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Turkey Flats Jack

Enforcing the rules

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8 hours ago, Rooster Ron Wayne said:

I have found after 10 years of shooting SASS , That calls of any kind  came down to a Popularity contest  , 

 More then a safety call  !

Just Sayin .

Rooster 

 

5 hours ago, Snakebite said:

All I can say is that you must be shooting in the wrong places. I've seen spotters intimidated by certain shooters, and I've seen "Team Shooting" that yields a lot of missed calls, but I've not seen any Popularity contest calls. 

 

I have seen this; but only once in 20 years and it was long ago. Same posse, two shooters both hit the stand. One was called a hit and the other was called a miss. Of course it might have just been blind spotters. ;) I thought it was popularity based as the shooter who got the miss was a snob. The other was nice.

 

Snakebite you know them. I'll email you.

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After all that I'm still blown away someone would have there wife yell "stop" so he could get a reshoot...wow

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56 minutes ago, Black RZR said:

After all that I'm still blown away someone would have there wife yell "stop" so he could get a reshoot...wow

 

Well, maybe it was the Cadillac SUV that was on the line. as First Prize.

nest.gif

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9 hours ago, Black RZR said:

After all that I'm still blown away someone would have there wife yell "stop" so he could get a reshoot...wow

I used to see people intentionally bump the TO in order to get a reshoot. Shooters don't seem to be as intense anymore.

 

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10 hours ago, Black RZR said:

After all that I'm still blown away someone would have there wife yell "stop" so he could get a reshoot...wow

 

I was at a monthly match a couple years back when the score keeper decided to holler out someone's

name who needed to go to the loading table.

I was already blasting away when I hear what sounded like 'CEASE FIRE'.

I hesitated, looked at the TO and he said....."Keep going", of which I fired a couple more rounds

and heard it again..... "Cease Fire".

TO sez again....  "Keep going".

 

You guessed it..... the score keeper was hollering a name that sounded just like "Cease Fire".

 

I didn't ask for a reshoot but I did ask that particular score keeper to not yell out names while

a shooter is on their stage.

 

..........Widder

 

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There is a difference in people as well. If the shooter is intentionally breaking a rule to gain a competitive advantage that is one thing, but there are shooters there to just have fun and no matter what they do they are not going to be anywhere near the top of the list and they are OK with that. Yes rules need to be enforced but nothing in this world is black and white. Just my .02 cents

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I have to say I've not seen what I would call weak or varying "rule enforcement" from any experienced match officer.   A sincere effort seems to me to be made to be fair and up-front. Sometimes a stage rolls out in a way that requires two or more rules to be considered, which can have the appearance of wishy-washy enforcement.  But that commonly involves discussions among ROs, Spotters, and MDs, over something that is known to have actually occurred, and the call is made as a best concensus call, always (correctly) giving benefit of doubt to the competitor.   

 

I personally have not seen a case where a spectator or match official interfered with a shooter, when a reshoot was not offered, or granted IF ONE WAS REQUESTED.  I have seen a couple cases where a reshoot was waived by shooters who had brought insufficient ammo (there's a lesson in that). 

 

I see problems with poor spotting or other operational issues as another subject altogether, with an entirely separate set of causations and remedies.   Spotting issues are genuine mistakes, not rule mis-enforcement.  They might be linked to enforcement as common bitches, but they arise from a different set of problems.  There is good reason to have three spotters, and for the T. O. to make sure they are paying attention.   No TO that I have ever seen has been willing to allow dishonest or non-diligent spotter calls to continue.   But once made by two counters, the calls have to stand, unless they are appealed.  

 

We will always have those who try to game the process, and in reality, there may be little that can officially be done, except make more rules that nobody really wants.  

We will also always have some bad calls.  And we have a way to review/appeal them, if they are consequential.  Let's let the process work as it was intended, and keep our eye on why we came here in the first place-- having fun with friends.  

 

 

On 10/30/2019 at 9:39 AM, Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474 said:

 

I don't know why this got linked to the above post????? 

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale

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3 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

 

 

So is movement before the beep a "P", as in "engaging the stage in the wrong order"? 

Just asking. 

 

NO, the TO should make you restart without movement.

Edited by Tyrel Cody

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On 9/21/2019 at 5:21 PM, Hoss said:

At a match today, shooter came to line with hammer back on rifle. I was a counter. I brought it to TO attention. He told shooter SDQ. Shooter said not by SASS rules. I assured him it was. He and TO gas a discussion, then shooter shot the stage. I assumed they had discussed rules and then TO allowed shooter to shoot. After hecshot TO said no score, SDQ.  Shooter got made and said if it’s SDQ I’m going home. Packed his gear and left. This shooter had many years experience. He should know the basic rules. 

 

 

This "hammer back" issue is (in my opinion) a very good reason why it's important to have a dedicated loading table officer.  I've been to about 10 matches (still a greenhorn), and I think there has only been one where somebody DIDN'T get a SDQ for having a hammer back.    This mistake is just way too easy to make, since we come to the loading table with our action open; any minor distraction can cause a mental slip and forgotten hammer.  I've never been to a match with a dedicated loading (or unloading) table officer; you usually check the guy behind or in front of you - and are distracted by what you're doing yourself.  Frequently you have to flag somebody down to check you, and I've had times where there was just nobody there to do it 

 

 

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Very few matches I’ve ever been to have a LTO. Not saying it’s right, just saying it’s the way it is. I have a pretty set routine, lay my shotgun down, then lever my rifle twice, decock and lay it down, then pull my pistols. Load rifle first. I stick with the same routine every time. Limits forgetting!  I also eyeball every rifle at the table and let shooter know if they have a hammer back. 

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28 minutes ago, Bart Slade said:

 

This "hammer back" issue is (in my opinion) a very good reason why it's important to have a dedicated loading table officer.  I've been to about 10 matches (still a greenhorn), and I think there has only been one where somebody DIDN'T get a SDQ for having a hammer back.    This mistake is just way too easy to make, since we come to the loading table with our action open; any minor distraction can cause a mental slip and forgotten hammer.  I've never been to a match with a dedicated loading (or unloading) table officer; you usually check the guy behind or in front of you - and are distracted by what you're doing yourself.  Frequently you have to flag somebody down to check you, and I've had times where there was just nobody there to do it 

 

 

I did that once for a SDQ. There was a dedicated LTO.

 

IMO, alert people should be LTO and ULTOs as the potential penalty is huge. I know, it is on the shooter. However, why have one if they aren't going to be helpful.  At the ULT, that person should ensure the shooter never goes to their cart without going to the ULT.  Simple, yet overlooked.

 

Unfortunately, I've seen the least capable person on the posse man the ULT at annual.

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2 hours ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

NO, the TO should make you restart without movement; unless you managed to fire a gun and send a round downrange before he/she could stop you and restart.

 

You can get a restart after a round goes down range?  Or is that sentence worded confusingly? 

 

What is the penalty if the TO can't stop you in time, a P, right?  What if you start shooting before they even start the timer? 

 

 

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32 minutes ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

 

You can get a restart after a round goes down range?  No

 

Or is that sentence worded confusingly? Yes, I'll reword that.

 

What is the penalty if the TO can't stop you in time, a P, right?  Yes.

 

What if you start shooting before they even start the timer? Pretty sure that's a P also, but it might be a SDQ or MDQ.

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

no p for jumping the gun,, restart,,, if it's a problem that's different,,,

 

no penalty for starting shooting before the timer,, restart,,unless it's a often occurrence

 

same for a shooter asking for several restarts,,, when it gets old,, tell them this time it's for real

 

remember half of us are near deaf with ear plugs in to boot

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17 hours ago, Hoss said:

Very few matches I’ve ever been to have a LTO. Not saying it’s right, just saying it’s the way it is. I have a pretty set routine, lay my shotgun down, then lever my rifle twice, decock and lay it down, then pull my pistols. Load rifle first. I stick with the same routine every time. Limits forgetting!  I also eyeball every rifle at the table and let shooter know if they have a hammer back. 

+ 1

Routine makes for less Mistakes  .

Just Sayin .

Rooster 

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11 hours ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

no p for jumping the gun,, restart,,, if it's a problem that's different,,,

 

no penalty for starting shooting before the timer,, restart,,unless it's a often occurrence

 

same for a shooter asking for several restarts,,, when it gets old,, tell them this time it's for real

 

remember half of us are near deaf with ear plugs in to boot

Geeze Pard... I read that wrong and thought it said that Half of us were near death! :ph34r:

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I hate to see or actually hear a GF double discharge. Most of the time they start with a stagger between the shots for the first 6 but they get closer and closer together so the last four sound like two. If I can not hear both shots I will call them on it. The first time I will give them the benefit of dough for an AD but after that I will call it a P, SDQ, MDQ.

My biggest pet peeve is when an Outlaw does it and claims it is allowed in Outlaw. They forget that a few friends and myself started the Outlaw category and wrote the rules my own dang self and the very first one is all SASS rules apply. I hate that this was encouraged by a few people and will not run a clock or shoot Outlaw at any match where it is allowed.

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I'll add this to enforcing the rules,,,, years ago a shooter broke the 170 with shotgun moving against his body,, usually people wud give a warning and thats all,   I sdqed him,, the next month he thanked me saying,,"now, I know which way my shotgun is pointing"....

 

nuff said, except play by the rules,,, just do it politely

 

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My observation is that scenarios that have lots of movement allow shooters to work on skills that they don't normally have to think about compared to stand and deliver or one or two steps of lateral movement. The shooters that are accustumed to movement fair better than those that aren't used to lots of movement. In this area we move left to right and right to left. Which is a good practice for those that travel to other clubs. The shooters are usually warned before hand to be careful moving with the long guns. There aren't many 170 calls on S&D stages. The more options given to the shooters the higher the probability for an infraction for a lesser experienced shooter. I still believe everyone needs to stay 5 feet behind the shooter, excluding the TO, and let the shooter shoot. Give them room to run the stage. Then, access penalties if you see something from behind the shooter, not standing next to them.

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Range saftey is everybodys concern. That being said, the quickest way to loose the fun factor for yourself and everyone around you is to be "that guy". Local matches have some discretion usually built in so people of varying degrees of experience and abilities can come out, shoot and have fun...safely. This should not be the case for more formal events where rules should be expected to be applied in more detail. Is it really your place to tell the 80 year old shooter that his bellybutton is not located one inch below his chest? And does it really make that much of a difference? Sure there are some things that bother everyone, just don't go down the road where you are more concerned about what everyone else is doing that you forget to have FUN.

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3 hours ago, Hangem Hank said:

Range saftey is everybodys concern. That being said, the quickest way to loose the fun factor for yourself and everyone around you is to be "that guy". Local matches have some discretion usually built in so people of varying degrees of experience and abilities can come out, shoot and have fun...safely. This should not be the case for more formal events where rules should be expected to be applied in more detail. Is it really your place to tell the 80 year old shooter that his bellybutton is not located one inch below his chest? And does it really make that much of a difference? Sure there are some things that bother everyone, just don't go down the road where you are more concerned about what everyone else is doing that you forget to have FUN.

The problem with being complacent at local matches is that it can and does spill over to the more formal matches because folks aren't following to the given rules. 

 

There are ways to tell folks that they are out of compliance with the rules that don't make you "That Guy" and won't ruin anyone's day.    

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On 10/31/2019 at 11:09 AM, Mouse River Kid SASS#16901 said:

There is a difference in people as well. If the shooter is intentionally breaking a rule to gain a competitive advantage that is one thing, but there are shooters there to just have fun and no matter what they do they are not going to be anywhere near the top of the list and they are OK with that. Yes rules need to be enforced but nothing in this world is black and white. Just my .02 cents

I'm pretty sure everyone at the match is there to have fun, it's just what constitutes fun varies from person to person.  For you it might be full house loads and clouds of black smoke, for someone else it might be a 17 second stage, but it's still about having fun either way.

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1 hour ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

The problem with being complacent at local matches is that it can and does spill over to the more formal matches because folks aren't following to the given rules. 

 

There are ways to tell folks that they are out of compliance with the rules that don't make you "That Guy" and won't ruin anyone's day.    

Exactly right. What people are allowed to get away with at small local matches will in all likelihood be called at other matches. If they’re at a match that’s advertised “SASS rules apply” then the rules should be applied.

Edited by Yul Lose
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The rules are rules. If SASS rules/conventions apply... they apply. Monthly or otherwise. It is about maintaining THE INTEGRITY OF THE GAME!  New folks coming for the first time like @Cowboy Junky mentioned is HOSPITALITY!

 

INTEGRITY matters a LOT. 

 

BIG hugs!

Scarlett

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You can instruct instead of chastise. You don't have to be a hammer when you can politely teach.

Do you have to be a hammer sometimes? Sure, just don't make it a habit.

When folks learn what SASS rules are (yes, at our monthlies) they will be much better equipped to get through a large match with no question as to what they're doing is within the rules. Be nice... but enforce the rules. :D

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