Form 4473

[Trailrider #896]

Q. Since it would be easy to lie when filling out a Form 4473 for someone who would otherwise be unable to legally purchase a gun, what good is the Form 4473?

 When an as if a person is caught lying on a Form 4473, what penalties could be imposed?  This a general question for those knowlegible about the law. NO POLITICAL implications involved.   And, NO, it doesn't apply to me personally.

[Michigan Slim]

It's a chance to purger yourself and nothing more.

[Rye Miles #13621]

Well here’s what I know from working at a gun shop/range part time and dealing with 4473’s.

If you lie for example that you have no felonies, when it’s called in it would most likely be a deny! The fact you just lied on a Federal form could put you in jail but no one ever prosecutes. This has been a problem since the background check took effect. So in a nutshell the 4473 is a joke! That’s MHO. 

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

How many times have you heard that someone is being charged with lying to the FBI?  In many cases they are not charged with the crime the FBI was investigating they are charged because they lied during an interview.  The same with the 4473.  When people get busted for a gun crime they pull the 4473 to see if the person lied on the form.  So in addition to the charge for the crime they are also charged with lying on the form.  Sometimes the only thing they get convicted for is the lie on the form.  Remember in the good old days of Al Capone and Elliott Ness many mobsters were never convicted of murder or any other violent crime.  They were convicted for income tax evasion or lying on their tax forms.

 

Now what can be done and what is done are two different things.  There are only around 300 prosecutions for lying on the 4473 per year which is statistically insignificat.

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

Maybe no one ever prosecutes but the NH State Police did stall the call long enough to arrest the applicant on more serious state charges.

[Still hand Bill]

They used to run you for outstanding warrants and child support when the nics check was done.  Got hassled one time as someone with a similar name and the same birthday had an outstanding warrant.  Now I would guess it’s mostly to collect data to create a database of ownership.   The changes to move the buyer data and firearm to the same page make it easier to get the data needed for a registry.  
 

Imho the new questions are confusing and only add a way to purger yourself so they can add another charge of something goes wrong down the line. 

[Subdeacon Joe]

30 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

Now what can be done and what is done are two different things.  There are only around 300 prosecutions for lying on the 4473 per year which is statistically insignificat.

 

I remember a vice president almost bragging that the feds didn't bother to investigate, much less prosecute, those.  And in the next breath calling for more anti-civil rights laws aimed at gun owners.

[The Shoer 27979]

My understanding from different thing I have seen and read, ever since a certain person got a sweetheart deal( a Judge refused yesterday). That it is a 5 to 10 year sentence and that there have been people convicted for lieing on a 4473.

 

I have watched a bunch of house and senate video clips and reading about a certain individual that was given  a sweetheart deal for it

[Blackwater 53393]

The judge in that case has thrown out the agreement!!  Told both sides that they have to redo the deal to her satisfaction and that they have two weeks to get it done!!

[Trailrider #896]

"The boozer's in prison,

   And the criminal he isn't,

And only the rascals have dough!" - Ben Rumson in Paint Your Wagon

[Chantry]

My GUESS as to why people aren't charged for lying on the 4473 is because for a first offender the person is unlikely to do any jail time.  So lots of paperwork and

man hours invested in a crime that won't usually see a jail sentence, means you end up with prosecutors unwilling to bring charges.

 

Add to that is that getting someone on a 4473 violation isn't nearly as career enhancing as busting someone for dealing in illegal firearms or illegally manufacturing Class III weapons.

 

But perhaps I am a cynic

[El Chapo]

6 minutes ago, Chantry said:

My GUESS as to why people aren't charged for lying on the 4473 is because for a first offender the person is unlikely to do any jail time.  So lots of paperwork and

man hours invested in a crime that won't usually see a jail sentence, means you end up with prosecutors unwilling to bring charges.

 

Add to that is that getting someone on a 4473 violation isn't nearly as career enhancing as busting someone for dealing in illegal firearms or illegally manufacturing Class III weapons.

 

But perhaps I am a cynic

 

The truth is actually way more cynical than that.   The vast majority of crimes involving attempted purchases of firearms by prohibited possessors aren't even investigated.  So there is no AUSA actively choosing not to prosecute the issue--the LE agencies aren't even sending out an agent to interview witnesses and gather the facts. 

 

The lack of prosecutions inevitably follows if there's no evidence. 

[John Barleycorn, SASS #76982]

The penalties are printed on the top of every 4473.

[The Shoer 27979]

1 hour ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

The judge in that case has thrown out the agreement!!  Told both sides that they have to redo the deal to her satisfaction and that they have two weeks to get it done!!

I had forgotten about that when I posted my statement 

[Rye Miles #13621]

14 minutes ago, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said:

The penalties are printed on the top of every 4473.

Yes they are but very rarely does something ever happen. 

[John Kloehr]

5 hours ago, Trailrider #896 said:

Q. Since it would be easy to lie when filling out a Form 4473 for someone who would otherwise be unable to legally purchase a gun, what good is the Form 4473?

 When an as if a person is caught lying on a Form 4473, what penalties could be imposed?  This a general question for those knowlegible about the law. NO POLITICAL implications involved.   And, NO, it doesn't apply to me personally.

Someone lies for their aunt Bessie to buy her a gun where she actually pays for it, and she can not buy a gun for some significant reason... But you do not know about it and would not reasonably be expected to know about it... And there is some convincing reason for you to do this favor. Not out-and-out immediately criminal... Maybe nothing happens, heck most likely nobody ever finds out as the gun is never used and recovered. It is still in aunt Bessie's night stand. But even if found, maybe no follow-up.

 

Compare to you take money from your felon nephew and buy him a Glock 19. You know he is a felon because you are on the prison visitor logs. For two years, every month. Two months after "gifting" him the gun, your nephew is arrested for murder in a gangland shooting. And the gun is traced to you. 

 

I'm OK if this is where the 300 prosecutions per year fit in. But also don't lie for the other guy. Just don't.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

I love conspiracy theorists.

 

It would be hard to use the 4473 as a "database" toward confiscation and registry as the 4473 form NEVER leaves the FFL dealers premises unless the FFL forfeits their license.

I'm as much a supporter of "be aware" and "critical dissection" as anyone - but perpetuating falsehoods and paranoid narratives help no one.

 

The (current) 4473 is designed for:

Documentation of purchaser identification

Documentation of firearm identification

Documentation of firearm chain of custody

(and dates thereof)

Documentation of purchaser self recorded responses to current disqualification criteria

 

The current NICS background system exists to facilitate or deny the transfer of firearm.

While I have knowledge of the system being used to apprehend a person attempting purchase - it is most commonly used as a bureaucratic process documenting the transfer or non transfer of a firearm - not as a law enforcement apprehension aspect.

 

Incorrect information/ Errors on the form (by purchasers OR dealers) is often looked upon as clerical mistakes and without proof of intent - not treated criminally (as others have pointed out - the form can be confusing).

So while a singular lie/ error/ omission on the 4473 is quite possibly criminal - it is rarely going to be escalated criminally - the documentation exists as "supporting" evidence IF there is more to the story that requires additional proof of intent to deceive or commit criminal fraud.

 

But a stand alone 4473 issue is most likely going to go unpunished as without other issues or items; it would be too easy to claim error or ignorance and would entail great expense to prosecute; and would often lose in a court of law.

[Subdeacon Joe]

13 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

The (current) 4473 ...

Documentation of purchaser self recorded responses to current disqualification criteria

_______________________

The current NICS background system exists to facilitate or deny the transfer of firearm.

 

I think a lot of us use the terms as synonyms.   E.g. a prohibited person (felon)fills out the 4473 with a bunch of political promises, the NICS comes back denied.  "Yeah, he lied on the 4473 and got denied."

 

The whole point is that the felon attempted to purchase a firearm and nothing happens. The whole point of having to beg the State (government) for permission is supposedly to "keep gunz out of the wrong hands" and punish those who even try.  Not that most don't get their gats at Giuseppe's Late Nite Mobile Gun and Drug Shoppee, location varies, hours midnight until the police show up. But when a VP brags that the feds don't bother to enforce those laws past the denial (but do more often lean on someone who made an honest mistake, or has a name similar to a prohibited person), but also screams that we need more "common sense gun laws" it galls just a bit.

[Still hand Bill]

1 hour ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I love conspiracy theorists.

 

It would be hard to use the 4473 as a "database" toward confiscation and registry as the 4473 form NEVER leaves the FFL dealers premises unless the FFL forfeits their license.

I'm as much a supporter of "be aware" and "critical dissection" as anyone - but perpetuating falsehoods and paranoid narratives help no one.

 

Not really true anymore.  After 20+ years or when the license is given up they all get turned in to the atf, so they do not stay at the ffl until destroyed.   Used to be able to destroy them after 20 or 25 years, now they have to be retained and turned in.  One of the more recent regulatory changes.  

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

2 hours ago, Still hand Bill said:

Not really true anymore.  After 20+ years or when the license is given up they all get turned in to the atf, so they do not stay at the ffl until destroyed.   Used to be able to destroy them after 20 or 25 years, now they have to be retained and turned in.  One of the more recent regulatory changes.  

Interesting; as I have an operating gun shop and FFL (for over 20 years) - I would be interested in this regulatory change.

Can you cite the regulation change and the exact language for us?

 

Because to the best of my information; the current regulation actually says:

4473 forms are retained as follows

Forms that document an actual transfer of a firearm are retained by the FFL until they forfeit their license.

Forms within the last 20 years must be retained on premises - forms over the 20 year period "MAY" be stored in an offsite warehouse.

Forms for transfers that did NOT occur for any reason must be retained for a minimum period of 5 years.

While the ATF may be willing to accept these over 20 year forms (I haven't asked) - there is NO regulation or language that requires the FFL to transfer these forms to anyone.

 

It is helpful to have accurate information.

The ATF actually has a website which answers most of these inquiries and allows persons to verify actual requirements.

[Still hand Bill]

you are correct in the law says 20 years, the new rule 86 FR 27720 says retained until closed, so they eventually get turned over.  Unlike in the past where they could and should be destroyed after 20 years.    Not sure if the recent injections agains 86 FR 27720 on frame and receiver effect that part of the rule.   

[watab kid]

10 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Well here’s what I know from working at a gun shop/range part time and dealing with 4473’s.

If you lie for example that you have no felonies, when it’s called in it would most likely be a deny! The fact you just lied on a Federal form could put you in jail but no one ever prosecutes. This has been a problem since the background check took effect. So in a nutshell the 4473 is a joke! That’s MHO. 

so if thats the case - never prosecute , why have the law ? why pass any other laws ? why not go back to 1967 and skip all this BS , 

or is it just in place to locate through a data base ? in the event they ever get to confiscate ? 

all these states that have all these laws but nothing changes really cause the criminALS ALL IGNORE THEIR LAWS AND if not prosecuted why would that change ? its only the law abiding , tax paying , responsible members of society that suffer , 

[Ozark Huckleberry]

Near as I can tell, beyond the administrative purposes of the 4473, the qualifying questions basically give a buyer an opportunity to self-deny before the background check, with a little bit of warning thrown in. 
 

As far as prosecution — I don’t recall all the details but it seems there was a case in which a man bought a gun for his retired-LEO father, who gave him the money for it. The guy got prosecuted for making a straw purchase, even though the father could legally purchase the gun himself. Again, I’d have to go scrounging for the particulars from a few years ago. 
 

Re the ongoing whine about ‘universal background checks — short of instituting a gun registry, how would anyone distinguish between a gun bought before the checks were required, and one that should have been checked? Require people to carry bills of sale? Serial number look-up (wonder how many LEOs would like that)?

[El Chapo]

15 hours ago, watab kid said:

so if thats the case - never prosecute , why have the law ? why pass any other laws ? why not go back to 1967 and skip all this BS , 

or is it just in place to locate through a data base ? in the event they ever get to confiscate ? 

all these states that have all these laws but nothing changes really cause the criminALS ALL IGNORE THEIR LAWS AND if not prosecuted why would that change ? its only the law abiding , tax paying , responsible members of society that suffer , 

 

These sorts of laws are routinely enforced alongside other prosecutions.  So when a person is busted for a bank robbery, and also gets charged as a felon in possession, and they find out he also lied on the 4473 or whatever, or the gun came from a straw purchase, then and (basically) only then are the cases prosecuted.

 

It's not that the government is unwilling to charge and prosecute the cases.  It's that they can't investigate the cases themselves and the cases are simply not brought.

 

Even if the FBI denies a NICS transfer for an obvious and known reason, it is rare, extremely rare, that an agent would even follow that up with a knock and talk to interview the person responsible.

 

This should be brought up every time politicians want more gun laws, but let's face it, there is no political will to enforce the law we have.  One side wants more laws and the other side is content with merely leaving things as they are.  There's no push to repeal pointless bureaucracy even if it is a pain in our rears.

[watab kid]

boy you got that right - they pass laws , refuse to prosecute/convict but want more laws - i guess its just that they want us disarmed so they can play the samegames with our lives as the communists do and the nazis did , all the more reason to resist at all costs 

[Pat Riot]

I know that in Oregon and California that the information on the 4473 is directly sent to the state’s DOJ for processing. 
Technically, the state can go after you for falsifying that form as the info is taken from that form and the state will report you to the BATFE for the infraction. 
BUT…the state of CA, in recent years, has allowed people to get away with falsifying the 4473 and not face prosecution. The person doesn’t get the gun, but they get away with breaking state and federal laws because CA stopped sending info to the Feds, per my friends at my FGS in CA. 
 

FGS - favorite gun store 

[Still hand Bill]

23 hours ago, Ozark Huckleberry said:

 

Re the ongoing whine about ‘universal background checks — short of instituting a gun registry, how would anyone distinguish between a gun bought before the checks were required, and one that should have been checked? Require people to carry bills of sale? Serial number look-up (wonder how many LEOs would like that)?

What happened in Colorado was guns with a 4473 before the 100% law went into effect could and are sold without checks as there is no way to prove when the transaction occurred.  Guns first sold or transferred on a 4473 after the date could be traced and prosecuted, although I have never heard of it happening.   It’s a long game.   
 

if there is a database it is easy to track transfers, but without one, it would be incredibly hard to find each and every transaction as there is no place to start the trace.  A used transfer doesn’t have the starting point of the mfg like a new gun sale.  

[Subdeacon Joe]

21 hours ago, El Chapo said:

This should be brought up every time politicians want more gun laws, but let's face it, there is no political will to enforce the law we have.  One side wants more laws and the other side is content with merely leaving things as they are.  There's no push to repeal pointless bureaucracy even if it is a pain in our rears.

 

In Rhode v. Bonta (sp?) Judge Benitez has asked the State of California "Additionally, within 30 days of today, Defendant shall report to the extent ascertainable, on persons described in previous declarations as persons who underwent background checks and were identified as prohibited persons and indicate whether such persons were prosecuted and whether firearms were located and seized from such persons.(Court Reporter/ECR Juliet Eichenlaub). (Plaintiff Attorney Sean Brady, Konstadinas T. Morou). (Defendant Attorney Christina R. B. Lopez, John D. Echeverria). (no document attached) (gxr)" 

Obviously setting the stage for a ruling of, "If you aren't going to prosecute, what's the point of the law?"

[Waxahachie Kid #17017 L]

I reckon it would depend on what your first, and last name is, if you get into any trouble.  

If you get my meaning. 

'Nuff said.

 

[Rye Miles #13621]

A buddy of mine who is no longer with us always got delayed. His last name was Van Xxxx (don’t want to list his name) he never had a felony, drugs etc. he was a law abiding citizen. I think his name threw them for a loop.

[El Chapo]

On 7/27/2023 at 9:52 PM, watab kid said:

boy you got that right - they pass laws , refuse to prosecute/convict but want more laws - i guess its just that they want us disarmed so they can play the samegames with our lives as the communists do and the nazis did , all the more reason to resist at all costs 

 

The "they" are different branches of government, so it's easy to just point fingers at the other branch.

[watab kid]

its one government - if "they" dont play well with each other what is the point of having government , i love checks and balances but i hate that wqe "all" dont get treated fairly under the same laws , i think its time to revoke a lot of laws ...at least "we" wont get p[rosecuted when "they" dont 

 

im pointing fingers at hunter biden nationally and that ex legislators son here in minnesota that somehow flew here - rented an expensive SUV then miraculously got an illegal gun and a bunch of drugs then sped into the community causing a collision that killed five people , all in a matter of hours , MNHP clocked him at over 100MPH prior to that wreck , 

 

im sick pf law abiding citizens being put under excessive regulations that they then refuse to prosecute on those that break the law - we have had numerous shootings that get prosecuted as various murder charges and manslaughter but the gun charges get swept away , its not right - they should get convicted of both sentenced for both and serve time on both one after the other - in what ever order the judge decides on , but not get out till they serve it all , 

 

the only way a law is a deterrent is if there is a severe penalty and in my mind both are severe crimes - serve the time [they wont reoffend in that time period] the law abiding have the right to be protected .......................otherwise let us deal with it ourselves , we put our trust in "THEM TO DO IT RIGHT" 

 

and yes im really upset , if it were me that did these things id be in jail , 

 

edit - thats why people i know dont do it ............also becaues we are "GOOD PEOPLE" 

[Rye Miles #13621]

Okay here's a story that may or may not apply but a few years ago I got a call from an ATF agent. I was of course very suspicious but he gave me his number and the ATF number to verify him Long story short he was legit. He asked me what did I do with a Taurus 9mm handgun that was traced to me. I told him I won it at a gun raffle at my local gun club and sold it two weeks later at a gun show. In Ohio we only need to check the person's DL or State ID. It turns out the gun was found in Kentucky on a guy robbing a store. They traced that gun to the FFL dealer I went through to get the gun I had won. I was in no trouble but the ATF agent suggested that I get the person's name and address if I'm selling a gun to a stranger. That was the last time I sold a gun to a person at a gun show unless it was a private or licensed dealer.

[El Chapo]

On 7/30/2023 at 6:32 PM, watab kid said:

its one government - if "they" dont play well with each other what is the point of having government , i love checks and balances but i hate that wqe "all" dont get treated fairly under the same laws , i think its time to revoke a lot of laws ...at least "we" wont get p[rosecuted when "they" dont 

 

im pointing fingers at hunter biden nationally and that ex legislators son here in minnesota that somehow flew here - rented an expensive SUV then miraculously got an illegal gun and a bunch of drugs then sped into the community causing a collision that killed five people , all in a matter of hours , MNHP clocked him at over 100MPH prior to that wreck , 

 

im sick pf law abiding citizens being put under excessive regulations that they then refuse to prosecute on those that break the law - we have had numerous shootings that get prosecuted as various murder charges and manslaughter but the gun charges get swept away , its not right - they should get convicted of both sentenced for both and serve time on both one after the other - in what ever order the judge decides on , but not get out till they serve it all , 

 

the only way a law is a deterrent is if there is a severe penalty and in my mind both are severe crimes - serve the time [they wont reoffend in that time period] the law abiding have the right to be protected .......................otherwise let us deal with it ourselves , we put our trust in "THEM TO DO IT RIGHT" 

 

and yes im really upset , if it were me that did these things id be in jail , 

 

edit - thats why people i know dont do it ............also becaues we are "GOOD PEOPLE" 

 

You'd also be shocked to learn that people plead guilty to felonies every day in your area and don't go to prison.  Then they violate their probation and they still don't go to prison.  The entire system is a farce.  Laws are really only for those who want to follow them.  Everyone else has some kind of excuse.

 

And no, probation probably isn't fun, but it's nowhere near as "not fun" as prison.

[Eyesa Horg]

Seems the one's that get punished are the generally law abiding that made a mistake, sometimes unknowingly. The criminal element always seems to get off on some technically or plea bargain, and don't have to pay attorney fees.