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Buckshot Bob

Knock down power

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I’m going to start loading some ammo and want to settle on a rifle/pistol load that will work for everything.

And since I’ve never had to be concerned about not having enough power to knock down a plate before in IDPA 

or IPSC what do yo all consider a safe minimum in a 38

will a 125 gr going 800 always do the job ?

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Yes

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Your 125 grain bullets usually will knockdown CAS plates.  Be sure to hit the upper portion of the target and not the hinge.   Sometimes plates get out of calibration and are harder to tip over.  I keep some 158 grain factory loads in my gun cart in case I encounter such targets.

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As stated, yes.  .38 Special, 125 gr slug at 800 should generally do it.

Start off with that.  I wouldn’t load up a bunch of “heavier” ammo based on “What if’s?”.  Just see what it takes at the “home” range you wind up shooting at the most, and ask their officers how they designed their knockdowns to fall.

 

Most ranges will attempt to have their targets be similar to those at other ranges.

 

Cat Brules

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I load 38 spl 125 gr. bullets to about 725 out of my pistols.  The same round out of the rifle will be faster.  It will knock down anything set up to be knocked down at a SASS match.  I use to carry a 50 round box of 158 gr knockdown loads that were loaded pretty hot.  I shot them up and never saw the need to load any more.   About the only thing that might cause problems is a Texas star with stiff springs but I haven't seen anybody use one in several years.

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Bob, , how are those load on tables and props? Goes right through them, I imagine ?!

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1 hour ago, T-Square said:

Bob, , how are those load on tables and props? Goes right through them, I imagine ?!

His load is a 100 PF. We shoot a minimum of 160 PF in WB and do not do damage to props and targets. Any prop that is downrange is considered expendable and can be hit at will, regardless of the consequences. Now if you shoot the table with a 100 PF or any load you're done for the day anyway.

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125 gr bullet over 3.5 grains of Tite-Group, knocks anyhting down!

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1 hour ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

 Now if you shoot the table with a 100 PF or any load you're done for the day anyway.

Yes....now I think I remember......yes...yes  he was done for the day ! (sarcasm and vocal melody added for humor)

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3 hours ago, T-Square said:

Bob, , how are those load on tables and props? Goes right through them, I imagine ?!

I don't know about the 38's but a 12 gauge will go right through a plywood table.  And yes, they will make you sign the table right after you put your guns up.

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1 hour ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

125 gr bullet over 3.5 grains of Tite-Group, knocks anyhting down!

I was digging around in my reloading stuff and found 8 pounds of solo 1000 , from digging around here it seems people liked it 

hopefully it will shoot well , if not I have others I can try 

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32 minutes ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said:

I don't know about the 38's but a 12 gauge will go right through a plywood table.  And yes, they will make you sign the table right after you put your guns up.

So will a severely downloaded 38 S&W from a pocket pistol!

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QUESTION:

does knockdown power have to be greater than knockdown resistance or just equal.

If so, what would be a good % of greater power over the resistance?

 

..........Widder

 

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Posted (edited)

SHB calls for knock down targets to be set to fall from a standard commercial . 38 round (158 gn).  But I've seldom/never seen them set that heavily.  MDs are usually wanting shooters to enjoy the match without frustrations, so targets get set much lighter. 

 

Normally, my wife's  . 32 H&R mag pistols with 95gn bullets over 2.3 gn of Titegroup  takes all of them down, but hitting them properly above center can be pretty critical.  The tighter aiming takes her a bit more time, but they always seem to fall.  My experience is that 105 gn .38 pistol projectiles over 2.6 Titegroup or 130 gn.. 38 rifle projectiles over 3.1 gn of Titegroup takes them out every time.  Obviously target range also has an effect.  

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale

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Yep, we set ours to be just off balance enough to stand up in the match-day wind.   Usually our wind is out of the southwest.   Our down range direction is mostly east.  We set so the targets are not often blown over by the wind once we reset them.

 

I test them with a calibrated "heel of fist" bump.  If a hand bump doesn't knock them over, set them lighter.   If the wind is knocking them down, set 'em heavier.

 

Very precise!    GJ

 

 

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1 hour ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said:

I don't know about the 38's but a 12 gauge will go right through a plywood table.  And yes, they will make you sign the table right after you put your guns up.

If the shooter refuses to sign I sign for them. And, date.

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Posted (edited)

RMW I have shot Solo 1000 for 17 years in SASS> Sadly it is no longer made so I am transitioning to Cleanshot. 2.7 gr of Solo behind a 125 RNFP will give about 635-650 fps in a pistol and work fine on falling plates or even SG knockdowns. Enjoy the Solo, 8 pounds will last a long time.

 

Imis

Edited by Imis Twohofon,SASS # 46646
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Also, if your loads aren't knocking down targets. Set your ammo in the direct sunlight. The heat will increase velocity.

Some of our testing saw an increase of 150 fps, depending on the powder charge.

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21 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Normally, my wife's  . 32 H&R mag pistols with 95gn bullets over 2.3 gn of Titegroup  takes all of them down, but hitting them properly above center can be pretty critical.  The tighter aiming takes her a bit more time, but they always seem to fall.  My experience is that 105 gn .38 pistol projectiles over 2.6 Titegroup or 130 gn.. 38 rifle projectiles over 3.1 gn of Titegroup takes them out every time.  Obviously target range also has an effect.  

 

My wife also shoots .32 H&R mags.  She keeps some Federal factory loads in her cart for knockdowns.  They are more powerful than her handloads that are 100 gr bullets over 2.4 gr of N320.  People think she shoots .38s when she whacks the knockdowns.  Due to local high winds (today 30 mph gusting to 45) our knockdown targets often take more than a rodent belch to tip over.

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All of my loads for the 38 exceed the SASS specs for power factor. But, there are some targets that for what ever reason will need that little extra. I carry a box of handloaded "Rino Rollers" with 147 grain bullets and a few extra grains of powder. Seldom needed but nice to have to in the game. Will also load extra with the Cap and Ball if needed as I go along.

 

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3 hours ago, Assassin said:

Also, if your loads aren't knocking down targets. Set your ammo in the direct sunlight. The heat will increase velocity.

Some of our testing saw an increase of 150 fps, depending on the powder charge.

I am sure "Climate Change" will also be helpful ! 

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I usually have a pair of .45's in the cart - just in case.   Thumbs Up Emoji Large Clipart (#58522) - PikPng

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My loads, which I copied from others, are:

—  .38 Special, 125-grain, RNFP lead slug, 3.1 grains TiteGroup, Federal Magnum pistol primers.  
I began using magnum primers with that loading as “insurance” to help ensure positive ignition for any “variables” that may come into play, such as cold weather, etc.  I’m not absolutely sure mag primers help, but it makes me feel better.:)
 

Most other Cowboys’ reloads are likely so very close to that (bullet weight and charge), the difference probably doesn’t matter a whole lot.   I have never failed to knock down a target with that loading (the ones I actually hit, anyway).:P  
 

You will decide on what your loads will be.

 

Cat Brules
 

 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Imis Twohofon,SASS # 46646 said:

RMW I have shot Solo 1000 for 17 years in SASS> Sadly it is no longer made so I am transitioning to Cleanshot. 2.7 gr of Solo behind a 125 RNFP will give about 635-650 fps in a pistol and work fine on falling plates or even SG knockdowns. Enjoy the Solo, 8 pounds will last a long time.

 

Imis

Is that in a 38 case or a 357 , I’ll be using 357’s 

the solo is left over from when I used to shoot sporting clays , didn’t know they stopped making it until I joined this forum and 

started doing some research. I should have started earlier because I bought some trail boss which seems to get mixed reviews and some Tin Star which gets terrible reviews, which surprised me since I’ve always liked their powders in the past and this was supposedly just for CAS . 

Apparently I put my response in the quote, sorry 

Edited by RMW
Put response in quote

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1 hour ago, Cat Brules said:

My loads, which I copied from others, are:

—  .38 Special, 125-grain, RNFP lead slug, 3.1 grains TiteGroup, Federal Magnum pistol primers.  
I began using magnum primers with that loading as “insurance” to help ensure positive ignition for any “variables” that may come into play, such as cold weather, etc.  I’m not absolutely sure mag primers help, but it makes me feel better.:)
 

Most other Cowboys’ reloads are likely so very close to that (bullet weight and charge), the difference probably doesn’t matter a whole lot.   I have never failed to knock down a target with that loading (the ones I actually hit, anyway).:P  
 

You will decide on what your loads will be.

 

Cat Brules
 

 

Cat, that’s pretty close to my load. 3.5 grs of TiteGroup with 125 gr bullet, not much difference! ;)

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Posted (edited)

This is not really about knockdown power, but feed your rifle what it wants.  Don't try to make it eat your pistol loads.  That's an exercise in frustration.

Edited by Possum Skinner, SASS#60697
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Posted (edited)

my 38spl load isn’t far off from everyone else’s... only i increased bullet weights to bring p o i up from 125 - 158grn.   

usually @ 3.5 grns of titegroup with Federal Small Magnum primers.  

 

run perfectly through the wheel and lever guns

Edited by WOLFY
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5 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Cat, that’s pretty close to my load. 3.5 grs of TiteGroup with 125 gr bullet, not much difference! ;)


Yeah, Rye.....that’s what I was trying to say, I guess.  
Most Cowboy reloads are so often, very much alike, but vary slightly.

 

Oh, by the way.  If it’s pretty cold out, I suggest we carry one of those “shake&bake” small chemical hand warmers.  Activate it and put it under your ammo to help ensure positive ignition.  Those things last 6+ hours I think, so you can stuff the hand warmer in a 1-qt freezer bag and seal it.  Lack of air will shut down the hand warmer, and you could use it again.  Anyway, so much for that.....ymmv.

 

Cat Brules

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2 hours ago, Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 said:

This is not really about knockdown power, but feed your rifle what it wants.  Don't try to make it eat your pistol loads.  That's an exercise in frustration.

 

 

What Possum says .... It's the rifle that is more persnickety(technical term). Tailor your load to that & then try it in your pistol.

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9 hours ago, Cat Brules said:

My loads, which I copied from others, are:

—  .38 Special, 125-grain, RNFP lead slug, 3.1 grains TiteGroup, Federal Magnum pistol primers.  
I began using magnum primers with that loading as “insurance” to help ensure positive ignition for any “variables” that may come into play, such as cold weather, etc.  I’m not absolutely sure mag primers help, but it makes me feel better.:)
 

Most other Cowboys’ reloads are likely so very close to that (bullet weight and charge), the difference probably doesn’t matter a whole lot.   I have never failed to knock down a target with that loading (the ones I actually hit, anyway).:P  
 

You will decide on what your loads will be.

 

Cat Brules
 

 

Is it possible the mag primers could also save you a squib?  Just askin. 

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RMW I load the Solo in both .38 and .357. My 73 feeds better with .357 length and Jersey Bratt's Marlin wont hold ten round of .357 length so she gets .38. same recipe for both. I have toolheads set up for each on my Dillon so changing over is a 90 second job. Hope you have equal results. If you have questions or want to chat PM me and I will send my phone #.

 

Imis

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A long time ago, I had a occasional poor ignition with the load I was using. The bullets cleared, but were very weak.  I switched to magnum primers, and never had the problem again.  I have continued to use them. 

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Over the last couple years I have been playing a lot with my loads looking for the same answer as the OP. I'm a 105 man.....I guess that's kinda' like a Dapper Dan man without the head net......lol. Anyway I shoot 3.6 grains & 105 of Reddot in everything and very rarely have to reach into my little leather bag of tricks.

 

If I do it's usually for that target everyone is complaining about at the end of the match. When I run into those I have 158's and 3.1 grains of Reddot which i have tested and it has a little more authority. 

 

 

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