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Wander N. Star SASSL #8856

Black Powder guns rule change

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Howdy,

 

Been away for a while but I still want to see changes made to the Black Powder class gun requirement to include the adjustable site pistols.

 

A decision was a long time ago that there was no advantage between the fixed and adjustable sights, so what is the problem.  Why can't black hawks be used in the BP categories? In Frontiersman you can now use different hammers in the Old Armies so why can't the adjustable site Old Armies be used in the class. 

 

So gather the  mob and string me up for this topic, I have tried for a long time to get this corrected but it never seems to go anywhere.

 

Allow adjustable sights in all BP categories.

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Throw your thoughts at Sassy and have her bring them up at the next TG meeting for debate/vote.

 

BS

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Not agreeing or disagreeing, but, following the logic that, "there was no advantage between the fixed and adjustable sights," why limit your rule change suggestion to just BP categories? Why not also suggest to remove the restrictions from duelist and gunfighter categories as well?

 

And, I doubt that either suggestion would go anywhere...

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Posted (edited)

I would suggest posting this on the TG Wire to get feedback from those who would be voting on any rule change.
The Territorial Governors could then poll their respective members on the issue.

It would also have to be approved by the combined WB/ROC as a discussion/agenda item to be sent out for a vote.

 

REF: https://forums.sassnet.com/index.php?/topic/298614-message-from-the-roc/

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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Hey good idea lets make all guns legal for all classes.

kr

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Kid Rich said:

Hey good idea lets make all guns legal for all classes.

kr

 

Expect a bit of dissent from those who may have gone to the expense of modifying "Modern" revolvers to comply with current class category regulations.

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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50 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Expect a bit of dissent from those who may have gone to the expense of modifying "Modern" revolvers to comply with current class category regulations.

 

 

My point exactly. Instead of becoming more liberal in what is allowed where, we should be being less lenient with exceptions and dilution of current rules. Maybe we could even work to reduce the # of rules needed.

kR

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In the words of my buddy NOZ!!!   Leave Frontiersman ALONE!!!!

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HEY!!  PW!  Do I get another Black Star for that??? :unsure: :lol:

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Kid Rich said:

Hey good idea lets make all guns legal for all classes.

kr

I could so rock those plates with my Sig SP2022 in 9mm. 

 

Well, maybe a polymer frame is too much, the frame should be metal...

 

I could so rock those plates with my Springfield Arms Range Officer Champion Operator 1911 in .45ACP.

 

Both have fixed sights. They are in dovetails but I never slide them at all. And the second one is a 1911, and those can be used in Wild Bunch so why not let me shoot it out of my level 2 retention kydex holster.

 

If I can bend, beat, file, and weld a sight I'm not sure from a competitive standpoint that it makes any difference if I can achieve the same result with a screwdriver or allen key.

 

But sometimes it isn't about the means, it is about the idea. And the capability of the times at the times.

 

I just got here, so my opinion carries no weight in the history of this sport and the reasons for the rules as they are. But I come from a competitive environment where speed can come from bolting on a red dot sight.

 

One of the draws for this sport (to me) is the admittedly artificial limit on technology. So I can see prohibiting adjustable sights not because there is no competitive advantage, but because adjustable sights were not possible in the portrayed era. And even if they were possible, they are not associated with the romance of the era.

 

I do see the limits in the rules have elements of artificiality. It is not authentic. It is not re-enactment. I am a newcomer and I am intrigued by the challenge of doing the best I can possibly do. This is not a cheap sport to get into, but it is a sport where skill can beat cubic dollars

 

Anyway, I think there is a glimmer of a point in what I wrote. Adjustable sights really don't matter as at the distances involved here it just does not matter as once set, there is no reason to ever adjust them again.  And by that same argument, they are not necessary.

 

So that leaves one last bit of consideration... The competitor who has a gun which does not fit the rules and wishes to take part in the sport. But no, the gun has prohibited sights...  so maybe some provisional exception? Well, I think my Sig SP2022 in 9mm and my  Springfield Arms Range Officer Champion Operator 1911 in .45ACP would then also qualify for the same exception.

 

No argument from me on sending the question to the TGs for consideration, and I certainly would accept a decision in either direction. I am saying I like the challenge built into the constraints.

 

 

Edited by John Kloehr
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Reminds me of what Noz says "leave Frontersman alone". I think we need more simplification in our rules.

kR

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

...

So that leaves one last bit of consideration... The competition who has a gun which does not fit the rules and wishes to take part in the sport. But no, the gun has prohibited sights...  so maybe some provisional exception

...

 

Not at the sanctioned match level (or at clubs that follow SASS rules):

 

Quote

 Failure to comply with the rules for any shooting style category will result in the progressive penalty for “Failure to adhere to the guidelines of the shooting category” (see penalties section). 

SHB p.6

 

Quote

 

Proceduralan unintentional action where the competitor does not follow the Stage instructions, can include actions/omissions other than firing a round (e.g.,  failure to adhere to category requirements).

Progressive Penalty – Procedural for the first infraction, Stage Disqualification for the second infraction, Match Disqualification for the third infraction.  Example: failure to adhere to category requirements

 

SHB p.46

 

But consider that...

Quote

AGE BASED CATEGORIES 

...

Age based categories carry the following guidelines:

- May use any main match revolver. 

 

SHB p.5

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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Having come into the game with adjustable sight revolvers, I have always wondered why in order convert a adjustable sight gun to fixed you had to weld and recut the frame.   Why couldn’t a simple bolt in u groove be acceptable.  It would have the look of a fixed sight as well as being no longer adjustable.   the weld and recut was simply too large a task for me and I ended up buying a second set of revolvers with fixed sights instead.  
 

 

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3 minutes ago, Kid Rich said:

Reminds me of what Noz says "leave Frontersman alone". I think we need more simplification in our rules.

kR

For me, grinding through them, it is not so much a problem of needing simplification as it is a problem of presentation.

 

One member provided me a chart which is not in the rules, but which really made the rules easier to understand.

 

And then as I am both considering black powder and reloading and maybe not being able to load my own shotgun shells initially, I did learn that I could still shoot in smokeless... But then a member here informed me my BP rounds must meet the power factor requirements for smokeless... Which makes sense, and I did look it up and find this is indeed true.

 

The rules really aren't bad, they just are not easy for a newbie to parse. And since the rules are just laid out as rules without explanation as to why they are what they are, they lack context and history.

 

I certainly am finding this forum valuable as the knowledge of the history and context and permutations and possibilities does exist in the community. It does not, as yet, exist in my brain but I'm sure I'll get enough figured out to not DQ out of stupidity.

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Including all of the history and/or reasoning behind the current rules would TRIPLE (at least!) the size of SHB. 

:wacko:

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If the sights really don't matter, then the change to allow adjustable sights on guns in those categories is really all about convenience.  In other words, it's just much more convenient for "me" to be able to shoot the guns I already have in a category that has traditionally prohibited them.  Very much in keeping the "ME Generation" thinking.

 

Frankly, have a little respect for the history of the game.  There's a certain logic in keeping the fixed sighted rules in those black powder categories.  Just what adjustable sighted guns were generally available on the western frontier in the black powder era?

 

This suggestion is kinda a slap in the face of those that have gone before, followed the rules and either modified their guns to comply or bought other guns so they could compete in those categories requiring fixed sights.

 

Yes, I see it as a further depredation of the spirit and intent of the rules.  Yes, it's a fantasy game... but it's much easier to maintain the fantasy when certain categories maintain a certain exclusiveness by keeping to the "old ways".  (Driftwood, I use that phrase as I know how displeased you are with 'historically correct")!

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Most shooters would probably agree that at current SASS matches it wouldn't matter for them if they used adjustable or standard fixed sights. But there are shooters who will not give up the adjustable sights. It's easier to get you poi/poa adjusted, of course. The big difference to them is the sight picture compared to a standard single action.

 

There are shooters that already had blackhawks and didn't want to buy additional guns but many purposely bought them for the sight picture. The rules have kept their use out of the more traditional looking duelist, frontiersman etc. categories. 

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To me, it's as simple as this:  black powder is a traditional propellant and adjustable sights don't look traditional.  Keep it that way.

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12 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Including all of the history and/or reasoning behind the current rules would TRIPLE (at least!) the size of SHB. 

:wacko:

It would, and I'm not advocating it should.

 

Just commenting it makes the rules a challenge to decipher for a newbie like me.

 

But the outpouring of support and responses on this forum and offers to help me figure it out are amazing!

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12 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Including all of the history and/or reasoning behind the current rules would TRIPLE (at least!) the size of SHB. 

:wacko:

 

We still talking about BP, or did we jump back to footwear?

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Okay!  NOW!!  About those &@%# so-called BOOTS!! :angry:........

 


 

:ph34r: Cat Brules

 

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Posted (edited)

How about just adding one more category. "Modern Frontiersperson". It would make all those Ruger Old Armies with adjustable sights worth more with the stroke of a pen. Or make all the fixed sight ones worth less.

Edited by Castalia,SASS#18915
Exaggeration for Clarification.
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How about we go back to the categories we had back in 1998. Whatever it takes to get more people into the game with whatever single action pistols they already own. 

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Blackpowder is a legal permitted propellant in every category.  Those who enjoy shooting blackpowder and substitutes in their adjustable sighted revolvers can do so in any of the categories that allow adjustable sighted revolvers.  What is apparent Is that some  folks want a plaque with a particular title on it without going to the effort of meeting that category’s requirements.

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As a full time Frontier Cartridge competitor (in most  every match I shoot) I say NO!

 

Like it or not, there is still a part of this game that requires more detail to looking a certain way, promoting a certain image.  We have categories like Classic Cowboy, B-Western and I would also put in that group the Black Powder categories.  I see it no different than trying to allow adjustable sights in Classic Cowboy.  Adjustable sights do not look the part.  If you want to compete in a category that requires going "above and beyond" the standard, you have to do that to play.  

 

As mentioned above, there are a lot of categories you can shoot adjustable sights and use black powder.

 

 

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3 hours ago, John Kloehr said:

Just commenting it makes the rules a challenge to decipher for a newbie like me.

John, do not feel like the "lone wolf" in the interpretation of the rules games.  They often present a challenge to many a long time competitors also!   While I'm generally not confused about the rules... the many changes over 35 years of competition... do however!

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PLUS ONE too Griff and J-BAR

 

PLUS lets make Necromancy of long DEAD HORSES a hanging offense.

 

Oh, forgot.  NO!!  BP Guns don't need adjustable sights.  Whiners do.

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Isn't it amazing how when a person makes a comment that a rule needs to be changed, all these Monday morning quarterbacks come out of the woodwork with all their expertise, wisdom, and opinions.  

Tell me when did:

  • Rubber soled boots come about?
  • How about belt loops and belts? (I know that has been bounced around before)
  • Sunglasses?
  • Some of the snaps and zippers on those fancy chaps?  When were those invented?
  • The lower contoured hammers on some of those revolvers.  Yes, they're legal.  But period correct - not.
  • And of course there is smokeless powder.  Not necessarily Cowboy.

This is supposed to be a game.  A game that is truly competitive, but a game none the less.

 

What harm would it cause to allow adjustable sights in the Frontiersman category??  More competition.  That should be welcomed.  

If the argument is strictly "it doesn't look Cowboy", then maybe we need to figure out exactly what "Cowboy" is.   

 

Now I need to open the safe and look at the Rugers with the SBH hammers, the Uberti '66s & '73s with short strokes, and the doubles with polished and beveled chambers.  Yep, sure feels traditional Cowboy.

 

Everyone stay safe,

BS

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21 hours ago, Kid Rich said:

Hey good idea lets make all guns legal for all classes.

kr

Well there ya go.

kR

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The zipper was patented in 1851.

 

Rubber boot heels were patented in 1899

 

Emperor Nero wore carved emerald glasses to watch the Gladiators in ancient Rome

 

Teddy Roosevelt wore trousers that had material folded over the top to form belt loops during the Spanish American War.

 

All sorts of modifications were made to the firearms of the 19th century!  We can’t say for sure that a hammer spur was never modified or what way it might have been modified.

 

And I repeat!! LEAVE FRONTIERSMAN ALONE!!

 

<_<  :angry:  :lol:

 

 

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image.jpeg.df468860b18bd96af65964a53bc19847.jpeg

 

Is this the adjustable sight that you are referring to in the OP?  I dunno, seems like a slippery slope to me.

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4 hours ago, Col. Cornelius Gilliam, SASS#5875TG said:

As a full time Frontier Cartridge competitor (in most  every match I shoot) I say NO!

 

Like it or not, there is still a part of this game that requires more detail to looking a certain way, promoting a certain image.  We have categories like Classic Cowboy, B-Western and I would also put in that group the Black Powder categories.  I see it no different than trying to allow adjustable sights in Classic Cowboy.  Adjustable sights do not look the part.  If you want to compete in a category that requires going "above and beyond" the standard, you have to do that to play.  

 

As mentioned above, there are a lot of categories you can shoot adjustable sights and use black powder.

 

 

 

Colonel Gilliam, 

Sir I agree with your position, as noted above in your reply.


I disagree with our colleagues’ such as Barry Slow, and those replies with similar views.....they are wrong.

 

I am, at this time, in a position where I cannot reply properly/easily, however, I will create a new, different topic related to this one when I can.
 

Cat Brules

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What ever happened to the 10 foot rule? 

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Posted (edited)

I am not advocating any rule change, unless it would be reverting to the rules we had in 1998.

I have Vaqueros that I shoot when in a category that requires fixed sights, and Blackhawks that I shoot in age based categories when I don't want to make so much noise, so I have the bases covered.

But please quit saying that there were no adjustable sights in the cowboy era.,  Colt made 902 Single Action Army type revolvers with adjustable sights before 1900.

They would have made more if the demand had been there, greed being what it is.

 

Duffield

Edited by Duffield, SASS #23454
Correction

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