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Chuckwagon McTaggart

Did I stumble across a good deal, or should I run the other way

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Posted (edited)

While traveling, I have come across a Winchester 1892 with 24 inch octagonal barrel with full length mag tube, in 38 WCF.  It has been reblued, with all of the roll marks on the receiver and upper tank are gone.  The bore is bright and the action feels right.  I think I want to buy it, but I'm not sure what potential problems i might face by buying a rifle that the serial number has been been removed. It's on consignment, priced at 750.00

Edited by Chuckwagon McTaggart

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Posted (edited)

On consignment where?  At a licensed gun store?  If its at an actual dealer what are their plans on transferring a gun that was made with a serial number but now does not have one?

 

Might be worth the time to check under the wood to see if the number was relocated.  I have come across quite a few older guns that have had bad rebluing/refinishing jobs that obliterated the serial number.  I asked a gunsmith/FFL friend about the legalities of such things and he said the ATF could assign it a new number in most cases but the trouble and time was often not worth it unless the firearm was particularly rare or sentimental.  Long story short I have always walked away from guns without serial numbers.  

 

In my opinion $750 is a lot for a badly refinished 92. 

Edited by July Smith
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Junk.

 

Leave it.

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8 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Junk.

 

Leave it.

Listen to Phantom-He's in the gun business, and is an FFL. ;)

Lots of good 92's out there. That one, ain't one of'em......

Why not post a WTB ad here in the classifieds? :huh:

OLG

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I'd be wanting it at a wall hanger price without a serial number.  In fact, in California, you can't even buy a firearm without a serial number because everything is "registered" nowadays.

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20 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Listen to Phantom-He's in the gun business, and is an FFL. ;)

Lots of good 92's out there. That one, ain't one of'em......

Why not post a WTB ad here in the classifieds? :huh:

 

I do appreciate the knowledge and experience that can be found here on the wire.  I'm not quite ready to post a wtb ad, I was only going to buy if it was too good of a deal to pass up.

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FWIW, guns did not always have and weren't always required to have a serial number. Is this an original Winchester? Might ask around on some antique gun forums then and see what the procedure is.

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run away!!!

 

you dont want to get caught with one of those 30 clip firing 1892 ghost guns!!!

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1 hour ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

FWIW, guns did not always have and weren't always required to have a serial number. Is this an original Winchester? Might ask around on some antique gun forums then and see what the procedure is.

If a gun had a serial number, it must maintain a serial number.

 

 

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1892 Winchesters had serial numbers.  I'd pass.

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23 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

If a gun had a serial number, it must maintain a serial number.

 

 

PLZ correct me here........

Serial numbers were NOT required until 1968.

OLG

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2 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

PLZ correct me here........

Serial numbers were NOT required until 1968.

OLG

They weren't.

 

But that doesn't allow for the removal of existing serial numbers on firearms that were manufactured before 1968.

 

Phantom

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7 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

They weren't.

 

But that doesn't allow for the removal of existing serial numbers on firearms that were manufactured before 1968.

 

Phantom

YUP-That's a BIG 'NO-NO'....

OLG

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There maybe a way to make the Number Show up.....

 

Jabez Cowboy

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8 hours ago, Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 said:

There maybe a way to make the Number Show up.....

 

Jabez Cowboy

Yep.  If there are even minute inclusions in the metal where the serial number was originally stamped, you could mag particle test that area and the serial numbers would "raise" possibly enough to make them out.

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Howdy,

Seems to me that is a tricky buy because you don't know if it is black powder only.

With no serial number you don't know when it was made.

One other thought is to buy it and take it apart and sell the parts on ebay or wherever.

Then toss the frame or recycle it whatever.

If the stock and screws and other parts look good it could be worth the fuss.

Best

CR

 

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

I'd be wanting it at a wall hanger price without a serial number.  In fact, in California, you can't even buy a firearm without a serial number because everything is "registered" nowadays.

Not exactly correct

There is no law effecting a firearm manufactured before 1968 to have a serial number. nor  is there a requirement to request on from the CADOJ. So while correct that everything in California is registered they aren't dumb enough to require people to kill the antique value of a gun getting a serial number engraved. 

I could through out a resume of BS of being an FFL holder but I've known far to many FFL holders that didn't know the law either. No I read the code. That's all, I just spend the time to find and read the law. 

Edited by Son of the Midnight Star

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Swabbing with 10% nitric acid will often reveal a serial number that has been polished out. I recovered one on a Winchester Model 50 shotgun that way about

25  - 30 years ago.

 

Duffield

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If you haven't run the other way yet ...... DO SO immediately.

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From the NRA-ILA site. Pay attention to the last one on the list. And as Phantom said, it's junk. Not because of the serial number, but because it was refinished with a heavy hand removing ALL the markings. Even if it retained the serial number the value would be less than half the asking price, IMNSHO.

 

"In addition to federal gun laws imposed by the National Firearms Act (1934), the Gun Control Act (1968), the Firearms Owners' Protection Act (1986) among others, most states and many localities have their own firearm restrictions in place. There are currently more than 20,000 firearms laws in the U.S., clearly more than enough to punish criminals who misuse firearms, but the laws have to be enforced. The following highlights existing criminal penalties for violation of federal firearms laws:

View Related Articles

  • It is crime punishable with 10-years imprisonment for anyone to alter a semi-automatic firearm to make it fire fully automatically.
  • It is a crime punishable with 10-years imprisonment for anyone to possess such an altered semi-automatic firearm.
  • It is a crime punishable with 10-years imprisonment for anyone to trade or sell such an altered semi-automatic firearm.
  • It is a crime punishable with 10-years imprisonment for a convicted felon to possess a any firearm.
  • The use of a firearm in a violent or drug-trafficking crime is punishable by a five-year mandatory prison sentence. A second conviction brings a 20-year mandatory sentence or life imprisonment without parole if the firearm is a machine gun or is equipped with a silencer.
  • It is a crime punishable by a mandatory 15-year imprisonment for a criminal with three prior violent or drug-related felonies to possess any firearm.
  • It is a crime punishable with 10-years imprisonment to transfer a firearm knowing that it will be used to commit a violent or drug-trafficking crime.
  • It is a crime punishable with 10-years imprisonment to transport or receive firearms or ammunition in interstate commerce with intent to commit a felony.
  • It is a crime punishable with 10-years imprisonment to shorten the barrel(s) of a shotgun to less than 18" or a rifle to less than 16".
  • It is a crime punishable with 10-years imprisonment to travel from one state to another and acquire, or attempt to acquire, a firearm with the intent to use it in a violent felony.
  • It is a crime punishable with 10-years imprisonment to alter the serial number of a firearm regulated by the National Firearms Act.
  • It is a crime punishable with 5-years imprisonment to possess a firearm with an altered serial number (or with 10-years imprisonment if the firearm is regulated by the National Firearms Act)."

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I haven't run the other way yet, I'll still be here till Friday morning.   I will however, take a hard pass on this rifle.  I appreciate everyone's advice. 

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12 hours ago, Son of the Midnight Star said:

Not exactly correct

There is no law effecting a firearm manufactured before 1968 to have a serial number. nor  is there a requirement to request on from the CADOJ. So while correct that everything in California is registered they aren't dumb enough to require people to kill the antique value of a gun getting a serial number engraved. 

I could through out a resume of BS of being an FFL holder but I've known far to many FFL holders that didn't know the law either. No I read the code. That's all, I just spend the time to find and read the law. 

Yeah...I know yer smarter than 99.86468% of the FFL holders around here... But the gun in question has its serial numbers essentially removed.

 

As a stoopid FFL, I won't touch it.

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14 hours ago, Marshal Hangtree said:

Yep.  If there are even minute inclusions in the metal where the serial number was originally stamped, you could mag particle test that area and the serial numbers would "raise" possibly enough to make them out.

Yes, there could be and if the BATFE did that, found the gun to be stolen, well, add possession of a stolen firearm to the list of felonies, along with the one about a defaced serial number. But like Phantom, I’m just a stupid FFL...

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30 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Yeah...I know yer smarter than 99.86468% of the FFL holders around here... But the gun in question has its serial numbers essentially removed.

 

As a stoopid FFL, I won't touch it.

Phantom I think you might be a little off on the%.

Please recalculate.

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4 minutes ago, Hells Comin said:

Phantom I think you might be a little off on the%.

Please recalculate.

Damn!!

 

Yer right!!!

 

99.86467

 

Rounding error... Sorry.

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That's what I came up with.  

All is good!

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I picked up a 76 at Winter Range A can't find a serial # on it.

                                                                                                                   Largo

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For me no serial number = no sale.

 

If everything else you said was identical but the number was there, 500 bucks tops, and that assumes it's a shooter.

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Yeah...I know yer smarter than 99.86468% of the FFL holders around here... But the gun in question has its serial numbers essentially removed.

 

As a stoopid FFL, I won't touch it.

I didn't say that Phantom and you know it. You just have your panties in a wad as usual. 

The statement was made see below That every firearm in California has to have a serial number. That is not correct. That was the only point. 
Yes a firearm that has had it's serial number altered in any way is illegal. but that was not the statement nor the response. Notice there was no argument from me on the removal of a serial number. I left that issue lay where it was. 

 

23 hours ago, Son of the Midnight Star said:

In fact, in California, you can't even buy a firearm without a serial number because everything is "registered" nowadays.

 

Edited by Son of the Midnight Star

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10 hours ago, Boggus Deal #64218 said:

Yes, there could be and if the BATFE did that, found the gun to be stolen, well, add possession of a stolen firearm to the list of felonies, along with the one about a defaced serial number. But like Phantom, I’m just a stupid FFL...

Both you guys need a lesson in reading comprehension. 

At no time did i say removing a serial number was legal. Go back and read what I quoted. 

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23 hours ago, Son of the Midnight Star said:

 

There is no law effecting a firearm manufactured before 1968 to have a serial number.

Actually, this is what you said and this is not completely true. If it was manufactured with a serial number, it is illegal to deface or remove it. That is law.

And if it's BS to have an FFL, do you have one or have you had one to know what BS is required?

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Boggus Deal #64218 said:

Actually, this is what you said and this is not completely true. If it was manufactured with a serial number, it is illegal to deface or remove it. That is law.

And if it's BS to have an FFL, do you have one or have you had one to know what BS is required?


No you can't add your inference to my statement. The statement in question was "all firearms in California have to have a serial number because everything is registered" And that is not the case. 

There were many firearms made prior to 1968 that had serial numbers and yes if one of those serial numbers was removed after 1968 then it would be illegal. It was not illegal to remove the serial number off a firearm prior to 1968 GCA. How would someone know when the serial number was removed would be impossible to prove in court so that point is moot. 

As to whether or not I have an FFL is no consequence to the discussion at hand. That statement was made due to the fact that I have run into more FFL's that do not know the law nor care to look things up. Yet this is there business to know firearms laws as they apply to how they do business. There was no calling anyone stupid. just a lack of people in my area that fail to do their job. 

Edited by Son of the Midnight Star

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Actually, everything is California is not required to be registered. There were many firearms purchased prior to the 1993? or so law banning person to person private sales. Everything now has to go through an FFL, but it was not always so, and there is no law saying that those prior firearms have to now be registered.

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