean would make my total time a wash with my current method of blazing away.Anoter way to get your wishes of further target placement is to get more involved with match/stage setup. Volunteer to be a Match Director for either a monthly, annual or regional match. Once you get into a postion of authority on what a match should be, then you can dictate your target size and distance wishes. You will get to know the smell of tar & feathers too. LOL.

 

My bunch ain't never gonna allow me to be MD. Never. No way. No how. They know better.

 

Good luck,

 

 

Shooting a clean match is a huge challenge but shows more of a person who has control over their mental game. Controlling their emosions under mild stress of a match

 

 

 

 

 

Sounds like target size & distance is far enough for you already since you miss a lot.

 

Face it, you don't want a bigger challenge than you already have by declining to go for head shoots where you want to use your sights.

 

You stil consider a monthly as a do or die always must win type of match?

 

Look, I am not some disgruntled sorehead malcontent. I love the game just as much as I did when I started in 96. Otherwise I would not be shooting a match each and every Saturday. I always have a big time and enjoy cuttin' up with me pards as much as I do the shootin'.

 

BM you have made an assumption that I miss a lot and that is just not true. Had a coupla clean stages last Saturday. Clean matches are just not my thing so Yeah I am gonna miss a few or less. Anyone can shoot clean these days just by slowing down. Not my thing, not gonna happen. If I did that I would never beat the pards in my "league" that I want to beat. I am a middle to bottom third of the pack shooter. I know I am never gonna beat Long Hunter or Aberdeen so what. Those guys are not who I am gunnin' for. We all know who is gonna win the match as soon as certain truck(s) pull in the pasture. That does not diminish the fun of the rest of us.

 

Nope I am not gonna slow down, try for head shots and most assuredly not change categories. I shoot Senior period since I graduated from 49er. So all y'all can please QUIT with those unhelpful suggestions now. I enjoy CAS as much as the law allows and as much as anyone because I know the day is coming when I will no longer be able to spur the Agent Orange ravaged body out to the range. Until then, I will be out there whoopin' it up.

 

My opinion is the rifle targets are too close nowadays. I am allowed to have that opinion. Why is it that anyone who speaks out against one of our sacred cows gets castigated so unmercifully here? That is the worst part of the Wire, the dog-piling on someone merely expressing themselves.

 

Widder I tried cogitatin' on yer supposition but it made me pea brain hurt so I quit. If ye are talkin' pistol targets it don't matter and I don't care. A pistol target cannot be too big or too close for me to miss. We have one target called "Bigfoot" who is about 5 feet wide and stands 10 feet tall set at 5 yards and I have missed him.

 

But the rifle targets are a different story and will remain a pet peeve of mine, with or without anyone else's permission. The pendulum needs to start swingin' the other way and push 'em back.

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No one stops anyone from putting on a match with small or distant targets.

No one stops anyone from putting on a match with "Challenging" or "Interesting" sequences.

No one stops anyone from putting on a match with bonuses, stick horses or required lines said on the clock.

No one stops anyone from putting on a match where you use borrowed guns, throw knives for score or have to roll dice to determine your number of reloads.

Feel free - enjoy yourselves.

 

A lot of folks might even show up... Once.

But since I set matches that I hope folks want to come back to month after month, I set what my CUSTOMER wants and enjoys.

 

And on a selfish note, I am going to set a match that my 12 year old daughter will enjoy as well as myself.

Because if I have to get up at 5, be at the range by 6 - set steel for an hour or so and then shoot...

There is no way I am going to set a match that frustrates me or isn't fun.

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Creeker, of course ye are not. That would be insane.

 

But why is it such a given that uber close rifle targets are more fun than some out a ways more? To me they ain't. I am not talking side-match long range distances either, just a reasonable 15 or 20 and few farther yards. At two of the three venues I shoot at rifle sights are superfluous, unnecessary, and trying to use them just slows ya down.

 

I maintain that that is a sad state of affairs and it never should have de-generated to that level of non-rifle-like activity.

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But why is it such a given that uber close rifle targets are more fun than some out a ways more?

 

IMO - big and close allows a shooter to go right out to that ragged edge of out of control.

Rifle or pistol - generally faster is funner.

 

Its not a skills question - generally the guys and girls that can rip off sub 20's can do so because they know how to shoot

(whether the targets are close or far).

And rifle targets far away, doesn't change the standings - just the fun.

Is there any issue with rifle targets at 50 yards? Nope, the fast (read skilled) folks can still hit them, but some folks can't.

Is there any issue with 3 inch circles? Nope, the fast (read skilled) folks can still hit them, but some folks can't.

 

I write stages for Buckarettes and Grande Dames, new shooters and casual shooters.

 

My daughter is not going to enjoy a match with a lot of misses.

New shooters are not going to enjoy a match that frustrates them.

Casual shooters are not going to return to a activity that doesn't make them smile.

 

Watch a shooters face when they complete a stage that "Challenged" them - there is no joy. Even if they shot well, there is simply a sense of survival.

Watch a shooters face when they complete a stage that encouraged them to go faster than they ever thought possible. The smile, giggles and sheer joy that radiates off them is the reason I set matches the way I do.

I write matches and set steel to make folks smile.

 

A good shooter will understand the challenge is not the course of fire, but the speed at which you navigate the course of fire.

A little bit like a NASCAR race - going out on the track and turning left is pretty easy, if you drive slow. If you need a little more challenge, all you have to do is push down on the throttle a little more.

 

I'm not interested in making people better shooters or underlining some idea of what a firearm is capable of.

I am a match director and I am in the entertainment business.

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IMO - big and close allows a shooter to go right out to that ragged edge of out of control.

Rifle or pistol - generally faster is funner.

 

Is there any issue with rifle targets at 50 yards? Nope, I can hit them, but some folks can't.

Is there any issue with 3 inch circles? Nope, I can hit them, but some folks can't.

 

My daughter is not going to enjoy a match with a lot of misses.

New shooters are not going to enjoy a match that frustrates them.

Casual shooters are not going to return to a activity that doesn't make them smile.

 

Watch a shooters face when they complete a stage that "Challenged" them - there is no joy. Even if they shot well, there is simply a sense of survival.

Watch a shooters face when they complete a stage that encouraged them to go faster than they ever thought possible. The smile, giggles and sheer joy that radiates off them is the reason I set matches the way I do.

I write matches and set steel to make folks smile.

 

I'm not interested in making people better shooters or underlining some idea of a what a firearm is capable of.

I am a match director and I am in the entertainment business.

 

Well said ~ 100%

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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IMO - big and close allows a shooter to go right out to that ragged edge of out of control.

Rifle or pistol - generally faster is funner.

 

Its not a skills question - generally the guys and girls that can rip off sub 20's can do so because they know how to shoot

(whether the targets are close or far).

And rifle targets far away, doesn't change the standings - just the fun.

Is there any issue with rifle targets at 50 yards? Nope, the fast (read skilled) folks can still hit them, but some folks can't.

Is there any issue with 3 inch circles? Nope, the fast (read skilled) folks can still hit them, but some folks can't.

 

I write stages for Buckarettes and Grande Dames, new shooters and casual shooters.

 

My daughter is not going to enjoy a match with a lot of misses.

New shooters are not going to enjoy a match that frustrates them.

Casual shooters are not going to return to a activity that doesn't make them smile.

 

Watch a shooters face when they complete a stage that "Challenged" them - there is no joy. Even if they shot well, there is simply a sense of survival.

Watch a shooters face when they complete a stage that encouraged them to go faster than they ever thought possible. The smile, giggles and sheer joy that radiates off them is the reason I set matches the way I do.

I write matches and set steel to make folks smile.

 

A good shooter will understand the challenge is not the course of fire, but the speed at which you navigate the course of fire.

A little bit like a NASCAR race - going out on the track and turning left is pretty easy, if you drive slow. If you need a little more challenge, all you have to do is push down on the throttle a little more.

 

I'm not interested in making people better shooters or underlining some idea of what a firearm is capable of.

I am a match director and I am in the entertainment business.

Now that is the best answer I have herd yet .

A+ good response . ^_^

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IMO - big and close allows a shooter to go right out to that ragged edge of out of control.

Rifle or pistol - generally faster is funner.

 

Its not a skills question - generally the guys and girls that can rip off sub 20's can do so because they know how to shoot

(whether the targets are close or far).

And rifle targets far away, doesn't change the standings - just the fun.

Is there any issue with rifle targets at 50 yards? Nope, the fast (read skilled) folks can still hit them, but some folks can't.

Is there any issue with 3 inch circles? Nope, the fast (read skilled) folks can still hit them, but some folks can't.

 

I write stages for Buckarettes and Grande Dames, new shooters and casual shooters.

 

My daughter is not going to enjoy a match with a lot of misses.

New shooters are not going to enjoy a match that frustrates them.

Casual shooters are not going to return to a activity that doesn't make them smile.

 

Watch a shooters face when they complete a stage that "Challenged" them - there is no joy. Even if they shot well, there is simply a sense of survival.

Watch a shooters face when they complete a stage that encouraged them to go faster than they ever thought possible. The smile, giggles and sheer joy that radiates off them is the reason I set matches the way I do.

I write matches and set steel to make folks smile.

 

A good shooter will understand the challenge is not the course of fire, but the speed at which you navigate the course of fire.

A little bit like a NASCAR race - going out on the track and turning left is pretty easy, if you drive slow. If you need a little more challenge, all you have to do is push down on the throttle a little more.

 

I'm not interested in making people better shooters or underlining some idea of what a firearm is capable of.

I am a match director and I am in the entertainment business.

 

 

Ya nailed it.

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Guest Winchester Jack, SASS #70195

IMO - big and close allows a shooter to go right out to that ragged edge of out of control.

Rifle or pistol - generally faster is funner.

 

Its not a skills question - generally the guys and girls that can rip off sub 20's can do so because they know how to shoot

(whether the targets are close or far).

And rifle targets far away, doesn't change the standings - just the fun.

Is there any issue with rifle targets at 50 yards? Nope, the fast (read skilled) folks can still hit them, but some folks can't.

Is there any issue with 3 inch circles? Nope, the fast (read skilled) folks can still hit them, but some folks can't.

 

I write stages for Buckarettes and Grande Dames, new shooters and casual shooters.

 

My daughter is not going to enjoy a match with a lot of misses.

New shooters are not going to enjoy a match that frustrates them.

Casual shooters are not going to return to a activity that doesn't make them smile.

 

Watch a shooters face when they complete a stage that "Challenged" them - there is no joy. Even if they shot well, there is simply a sense of survival.

Watch a shooters face when they complete a stage that encouraged them to go faster than they ever thought possible. The smile, giggles and sheer joy that radiates off them is the reason I set matches the way I do.

I write matches and set steel to make folks smile.

 

A good shooter will understand the challenge is not the course of fire, but the speed at which you navigate the course of fire.

A little bit like a NASCAR race - going out on the track and turning left is pretty easy, if you drive slow. If you need a little more challenge, all you have to do is push down on the throttle a little more.

 

I'm not interested in making people better shooters or underlining some idea of what a firearm is capable of.

I am a match director and I am in the entertainment business.

Thats it and thats what drives the stages I write. I wrote all of the stages for our Feb match and I emphasised closer in targets, texas star, falling plates and some movement back and forth and downrange. Mixed in some different sweeps and a few challenging target positions. All in the name of FUN!!! My daughter was totally thrilled to get her first stage time in the 30's. Complaints? just one from one of the top shooters that the in close targets threw him off.

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IMO - big and close allows a shooter to go right out to that ragged edge of out of control.

Rifle or pistol - generally faster is funner.

 

Its not a skills question - generally the guys and girls that can rip off sub 20's can do so because they know how to shoot

(whether the targets are close or far).

And rifle targets far away, doesn't change the standings - just the fun.

Is there any issue with rifle targets at 50 yards? Nope, the fast (read skilled) folks can still hit them, but some folks can't.

Is there any issue with 3 inch circles? Nope, the fast (read skilled) folks can still hit them, but some folks can't.

 

I write stages for Buckarettes and Grande Dames, new shooters and casual shooters.

 

My daughter is not going to enjoy a match with a lot of misses.

New shooters are not going to enjoy a match that frustrates them.

Casual shooters are not going to return to a activity that doesn't make them smile.

 

Watch a shooters face when they complete a stage that "Challenged" them - there is no joy. Even if they shot well, there is simply a sense of survival.

Watch a shooters face when they complete a stage that encouraged them to go faster than they ever thought possible. The smile, giggles and sheer joy that radiates off them is the reason I set matches the way I do.

I write matches and set steel to make folks smile.

 

A good shooter will understand the challenge is not the course of fire, but the speed at which you navigate the course of fire.

A little bit like a NASCAR race - going out on the track and turning left is pretty easy, if you drive slow. If you need a little more challenge, all you have to do is push down on the throttle a little more.

 

I'm not interested in making people better shooters or underlining some idea of what a firearm is capable of.

I am a match director and I am in the entertainment business.

 

 

 

That's it in a nutshell

If you want to be just a shooter who goes from club to club and complains obut their stages, then that is who you are. A shooter

If you, on the other hand, run a club, set up the stages, and are relied upon to "keep em comin back" then you have no choice but to give em what they want.

 

And the proof is in big and close. Those are the clubs who have the largest turnouts.

 

Ya just can't contradict reallity!!

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................

Somewhere along the line I heard about the Grand Army of the Frontier (GAF). An international CAS group that has roots in SASS, NCOWS, NSSA, rendezvous, and living history. Honoring the military from the end of the civil was to just before WWI. They have whats called Musters. Action shooting with old style guns but the targets are a bit farther out sometimes (10 to 100yrds). There are still some close ones as well. Using military rifles or hunting rifles or SASS rifles and one handgun. Classes for soldiers and civilians alike. I find it a great contrast from the blast fast SASS game. I love both, wish I could do both more. Very little interest in GAF out here where many of the soldiers of the late 1800s spent time. If your looking for something different than the current SASS game.checkout the GAF. If your enjoying SASS just like it is ,then I hope to shoot with you someday.

remember,we'er allin this together.

Heres a sample of a different way of doing it.

 

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IMO - big and close allows a shooter to go right out to that ragged edge of out of control.

Rifle or pistol - generally faster is funner.

 

Its not a skills question - generally the guys and girls that can rip off sub 20's can do so because they know how to shoot

(whether the targets are close or far).

And rifle targets far away, doesn't change the standings - just the fun.

Is there any issue with rifle targets at 50 yards? Nope, the fast (read skilled) folks can still hit them, but some folks can't.

Is there any issue with 3 inch circles? Nope, the fast (read skilled) folks can still hit them, but some folks can't.

 

I write stages for Buckarettes and Grande Dames, new shooters and casual shooters.

 

My daughter is not going to enjoy a match with a lot of misses.

New shooters are not going to enjoy a match that frustrates them.

Casual shooters are not going to return to a activity that doesn't make them smile.

 

Watch a shooters face when they complete a stage that "Challenged" them - there is no joy. Even if they shot well, there is simply a sense of survival.

Watch a shooters face when they complete a stage that encouraged them to go faster than they ever thought possible. The smile, giggles and sheer joy that radiates off them is the reason I set matches the way I do.

I write matches and set steel to make folks smile.

 

A good shooter will understand the challenge is not the course of fire, but the speed at which you navigate the course of fire.

A little bit like a NASCAR race - going out on the track and turning left is pretty easy, if you drive slow. If you need a little more challenge, all you have to do is push down on the throttle a little more.

 

I'm not interested in making people better shooters or underlining some idea of what a firearm is capable of.

I am a match director and I am in the entertainment business.

 

Creeker, very well put!!

Its a shame that they're still some match directors (and others) that think that you don't have to use your sights on big close targets! It shows how little they truly know!!!

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I guess the easiest way to say it for me is I really enjoyed the sport more when a 16" square at 7 yards for pistol and a 16" square at 15-18 yards for rifle we're still considered fair and hitable targets. Of course some burner stages thrown in are fine as well just not every stage. Yes those are very hit table targets for new shooters, ladies and children. After all when this was the norm the sport grew faster than it ever has.

 

If every stage has to be big and close or shooters won't come back, why does Winter Range pack them in every year? Every year I hear shooters of all levels say Winter Range was the funest shoot they shot all year. To me that kind of goes against the grain.

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Guest Winchester Jack, SASS #70195

I guess the easiest way to say it for me is I really enjoyed the sport more when a 16" square at 7 yards for pistol and a 16" square at 15-18 yards for rifle we're still considered fair and hitable targets. Of course some burner stages thrown in are fine as well just not every stage. Yes those are very hit table targets for new shooters, ladies and children. After all when this was the norm the sport grew faster than it ever has.

 

If every stage has to be big and close or shooters won't come back, why does Winter Range pack them in every year? Every year I hear shooters of all levels say Winter Range was the funest shoot they shot all year. To me that kind of goes against the grain.

Well I attended a match last year where ALL of the rifle targets were at the MAXIMUM SASS distance. By stage 3 I was running about 4 rifle misses per stage and trust me, I am a SLOW shooter not a speed burner by any stretch. By stage 4 I pretty much wrote the match off. Didnt much care where I finished, didnt stay for the scores, just marked it up to a pretty sucky day. Is this supposed to be fun?

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Heres a sample of a different way of doing it.

 

 

WOW I am a big enough man to admit it when I was wrong !

After witching this I was wrong !

Speed is much better than This slow of shooting ( For Me ).

The way I shoot you cant hardly call it speed shooting .

But this is NOT what I was talking about . :blush:

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Well I attended a match last year where ALL of the rifle targets were at the MAXIMUM SASS distance. By stage 3 I was running about 4 rifle misses per stage and trust me, I am a SLOW shooter not a speed burner by any stretch. By stage 4 I pretty much wrote the match off. Didnt much care where I finished, didnt stay for the scores, just marked it up to a pretty sucky day. Is this supposed to be fun?

 

 

So you are seriously saying you can't hit rifle targets at 15-18 yards? How big were they? Is your rifle sited in? What kind of sights do you have on your rifle?

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Guest Winchester Jack, SASS #70195

So you are seriously saying you can't hit rifle targets at 15-18 yards? How big were they? Is your rifle sited in? What kind of sights do you have on your rifle?

sure couldnt that day, and they were further out than 18 yds. The stage setup was over 25 yards for rifle targets and they were 16" squares. Oh I did hit them (obviously) but averaged 3 to 4 misses on every stage. Last Sunday we had targets at 15 yds or closer and I missed ...none. Was the other match a bad day?? maybe, but it sure wasn't fun. As for my rifle, yes it IS sighted in and I regurally check it. But my point was the frustration that less skilled people can have with "challenging" targets as a STEADY diet. Thats all.

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So you are seriously saying you can't hit rifle targets at 15-18 yards? How big were they? Is your rifle sited in? What kind of sights do you have on your rifle?

 

SASS recommended distances for rifle are 13 to 50 yards. A lot of people would have a lot of misses at the recommended maximum yardage.

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Great post, Creeker!

 

But to add to that, realize that as you make the match more difficult, you set up the top shooters to beat folks even more. Resulting in more unhappy shooters.

 

Top shooters know how to hit the targets at their optimum speed. As you move down the ranking, folks have more and more problems with that.

 

So you will see the time differential between the top shooters and others widen exponentially s you move down the score sheet. So folks that were within say 20% of the top shooter (for example shooting 22 seconds instead of the top at 18 seconds) will be 25 to 30% away. And folks that are further down, will see an even higher increase in their time.

 

If the folks are all used to a relatively faster match, they will become much more frustrated as they see their relative performance going down. And they generally will not realize why - so they will really become discouraged.

 

Yup, we have run some matches specifically to test this. Local monthlies and some multi-day matches. I spoke with many of my pards that fit in almost all portions of the score sheet. They were generally frustrated but didn't know why they shot so "lousy" to use their own words.

 

And I ran the numbers and charted the relative differences compared to "regular" matches. The numbers matched the shooters frustrations.

 

Now, I do see folks wanting more variety in shooting. As we do more, we want more. A little variety in target placement is a good thing. A little movement and varied sequences are very good things. But generally smaller targets, at longer distances, and wider angles are generally not going to make the folks happy.

 

I somethings think that many (not all) that want such changes believe that they will improve their placement. But the experience shows the exact opposite.

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I recall a couple of test stages at a monthly a few years ago. Exact same stage, identical targets, except second stage had all target distances doubled. This match had almost 100 shooters in attendance. Number of misses on longer distance targets went up 4 to 1. Top ten shooters at the match had one total more miss (not ave just one more miss) on longer range targets, so slower shooters took a big hit. Number of other penalties were almost identical. Looks like some folks just want more misses. Match director told don't do that again by all.

 

All you match directors should try it.

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"I guess the easiest way to say it for me is I really enjoyed the sport more when a 16" square at 7 yards for pistol and a 16" square at 15-18 yards for rifle we're still considered fair and hitable targets. Of course some burner stages thrown in are fine as well just not every stage. Yes those are very hit table targets for new shooters, ladies and children. After all when this was the norm the sport grew faster than it ever has."

 

Why is the above comment followed by," I shot a match with rifle targets at 50 yards. It wasn't fun. Or "Targets at SASS maximum distances are not fun." 15 to 18 yards is a far cry from 50 yards or SASS maximum. Seriously, are large steel targets at 18 yards really that difficult for even new shooters to hit, with a rifle?

 

Then someone suggests that 3 inch targets can be shot by the good shooters, as if anyone is asking for 3 inch, distant targets. Others have described shooters asking for rifle targets to be at maybe 20 yards as wanting a "benchrest type match". Boy, I never thought I would have much of a chance at what I imagined benchrest matches to be, but I guess I might be able to stretch it out to 20 or 25 yards.

 

So, basically, a lot of SASS shooters want stages to be only those where you can hit the targets at the fastest rate that you can cycle the gun, with no hesitation. Or it's not fun. Too difficult if you have to occasionally take a full sight picture,including using the rear sight, not just putting the front sight in the middle of the target. Smokin Gator

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sure couldnt that day, and they were further out than 18 yds. The stage setup was over 25 yards for rifle targets and they were 16" squares. Oh I did hit them (obviously) but averaged 3 to 4 misses on every stage. Last Sunday we had targets at 15 yds or closer and I missed ...none. Was the other match a bad day?? maybe, but it sure wasn't fun. As for my rifle, yes it IS sighted in and I regurally check it. But my point was the frustration that less skilled people can have with "challenging" targets as a STEADY diet. Thats all.

 

 

I never mentioned 25 yard targets. I can see why you would have trouble. The rifle targets were twice as far as you are used to shooting.

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