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Smaller targets with less speed !


Rooster Ron Wayne

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"Don't know where you got your distances, but if 'that' is what you deam as acceptable, then write it up, set the steel and go for it. We will be awaiting your report back on how the shooters at the match YOU wrote, liked it. Hopefully good with flying colors"

 

Come on. People don't just want to say the words. You can do it.

 

Say it. " 16 inch targets for revolvers at 7 yards and 16 inch targets at 18 yards is to difficult of a challenge for me." repeat. It sounds silly when you actually say it out loud so people come up with all these other, "you want us to shoot 3" targets or you want us to shoot 50 yard targets", when they are actually don't want to even shoot large rifle targets at 18 yards. Be honest, at least instead of exagerating what some people are suggesting, (large targets a few yards farther).. Smokin Gator

 

 

Stop dodging and ducking and avoiding the topic. Go out and be a real life MD for a day and set the steel at the distance you think is acceptable and report back

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Then move those small targets closer. Seems pretty simple.

 

 

Oh I 'knew' that!!!!

 

But how much closer so Smokin Gator and others wouldn't think the targets were on top of them? LOL

 

Antisilpating you asking how small? Then give us a sliding scale of distance vs target size.

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At the Last Stand Florida's state match several years back there was two stages in a row where the targets were big and close but spread out and it was like single tap alternations so basically 2 really slow rifle scenarios,and a friend of mine a really good Match Director from another area said after shooting them two stages that "if one more stage was like that he was not coming back next year " and thank goodness there were not,he said "folks spend alot of money too make thier rifles go fast and to shoot like this is NO FUN !" even though the targets were'nt small or far it made you shoot slower = no fun.

 

I've played around with world record stage which are pistol at 7 yds 16" x 16" and rifle at 18 yds 16 x 16,IMHO I think that the pistol is fine ,but rifle at 16 x 16 at 18yds is a bit far for most to have fun ,we've set up this stage up to do records and than used in monthly matches and it really slowed down most folks and it wasn't really popular for the most part.

 

 

:D the sport is called cowboy ACTION shooting,action is going fast

 

 

Regards AO

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Oh I 'knew' that!!!!

 

But how much closer so Smokin Gator and others wouldn't think the targets were on top of them? LOL

 

Antisilpating you asking how small? Then give us a sliding scale of distance vs target size.

So if folks like to shoot 16 inch targets at 8 yards, if you only have 8 inch targets, all things being equal, the 8 inch targets should be at 4 yards, any longer distance and you have made them more difficult to hit. Remember there is a shoot somewhere in the US that uses about 4 yard SASS recommended size pistol targets, has 350 shooters and sells out in a week from application release, 7 months before the shoot. These folks know what is necessary to manage splash back. Did you ever wonder why this shoot is so popular??

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So if folks like to shoot 16 inch targets at 8 yards, if you only have 8 inch targets, all things being equal, the 8 inch targets should be at 4 yards, any longer distance and you have made them more difficult to hit. Remember there is a shoot somewhere in the US that uses about 4 yard SASS recommended size pistol targets, has 350 shooters and sells out in a week from application release, 7 months before the shoot. These folks know what is necessary to manage splash back. Did you ever wonder why this shoot is so popular??

 

I am not advocating 16x16 by xxft (meaning longer than todays close targets). Tell Mr Gator and the others.

 

I wonder if the average shooter today would even like 8" target at 4yds,,,thinking the majority of shooters I've seen do not fine tune their ammo/gun/sights to shoot a relatively close group size... sooooo, if your shooting ability(physical and mechanical) is a 4-5inch group, at close range, then a 8" target gets smaller.

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I dont mind pistol targets at sass suggested minimum

due to unsupported pistol shooters

duelest and gunfighters

but there aint nuth-in wrong with a few stages a tad bit more distant

 

all stages with rifle targeta at SASS minimum or less

is a joke

why bring a rifle to a pistol shoot......... :lol::lol::lol:

 

rifles were designed with longer barrels fer a reason ;)

 

simply the view from my saddle

 

not the view from "the view"

 

oh well

not too much longer and

this will all change back to

 

scoring :unsure::unsure:

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Look. All I'm saying is that if say half the stages had typical SASS sized targets (14,16,18 inch targets) at 5yds for revolvers and 10 yards for rifle and the other half of the stages were more around 7-8 yds for revolver and 15-18 yards for rifles, I don't think it would be so difficult that SASS shooters couldn't have fun. That's all. I like the close stages, just not all the time. Smokin Gator

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Look. All I'm saying is that if say half the stages had typical SASS sized targets (14,16,18 inch targets) at 5yds for revolvers and 10 yards for rifle and the other half of the stages were more around 7-8 yds for revolver and 15-18 yards for rifles, I don't think it would be so difficult that SASS shooters couldn't have fun. That's all. I like the close stages, just not all the time. Smokin Gator

 

I shoot whatever the MD puts out there and do the best I can. Don't like the stages? Then the complaining shooter writes them.

 

I eat whatever the cook serves and say it is good. Don't like the meal? Then cook it yourself the next time.

 

Lone Dog, start learning how to cook.

 

On election day, I vote. When someone votes, they have a right to be able to express their displeasure. If they don't vote, then they have no right to whine.

 

Just saying...

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The number of shoots I went to in my too short run of active SASS you guys would do in a couple of weeks if not just a month. But I noticed that my local clubs had your mentioned close big targets and I came one target shy of a clean match on my second shoot (if that tells you anything?). I did go to one shoot that had targets I'd never seen before. Small rifle targets at a good distance away, shooting off of faux horses and wagons and such, and a progressive tombstone rig that as you'd knock one over it revealed a smaller target further out and then smaller and smaller till the last was a really small tombstone at a good distance. They also had the combo targets like shoot one knock down shotgun target and a flyer would pop out for your next immediate shot. That was really fun shooting and a bit more than "big close targets". Smithy.

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Blastmaster. Stage writing is not the issue. If I was saying that I was bored with left to right, right to left, Nevada sweeps, etc., then, stage writing would be the issue. This is not the case. Take any normal, acceptable SASS stage that you run into at a lot of matches (the ones that are up close with big targets) and on some of the stages move the targets back a few steps. That's it. Not rocket science. Not some magical unique stage or sweep that no one's ever thought of. No 50 yard bonus soda cans. Just regular large steel targets, a couple of paces farther.

 

That's not turning it into a bullseye, benchrest match. A 15 second shooter will probably shoot a 16 or 17 second stage. 35 second shooter may shoot a 38 or 39 second stage. Still action shooting, not bullseye.

 

Smokin Gator

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Isn't all this relative to the individual shooter?

 

If you're an accuracy expert and have good eyesight, then some of our target sizes set up at max distances might not be a problem.

 

If your a speedster and your abilities to shoot fast exceed your abilities to stay focused on the front sight, then speed 'might' becomes your favorite way to play the game.

 

Another view of relative perception:

 

we all know that a .44 Mag is bigger than a .22 Long Rifle.

BUT, if the .44 is pointed away from you and the .22 is staring you in the face.....all of a sudden, that little .22 starts lookin like a 12 gauge.

 

I actually prefer (and have a higher % of hits) 8 or 10" circles at 4-5 yds than a 16 x 16 square at 7-8 yrds. Its an eye thing with me.

 

I play the game however its set up.

 

For some of those who think the stage writer has the final say-so on target distances, this isn't necessasarily true. Some clubs has a difinitive guideline as to how close targets can be placed to the firing line. The Stage Writer may write the scenerios, shooting sequences, type of targets, etc.....but at some clubs, there are guidelines as to the distances those targets have to be placed.

 

Best regards all.

 

 

..........Widder

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Ya know...I write the stages for Plum Creek...and if someone don't like the stages, I want to hear it.

 

And no, I won't be some a-hole and tell the person that if they don't like it, write the stages themselves.

 

OY!

 

:FlagAm:

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I have found that as a mach director, if I want to draw shooters, I have to put on a shoot that people enjoy. As a shooter, I attend shoots that I enjoy. That being said, I shoot with my wife and I have more fun when she has fun at a match and that factor is very important to me also.

 

As match director of my club I have the responsibility of tayloring the match to entertain the shooters who attend our matches. I have been asked by a couple shooters to put on a small and distant target match. I contemplated this request and did my homework. After some consideration I looked at the following factors; what was the motivation behind the request, would changing target size and distance positively effect attendance at our matches, and would my wife and closest shooting friends linch me?

 

I looked at the attendance numbers of other shoots in our state and found the numbers of people who shot at the clubs where the targets tend to be set further out and where they have smaller steel. I found that they had a core group of shooters that faithfully attend their matches. I looked at the clubs that have the highest attendance and found that those clubs run larger steel and set them closer. I polled the most frequent attending shooters to see if they thought the match was set up and run to their liking and found most wouldn't change a thing. And the most important feedback came from the women and oldest of our shooters, they liked the target size and distance.

 

The other factors that I found to important to ignore was trying to get to the root of the request for farther and smaller. I looked back over the match results paying close attention to the scores of those who made the request in the first place. What I found was the ones making the most fuss were shooters who rarely shot a clean match if they ever did. Further, they finished at the bottom of the score sheet every month. The other factors that made me want to continue with our formula was that those who made the request were shooters that only attended a handfull of matches every year. No Cattle, put it best at one of our meetings, "You can put on a nice match for two or three shooters or you can make a great match for fifty.".

 

I encourage anyone who would like to shoot an old school match to put one on. I told the guys at our club to pick another Saturday at our club and run a match like they want. So far there have been no takers.

 

KQ

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In the Four Corners, we have three clubs to shoot at. It must be in a blackhole in the universe of CAS, at all the clubs some stages or matches will be fast & close, big or small, some farther out. But everyone comes to shoot whats there. Men, women, children, champion shooters, just want to have fun shooters, and everywhere in between. Everyone comes and has fun, no matter what is set. Nobody complains about them. I suppose if they did, they would be handed a clipboard for next month. If someone has an idea for a stage we all try to make it happen. We all support each others ranges. I do believe that if shooters don't like what they are shooting, getting involved rather than complaining would be better for everyone. Just my 2 cents. El Mulo

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Ya know...I write the stages for Plum Creek...and if someone don't like the stages, I want to hear it.

 

And no, I won't be some a-hole and tell the person that if they don't like it, write the stages themselves.

 

OY!

 

This reminds me for a tip of the ol hat to any and all that have taken it upon themselves to be stage writers. For as long as SASS has been going on and the average length of time most of today's shooters have been shooting the game, It wouldn't seem to me an easy task to write stages that are different, maybe a little challenging, or just something new to folks that have pretty much "seen it all". My whole length of time shooting SASS I was a newbie and everything was new and a challenge. I would always try my best to personally introduce myself to the shooter who shot before me (my apologies to folks that fell into that category) as I was always bugging them. What's a Nevada sweep? or a Liberace sweep? It didn't matter how well I listened to the stage run down as each shooter would vary which target was shot with which pistol first and the targets saved for the last of the string (still keeping within the format given for the stage) By the time it was my turn to shoot I'd be so confused. So I'd camp out with my lead shooter and usually follow their lead. And think about it. There are only so many ways to shuffle a deck that only has 10 pistol, 10 rifle, and 4 or more shotgun rounds sent down range. I can imagine that the target distance is more up to the club than the stage writer working for free because he/she are nice people. Then when the targets did move out a bit I'm willing to bet that they'red be a contingent of folks bellering about "Who in their right mind decided to move those targets out?"

 

I'm reminded of this when I was shooting registered skeet and saw half a dozen men butt heads trying to adjust the flight course of the high and low house. The way our club was laid out, no matter how well the low house was adjusted, when the wind came up and got 5 or more miles per hour: The bird would fly slower (into the wind) and loft too high at the center stake. There would be folks that would want to readjust the settings after each person shot because the wind had changed and the targets were flying differently. Go figure. I loved shooting SASS the whole time my health allowed me and am very thankful for the folks that stepped up and were stage writers which probably more often than not ended up being a thankless job. Smithy.

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I have found that as a mach director, if I want to draw shooters, I have to put on a shoot that people enjoy. As a shooter, I attend shoots that I enjoy. That being said, I shoot with my wife and I have more fun when she has fun at a match and that factor is very important to me also.

 

As match director of my club I have the responsibility of tayloring the match to entertain the shooters who attend our matches. I have been asked by a couple shooters to put on a small and distant target match. I contemplated this request and did my homework. After some consideration I looked at the following factors; what was the motivation behind the request, would changing target size and distance positively effect attendance at our matches, and would my wife and closest shooting friends linch me?

 

I looked at the attendance numbers of other shoots in our state and found the numbers of people who shot at the clubs where the targets tend to be set further out and where they have smaller steel. I found that they had a core group of shooters that faithfully attend their matches. I looked at the clubs that have the highest attendance and found that those clubs run larger steel and set them closer. I polled the most frequent attending shooters to see if they thought the match was set up and run to their liking and found most wouldn't change a thing. And the most important feedback came from the women and oldest of our shooters, they liked the target size and distance.

 

The other factors that I found to important to ignore was trying to get to the root of the request for farther and smaller. I looked back over the match results paying close attention to the scores of those who made the request in the first place. What I found was the ones making the most fuss were shooters who rarely shot a clean match if they ever did. Further, they finished at the bottom of the score sheet every month. The other factors that made me want to continue with our formula was that those who made the request were shooters that only attended a handfull of matches every year. No Cattle, put it best at one of our meetings, "You can put on a nice match for two or three shooters or you can make a great match for fifty.".

 

I encourage anyone who would like to shoot an old school match to put one on. I told the guys at our club to pick another Saturday at our club and run a match like they want. So far there have been no takers.

 

KQ

 

I come back and back to Rockford because of the people...and the stages. Thanks for what you and others do in making it fun AND challenging.

 

GG

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I have found that as a mach director, if I want to draw shooters, I have to put on a shoot that people enjoy. As a shooter, I attend shoots that I enjoy. That being said, I shoot with my wife and I have more fun when she has fun at a match and that factor is very important to me also.

 

As match director of my club I have the responsibility of tayloring the match to entertain the shooters who attend our matches. I have been asked by a couple shooters to put on a small and distant target match. I contemplated this request and did my homework. After some consideration I looked at the following factors; what was the motivation behind the request, would changing target size and distance positively effect attendance at our matches, and would my wife and closest shooting friends linch me?

 

I looked at the attendance numbers of other shoots in our state and found the numbers of people who shot at the clubs where the targets tend to be set further out and where they have smaller steel. I found that they had a core group of shooters that faithfully attend their matches. I looked at the clubs that have the highest attendance and found that those clubs run larger steel and set them closer. I polled the most frequent attending shooters to see if they thought the match was set up and run to their liking and found most wouldn't change a thing. And the most important feedback came from the women and oldest of our shooters, they liked the target size and distance.

 

The other factors that I found to important to ignore was trying to get to the root of the request for farther and smaller. I looked back over the match results paying close attention to the scores of those who made the request in the first place. What I found was the ones making the most fuss were shooters who rarely shot a clean match if they ever did. Further, they finished at the bottom of the score sheet every month. The other factors that made me want to continue with our formula was that those who made the request were shooters that only attended a handfull of matches every year. No Cattle, put it best at one of our meetings, "You can put on a nice match for two or three shooters or you can make a great match for fifty.".

 

I encourage anyone who would like to shoot an old school match to put one on. I told the guys at our club to pick another Saturday at our club and run a match like they want. So far there have been no takers.

 

KQ

 

 

Well said.

 

Excellent points.

 

Great observations from other clubs and individual shooters.

 

Good research on what customers want, what alternative motives the special request people have.

 

Good advise to anyone that wants to put on an old school match.

 

You are a good Match Director.

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In the Four Corners, we have three clubs to shoot at. It must be in a blackhole in the universe of CAS, at all the clubs some stages or matches will be fast & close, big or small, some farther out. But everyone comes to shoot whats there. Men, women, children, champion shooters, just want to have fun shooters, and everywhere in between. Everyone comes and has fun, no matter what is set. Nobody complains about them. I suppose if they did, they would be handed a clipboard for next month. If someone has an idea for a stage we all try to make it happen. We all support each others ranges. I do believe that if shooters don't like what they are shooting, getting involved rather than complaining would be better for everyone. Just my 2 cents. El Mulo

 

 

Then there is Wimpy,,,, at 50yds... or he could be at 20yds. Could be closer too, if folks have the mind to move him.

 

Wimpy is a 4ft x 8ft cut out to be a cowboy target.

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Folks ;

There is also another type of SHOOTER out there ....

 

One that threw phyisical infirmaity Can Not move real fast by one who can shoot out the lights as far as accuracy is concerned ,,,,, And in this case moving the targets back a mite is going to allow these folks to narrow the gap between them and the TOP Shooters ....

 

A couple of weeks ago the were two stages that had rifle targets at 25 yards that were 6 inch squares ,,,,,, My miss count out of the 20 shots was None, Zero, Nada .....

Did I have to use my Sites ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Yes ,,,,,,,, Did every-one else,YEP or they missed ....

 

Did I have fun ,,,,,,, You bet !!!!!!

 

Did the young man (9 years old)miss more targets than the average of the posse nope ,,,,, He missed only 2 out of 20... Beating is Daddy by hitting 2 more than him ...

5 out of 15 shooters on the posse that shot those rifle targets Clean, 3 women (100%) and only 2 men ...

 

 

Would I want all the stages to be like this ,,,,,, Nope .....

 

But it didn't seem to cause problems for the ladies or the youngester,,,, And they had some fun teasing the men for missing ...

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

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<snip>And in this case moving the targets back a mite is going to allow these folks to narrow the gap between them and the TOP Shooters ....

 

<snip>

 

First off, I'm sorry about your infirmities (is that even a word?), I've more than a few of them myownself. But this particular fallacy needs a comment or two.

 

Ya ain't gonna narrow that gap to the true top shooter. Those folks practice, they have excellent fundamentals, and they know how to use their sights. Sure, it may take an extra few hundredths to line up a few shots, but that's about it at that level. If you want to ask me how I know, I can show you my practice log.

 

What you do do is make it harder for just about everyone else. If you go back and look at the scores and plot them on a bell curve, I'm sure you'll find I'm right (I did that once before). But you'll need to do the same with a match that's big/close so that you can have the comparison.

 

Now, personally, I like smaller farther targets. I don't care much for a steady diet of big/close. But that's my own peculiarity and neither here nor there.

 

Iff'n ya like those little targets out there, then I'd encourage you to look for a local Steel Challenge type match. There is a category for your 6-guns. It's a huge amount of fun and may fill that need for tougher shootin'.

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Folks ;

There is also another type of SHOOTER out there ....

 

One that threw phyisical infirmaity Can Not move real fast by one who can shoot out the lights as far as accuracy is concerned ,,,,, And in this case moving the targets back a mite is going to allow these folks to narrow the gap between them and the TOP Shooters ....

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

 

What a Fallacy.......TOP Shooters are TYPICALLY very ACCURATE as well.......so why would further and smaller narrow the gap? it wouldn't......TOP shooter defined as someone consistently winning.......not just able to manipulate a gun fast.....

 

Typically what smaller and further does is WIDEN the GAP between the Top Shooters and the rest of the field......

 

Stan

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Folks ;

There is also another type of SHOOTER out there ....

 

One that threw phyisical infirmaity Can Not move real fast by one who can shoot out the lights as far as accuracy is concerned ,,,,, And in this case moving the targets back a mite is going to allow these folks to narrow the gap between them and the TOP Shooters ....

 

Jabez Cowboy

 

For the few shooters that you mention, moving the targets farther back might close the gap slightly between them and the fastest shooters by slowing the fast shooters down. At the same time it will widen the gap between the fastest shooters and the majority of the SASS shooting population. The fastest shooters tend to be pretty good shots too ;) .

 

I've recently started writing stages and received some pretty good advice from our TG. He said to think about the slowest shooter at the club when writing a stage, and to make sure that they are going to have a good time. Maybe this would be considered dumbing down the sport to some, but I see it as making sure that SASS is the most inclusive shooting sport out there. I think that you can still throw a challengeing target or two in every now and then, as long as the entire match isn't that way.

 

Since Doc brought up Steel Challenge, I'll give a good example of why SASS shouldn't use small, far targets. I shoot in a monthly Steel Challenge match in my off weekend from CAS. It seems like every match, one or two new people will come, miss a lot of targets the first couple of stages, get frustrated, and leave never to be seen from again. Getting someone new to a match should be the hard part, not retaining them.

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Every time I see this topic I cringe inwardly. For two reasons. 1) Folks tend to say, "...back in the old days..." when they've been participating for 5-10 years. sssssshut up already, you ain't got a clue. There are MAYBE 5 people that post regularly that could legitimately use that phrase. But, like most things, we view the past thru rose-colored glasses. All the targets weren't 6" squares at 35 yards. In fact, VERY few of them were. Yes, even way back then, bigger, closer targets were the norm. We didn't ALL shoot .45s. The .38 Spl was by far, the MOST popular caliber. I have talked to a LOT of shooters over the years; probably more that have quit than are currently playing (that I get to talk with). By and large those that no longer play the game don't for one simple reason: they feel it has become simply a contest to see who can trigger their guns the fastest. (I got news for 'em, it was like that then, too!) And that comes from some of the games earliest, FASTEST shooters, guys that have plaques, buckles and such that are from championships. Perception, folks, perception. There were folks THEN that felt the game was too much about speed. Two final thoughts on this one; they're cliches, but still, oh so true. "Variety is the SPICE of life...", and, "the one thing in life that's not subject to change, is CHANGE itself."

 

2) Over the past 30+ years that this game has evolved is the sad fact that more folks have quit playing regularly or altogether, than are probably currently playing. Some have passed on, sadly enough, some of whom were instrumental in giving birth to this "cowboy action" game. Some from development of other interests. Some from financial issues (go out an try to equip a growing gamily with all the guns, accrutements and costumes. Some from sheer inflexibilty to adapt to an ever changing clime. Others, from the loss of friends they used to play with. That's truly sad as they're missin' out on all the NEW friends they could be making.

 

I miss my old friends. There isn't a single one (with the exception of Dusty Boddems in WB) that is still active from when me and 5 others started our club in 1990.

 

I'm guessing that everyone that has responded to this and other topics of its ilk has uttered, wrote or thought, at some time or other, "...I came for the guns and/or shooting, but I came back for the people!" And yet, here ya are whinin' that targets are too big and close; or that folks are whinin' that you think targets are too big & close! So, in truth, which is it? Are ya simply out to shoot, or out to visit with friends, old & new, and shoot a little?

 

How and what you get out of this sport will always be predicated on what you put in it. If you wanna shoot factory stock guns, there ain't no rule agin it; if you wanna take 60 seconds, or even longer, on every stage, there ain't no rule agin it. If you wanna shoot every targer dead center, there ain't no rule agin it; if you wanna shoot factory loads (so long as it doesn't exceed SASS maximums), ya kin do that too! Whinin', cryin' and bithin' will eventually cause heartburn and you'll quit. Takin' one source of irritation away from the rest of us. For that, I'll thank you and remember you fondly. Oh yea, in case you think I'm singling any one out out, I don't care if you whine about the targets bein' too close & big, or too small & far away, or too much or too little of one or the other; it'll still be, "... goodbye, it was nice knowin' ya, nice of you to drop by."

 

The one sure outcome of bein' a "complainer"? Ya get labeled "a complainer". If you wanna pull out in the fast lane, make sure ya got the hoss that can do it, otherwise pull back over and enjoy the scenery

 

And if your club doesn't give you enough vareity, come on out to LSFSC or CVV, we've small targets, big'uns, close'ns, far ones and all sorts in-between. And if you don't have a good time? Well... as my Tennessee mountain born and bred grandmother would've said, "well, bless yer lil' heart!"

 

Which reminds me... LRR, you're doin' a fine, fantastic, superb job; keep it up! If you think your Club officers are doin' a good job, TELL 'em so! I know of no better way to keep other folks willin' to do all the work needed to keep a club goin'.

 

Gr(who doesn't have enough time to shot regular, let alone do much else)iff

 

PS: "Fast does NOT necessarily equal "Action". Movement, however, coupled with left and right, forward when possible... now THAT'S action! IMNSHO.

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Folks ;

There is also another type of SHOOTER out there ....

And in this case moving the targets back a mite is going to allow these folks to narrow the gap between them and the TOP Shooters ....

Jabez Cowboy

 

I will relate a story.

And mind you - while I am a pretty fair local shooter, when you are talking big dogs, I am NOT a top shooter by any measure.

 

I attended a smaller shoot that emphasized smaller, more distant targets.

After the shoot was over, the match director asked me how I liked the shoot.

I said that I thought the targets were too far out and small.

His answer was "We do that to slow down you fast guys"

My response "I beat the 2nd place guy by over 100 seconds. Hows that slowing down the fast guys thing working out for you?"

 

I have never beat a 2nd place shooter by anywhere near that kind of margin in a big, close shoot.

I am not sure where the myth that the fast shooters don't know how to use their sights came from.

 

Or to to use another analogy...

Just because I think driving 100 mph is more fun, doesn't mean I can't parallel park.

It just means that parking is boring.

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I looked at the attendance numbers of other shoots in our state and found the numbers of people who shot at the clubs where the targets tend to be set further out and where they have smaller steel. I found that they had a core group of shooters that faithfully attend their matches. I looked at the clubs that have the highest attendance and found that those clubs run larger steel and set them closer. I polled the most frequent attending shooters to see if they thought the match was set up and run to their liking and found most wouldn't change a thing. And the most important feedback came from the women and oldest of our shooters, they liked the target size and distance.

 

KQ

 

 

 

Ketchum Please indicate what distances and size the targets are that you polled your shooters on. It will help make your point more understandable.

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It still amazes me when folks say that moving the targets out a little further or using smaller targets will "narrow the gap" between fast and not so fast shooters.

 

I've checked scores for many years and the opposite has always been true. If a top shooter slows up 10% (say from 16 seconds to about 18seconds), the slower shooter will slow up 20%. So that 35 second shooter will probably go to 42 - 45 seconds. So the gap gets wider. Plus the faster shooter may miss a little more, but most of others will miss quite a bit more.

 

If you actually want to "narrow the gap" you will have to have fast, simple stages with minimum movement. For example, doing a rifle dump or pistol dump will normally narrow the gap compared to doing regular or Nevada sweeps.

 

Having fairly fast stages are fun, but getting too simple and limiting movement is generally not as much fun for anyone. I know most of the top shooters (and most others) like some variety. They like a little challenge, like movement and like variety in target sequences, etc. But as Single Action Jackson used to say, "He could handle most anything" But he was more concerned that all his friends had fun and did not become frustrated.

 

I've sorta slowed, but a few years ago, when I shot in a relatively tough match where folks got procedures, etc, I would move way up in the standings. I was able to stay pretty steady and only slow down some and rarely make a procedure.

 

But did I enjoy those matches?

 

Nope.

 

I came to have fun shooting, not do "precision engineering."

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Ya know...I write the stages for Plum Creek...and if someone don't like the stages, I want to hear it.

 

And no, I won't be some a-hole and tell the person that if they don't like it, write the stages themselves.

 

OY!

 

:FlagAm:

 

 

^ I wish this single post could be made a Sticky. It's amazing how the art of accepting constructive criticism has vanished in today's society. You make a single little remark of how somthing could possibly be tweaked to make it better and people act like you're trying to skin them alive.

 

Thank you Phantom. Nice to see common sense still exists.

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Ketchum Please indicate what distances and size the targets are that you polled your shooters on. It will help make your point more understandable.

Colt,

 

We keep the pistol targets between 6 and 9 yards. The rifle targets usually are 10 to 12 yards. More often than not though, I would say pistols are set at 7 yards and rifle are at 10 yards. This is with our 14 and 16 inch squares.

 

Close for some and far for others. :rolleyes:

 

I do believe that there are diminishing returns on getting the targets too big and too close.

 

KQ

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I am not sure where the myth that the fast shooters don't know how to use their sights came from.

I agree with you folks. I don't know any specific facts or times just my own abilities and base my comments from those. If I jumped into a pool with Michael Phelps and challenged him to a race (any distance, fill in the blank on that one), he'd whip my tail and then some. Now lets figure out a way of handicapping the challenge to give me (average Joe) a fighting chance, say tying one hand behind our backs and then repeat that very same race. He'd not only whip my tail, he'd have the additional time to get a good nights sleep and go out and be tailored for a suit so he could be well dressed to wait for the following day's newspaper. People just don't think things through at all. Any handicap against your professional SASS shooter (not money but referring to ability instead) would be a serious, end of the fight, horrendous handicap to me, the average Joe shooter! The only way of "balancing" things out would be to go to a system like they use in NSSA skeet shooting. There it's by targets hit, not time so a SASS one would be the opposite based on time alone. People shooting a stage in say the teens or less would be in the top group and only compete against themselves. Folks that usually shoot stages in the low twenties would be the next group to only shoot amongst themselves and so on and so on until you'd get to my group the minute and then some folks. The top shooter would still beat my pants off, but I'd still be able to get recognition amongst my shooting peers (Ie. the ones that shoot with just about the same ability as I). That's a pretty fair system and I still have my "D" class plaque from one of my earlier shoots where I shot better than my shooting peers for that one particular day. I still treasure that silly piece of wood because it showed I had a really good run that day even though it was miles behind the top shooters from the match. Smithy.

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^ I wish this single post could be made a Sticky. It's amazing how the art of accepting constructive criticism has vanished in today's society. You make a single little remark of how somthing could possibly be tweaked to make it better and people act like you're trying to skin them alive.

 

Thank you Phantom. Nice to see common sense still exists.

 

 

So True my friend.

 

 

..........Widder

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Just for the record, my liking some of the stages to have large targets out just a few more yards has nothing to do with attempting to slow down faster shooters. It's simply for variety and a slightly different challenge mixed in with the close targets. Smokin Gator

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I will relate a story.

 

 

His answer was "We do that to slow down you fast guys"

 

 

 

I know a feller (RO /MD) that says to many.... shooters.....

"i like to place generously sized rifle targets really-really close, to watch the fast guys, jack out shells"

"that way I might be able to beat um"

 

geeeeeeese

same thing, only different

aint it?

:);):)

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I have found that as a mach director, if I want to draw shooters, I have to put on a shoot that people enjoy. As a shooter, I attend shoots that I enjoy. That being said, I shoot with my wife and I have more fun when she has fun at a match and that factor is very important to me also.

 

As match director of my club I have the responsibility of tayloring the match to entertain the shooters who attend our matches. I have been asked by a couple shooters to put on a small and distant target match. I contemplated this request and did my homework. After some consideration I looked at the following factors; what was the motivation behind the request, would changing target size and distance positively effect attendance at our matches, and would my wife and closest shooting friends linch me?

 

I looked at the attendance numbers of other shoots in our state and found the numbers of people who shot at the clubs where the targets tend to be set further out and where they have smaller steel. I found that they had a core group of shooters that faithfully attend their matches. I looked at the clubs that have the highest attendance and found that those clubs run larger steel and set them closer. I polled the most frequent attending shooters to see if they thought the match was set up and run to their liking and found most wouldn't change a thing. And the most important feedback came from the women and oldest of our shooters, they liked the target size and distance.

 

The other factors that I found to important to ignore was trying to get to the root of the request for farther and smaller. I looked back over the match results paying close attention to the scores of those who made the request in the first place. What I found was the ones making the most fuss were shooters who rarely shot a clean match if they ever did. Further, they finished at the bottom of the score sheet every month. The other factors that made me want to continue with our formula was that those who made the request were shooters that only attended a handfull of matches every year. No Cattle, put it best at one of our meetings, "You can put on a nice match for two or three shooters or you can make a great match for fifty.".

 

I encourage anyone who would like to shoot an old school match to put one on. I told the guys at our club to pick another Saturday at our club and run a match like they want. So far there have been no takers.

 

KQ

Very well put !

I love shooting at Rockford the shoots and the people are always great.

I would love to see some bonus targets some times .

The stages with the shotgun pop ups are ow some.

 

Like Deuce text me yesterday ,this is the same game it was when I started a few years ago.

Yes it is and I love the game .

 

I posted the post to get others input .

And it did just that.

 

Like I said in the beginning some of the older Pards has told me some story's of some of the old shoots ,like small swinging targets and shooting from a coffin or from horse back .

I said it sounds like fun !

The old timer said to me the sport now is like cowboy IDPA.( this was his statement to me )

It looks like some other shooters would like some stages with some small targets some times.

 

I have offered Meany time to help set up stages or shoots but no one ever calls .

I will support the guys with help any time I am asked for my help.

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It's starting to get really old the way the other side in this discussion continues to throw out irrelevancies. I am NOT whining. I am not a whiner. Merely stating my personal opinion that the rifle targets in general at most places are too durn close. Since when does stating a truly held opinion constitute whining just because you don't agree with the opinion? It DON'T. So can it.

 

Griffster I been enjoying this game since May 96 so I guess I get to speak. Let me tell ya, I like it all even places where the rifle targets are too durn close. It's all good. Never had a bad experience at any match anywhere. It's all good. So long as I am slinging lead with some pards, I am a happy old fat man.

 

BM, I been cooking all my life and I can cook just fine. Since that last wife left in 85 I have been elevated to chief cook and bottlewasher. I can also write stages. It ain't stage writin' I think needs to go to throwback mode. When the CRR moved all the rifle targets to THIS side of the creek without any member input, I thot that was a little high-handed. They could have left 1, or 2, or 3 of the 6 stages on the other side of the creek where they had been forever but NO all 6 stages had to come over. BAH!

 

Oh yeah, I can write me some stages. I have 11 shifts to work and then I am totally retired forever. I can write some stages but some folks ain't gonna appreciate 'em. We can carry the egg on the tablespoon thru the bat wings. We have a perfectly good jail cell with a locking door with a big ole Ole West ring of keys but we never use it anymore. We would if I wrote that stage. Start sitting on the bunk in the cell with the door locked. AT THE BEEP, grab the broom, hook the key ring, open the door... Yes, on the clock. If it ain't on the clock then what's the point? We can carry the egg or other goofy stuff off the clock but the opening of the cell door on that stage is the degree of difficulty and the same for everybody. It's amazing how fumble fingered ye kin get when the clock is spinnin'.

 

We would also get the ole saddle out of the shed and lash it to the steel horse who sits lonely and rusting where he was left on the firing line lo these many years ago...

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