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Croc Holiday

Black powder question...

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So, I'd like to give BP a go.  I like the low thump and flame of real BP... a lot...  But, being new to loading, I'm thinking a substitute would be a safer starting point for me.  Was hoping someone could turn me on to a powder has that low thump like real BP does.  Any info would be most appreciated. 

 

Thanks!

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APP or Black MZ

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Substitutes are not necessarily safer. Read the MSDS sheets on BP and any of the subs. Some of the subs the fumes are pretty bad also the handling is not as safe as BP.

kR

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BP is pretty easy to work with.  Pyrodex, a black powder substitute, on the other hand is absolutely awful, with fouling that is much harder to clean.

 

Other substitutes like 777 are easy to clean and use, but can be harder to load properly.  Learn to use real BP and you will be unlikely to want to use subs.

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Hmmm...  Why are folks so scared of it.  Reading about it on the web you’d think it’s just short of plutonium.  

 

Maybe I’ll start there then.  It’s what I’d prefer anyway.  

 

Do you all hand load powder or use a measurer on a loader?

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1 minute ago, Tyrel Cody said:

REAL BP, no flame with the fake stuff. Ask @Jed I. Knight, SASS #36423 if he can show the ropes starting out :D

 

 

 

Welcome to the Dark Side, there is no turning back now.

 

Already pestering him :D

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I started with real BP and it is not that hard to reload with. I shoot cap & ball and tried Black MZ because it was cheap and not a good decision on my part. I load cartridges by hand as well as my brass shotgun shells. I know some load BP with a MEC loader but I have not tried loading with my MEC yet. If you shoot with anyone who reloads black powder just ask him for some advise. Welcome to the black side and have fun. DC

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3 minutes ago, Croc Holiday said:

Hmmm...  Why are folks so scared of it.  Reading about it on the web you’d think it’s just short of plutonium.  

 

Maybe I’ll start there then.  It’s what I’d prefer anyway.  

 

Do you all hand load powder or use a measurer on a loader?

 

You can have real BP delivered to your door. ;)

I load SASS, BP loads on my Dillon 550, and have done so for decades.

BP clean up is easy-Best BP cleaner out there, is Windex multi-surface with vinegar.

I use GOEX Old 'E' 2F.

https://powderinc.com/

 

OLG

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10 minutes ago, Croc Holiday said:

Hmmm...  Why are folks so scared of it.  Reading about it on the web you’d think it’s just short of plutonium.  

 

Maybe I’ll start there then.  It’s what I’d prefer anyway.  

 

Do you all hand load powder or use a measurer on a loader?

 

Since your new I'd hand load until you get used to it, but that will get real old, real quick. Regardless, don't get in a hurry and you'll be fine. I don't know Jed I., but I doubt he considers it pestering.

 

I load everything on a Hornady Lock N' Load, both BP and that heathen smokeless stuff. I've recently started using Big Lube Bullets from Springfield Slim to make the process even easier.

 

20190726_160900.thumb.jpg.38299777422bd25157f0669a635fb12f.jpg

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I'll cast my vote for real BP too. I use it in my C&B pistols, as well as load it in cartridges for my .45's, 44-40's and shotshells. I use a Lee single stage press and hand dip my powder. It doesn't really take that long and it's actually fun (to me). Black powder is available from several sources on the internet, and is delivered right to your door.

 

Whichever way you decide to go, have fun!! And welcome to the wonderful world of The Dark Side!!

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13 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

Since your new I'd hand load until you get used to it, but that will get real old, real quick. Regardless, don't get in a hurry and you'll be fine. I don't know Jed I., but I doubt he considers it pestering.

 

I load everything on a Hornady Lock N' Load, both BP and that heathen smokeless stuff. I've recently started using Big Lube Bullets from Springfield Slim to make the process even easier.

 

20190726_160900.thumb.jpg.38299777422bd25157f0669a635fb12f.jpg

 

Eggzactly. :) 

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See Black Powder for Dummies.  MZ is similar to APP, not very hydroscopic, and cheap at Sportsmans Warehouse.  With subs you can buy a single bottle at a local sporting goods store and use the bullets you already shoot (excepting Pyrodex). This is an easy way to start.  At EOT I shot 777 in my main match revolvers, MZ and Goex in my shotgun shells, APP in my 45-70 plainsman loads and real BP in my cap 'n ball revolvers for the Plainsman.   They are all SASS-legal and all worked well.  Some have small advantages for certain situations.  You need to ask us how to prep your guns for BP and the subs.  Test them before a match to determine how many stages you can shoot without cleaning.  I can shoot six stages without cleaning but clean ever day during major matches.  You will need to load shotgun shells too.  They are too expensive to buy.   You can use the nail and dowel method or a single-stage SG shell reloader.

 

Again, welcome to the Darkside.  

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26 minutes ago, Croc Holiday said:

Why are folks so scared of it.  

 

Ignorance, mainly.  It is a low power explosive, and is managed that way by transportation regulations.   Those regulations may contribute a LOT to the "scare factor" which BP carries around.

 

Some kids and ignorant adults have abused it over the years, but the folks who assume black powder is what is in firecrackers and cherry bombs are way out of date with that technology.

 

It is VERY safe to load ammunition with, due to lower chamber pressures, and low energy density which means a case filled with Black Powder is a safe load in most any cartridge.  And that shotshells are almost impossible to load to a danger point, too.   It is forgiving of most loading errors - but still, be careful and follow good loading data.

 

It does leave fouling in the gun because rarely does a charge of powder burn completely, and the burning process leaves carbonate and sulfate compounds behind along with some unburned carbon.   (Smokeless powder burns completely to gases if the load makes the correct amount of pressure)

 

BP fouling does attract moisture that then rusts most steels, even the stainless steels used in firearms, but over a period of several days.   But the fouling is easily removed with hot water or even cold water and soap.   So, if you consistently dean and lube firearms after shooting, BP does not damage the firearm - in fact, it is easier on firearms than smokeless powder due to the lower pressures it creates. 

 

Scared of BP?  Not around here!  :lol:

 

Good luck, GJ

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For me real blackpowder (any brand, 2F or 3F) for percussion revolvers works better than substitutes because it ignites easier than subs with a percussion cap.  For cartridges and shotshells, 2F of anything. Do not buy 4F; it’s for flintlock flash pans.

 

Follow the basic rules:

 

1.  Do not allow an air space between powder and projectile.   For our game compression of the powder simply ensures compliance with the rule, no effect on accuracy.

 

2.  Use a bullet lubricant that is compatible with the powder of choice.  It varies and it is important, if not for accuracy then for cleaning.

 

3.  Clean your guns and brass reasonably soon after the match.  No need to panic.  But don’t wait a week.  Ballistol is your friend.

 

That’s it.  Blackpowder offers a surprising latitude in loads.  It is a very user friendly powder, as long as you follow the rules.

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Goex 3 F will do all you need in this game !!!

From .32 to .45 Caliber in Both Rifle and Revolvers.... As well as Shotguns from 20 through to 10 Ga.

I use 4.3 CC under 1 1/8 oz. of shot in 12 Ga. ,,, 3.4CC under 1 oz of shot in Sweet 16 ,,,,, and 2.9 CC in 20 Ga.under 7/8 oz. shot ....

All are Loaded with Plastic Wads ...

 

29 grains by weight under 220- 240 gr. bullets in .44 Spl.  ,,,, 34 Grains under 180 gr. bullets in .38 40 ,,,,,, 37.7 Grains under 255- 270 grain bullets in .45 Colt ...

The Rifle / Revolver loads are drop-tubed into cases from a Lyman 55 Black Powder measure ...And compressed by bullet seating ...

With a Good tight Crimp. 

 

Jabez Cowboy

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2 hours ago, Croc Holiday said:

 

Already pestering him :D

Is that what you call that?  You need to take some lessons from my sidekicks, they know how to pester me.  ;)

 

2 hours ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

Since your new I'd hand load until you get used to it, but that will get real old, real quick. Regardless, don't get in a hurry and you'll be fine. I don't know Jed I., but I doubt he considers it pestering.

 

I load everything on a Hornady Lock N' Load, both BP and that heathen smokeless stuff. I've recently started using Big Lube Bullets from Springfield Slim to make the process even easier.

 

20190726_160900.thumb.jpg.38299777422bd25157f0669a635fb12f.jpg

 

 Ya got it right Tyrel.  :) 

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Howdy

 

What kind of loading bench is this? It's much too neat.

 

image.png.878b013844cb99e0524adc5837039555.png

 

 

 

 

Now this is what a loading bench really looks like.

 

Messy%20Loading%20Bench_zpsgqe0s0ne.jpg

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Still new to the black powder but when I decided I went all in. I shoot Swiss and Goex in my guns. I started with a handful of .38s and .45s but have spent this season shooting all cap guns Josey Wales style. I also started loading brass shot shells. I measure by hand because I’m in no rush. I used the Dillon only to seat and crimp the bullets. 

I’ve been figuring out what cleaning routine works best for me and I can say, for me, shooting Saturday and cleaning the following Friday was not an issue. Not the way I planned it but it happens. 

40 grains in a Walker gives a nice thump and some. 

1F7888C9-C62A-4683-98B7-3ED6EA994545.jpeg

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23 minutes ago, Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 said:

Howdy

 

What kind of loading bench is this? It's much too neat.

 

image.png.878b013844cb99e0524adc5837039555.png

 

 

 

 

Now this is what a loading bench really looks like.

 

Messy%20Loading%20Bench_zpsgqe0s0ne.jpg

 

Well, I straightened it up a tad, the rest of my basement is similar to your reloading area.

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If I can jump in with a quick question, what would happen if you used BP and a coated bullet?  I've been told APP and Black MZ it's not a problem but never about real BP.

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I load my 44-40 ammo using my Dillon 450 and Mec jr for my shotgun shells. But also have the Lyman bp powder measure that I use for loading tubes that I set up for my cap guns. I have tried the subs and if I were to go with one my choice would be APP...but the subs are sort of like eating boiled chicken...yes there is some smoke but no belching of flames. I am also  guilty of not cleaning guns right after a match and none of them have turned to piles of rust or fallen apart but they do get cleaned within a day or two or three....yes I also still have some green brass too. That gets done eventually and when done usually stained and not shiny...but stained brass is still clean and shoots just as well as the shiny.

That's my 2 cents

as the saying goes "Just Do It"

 

Hochbauer

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4 hours ago, Tequila Chase said:

If I can jump in with a quick question, what would happen if you used BP and a coated bullet?  I've been told APP and Black MZ it's not a problem but never about real BP.

Barrel has to be cleaned and lubed frequently (like between stages) in order to keep it running well. I use unlubed bullets and real BP in my rifle and just run a few wet patches down the barrel and clean the chamber between stages.

kR

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22 minutes ago, Kid Rich said:

Barrel has to be cleaned and lubed frequently (like between stages) in order to keep it running well. I use unlubed bullets and real BP in my rifle and just run a few wet patches down the barrel and clean the chamber between stages.

kR

 

 

OR

 

A little filler and a dab of crisco under the bullet

 

 

OR

 

Wonder Wads(Homemade or Sagebrush)

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19 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

 

OR

 

A little filler and a dab of crisco under the bullet

 

 

OR

 

Wonder Wads(Homemade or Sagebrush)

If you are loading for several weeks at a time the lube under the bullet will migrate and foul the BP. Been there done that. If your ammo maybe subjected to heat, like the back of a pickup over a period of time, the Wonder wads will also leak into the powder. We are home now for the second time since the 1st week of April and are getting ready for the next trip. It will include ID MI IL MN CAC TN AZ and maybe WI and OK. If I had the time at home I would be casting 44-40 bullets instead of shooting hardcast 38's. Maybe this winter I will get enough time to cast up a bunch.

kR

PS maybe we will see you in TN if you are there

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*****STAY AWAY FROM PYRODEX*****

 

Pyrodex needs to be cleaned up immediately after a shoot otherwise your guns will rot and pit.  I thought this was a myth till a seen a photo of a destroyed Ruger Old Army were the owner used Pyrodex and never cleaned it right away.  Also, a shooter near me used Pyrodex for a monthly match, and had his shotgun chamber pitted after sitting for one day!

 

I'm lazy, I don't clean my guns right away unless they're originals from way back when.

 

Used APP in my C&B's in a match two weeks ago, just cleaned them up last night, cause I'm lazy, no pitting or damage of any kind. 

 

I like real black for that deep satisfying boom, and the sparks & flames.

 

For subs I prefer APP, nice and smokey, but can be too smokey if you're facing the sun.

 

APP in 2F is very very soft on the recoil, so soft in fact that it can play with your head since the gun don't move.

 

Triple Seven is ok, not very smokey, has extra umpf to it.  I recommend staying with 2F.

 

People seem to like Black MZ, which is like $10 a pound from Sportsman's Warehouse.  I never used it.

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8 minutes ago, Kid Rich said:

If you are loading for several weeks at a time the lube under the bullet will migrate and foul the BP. Been there done that. If your ammo maybe subjected to heat, like the back of a pickup over a period of time, the Wonder wads will also leak into the powder. We are home now for the second time since the 1st week of April and are getting ready for the next trip. It will include ID MI IL MN CAC TN AZ and maybe WI and OK. If I had the time at home I would be casting 44-40 bullets instead of shooting hardcast 38's. Maybe this winter I will get enough time to cast up a bunch.

kR

PS maybe we will see you in TN if you are there

 

Well, I've not had that problem using lizard litter and Crisco; I do try to load way ahead.

 

Recently I've switched to 25gr FFFg, foam caulk rod, and Big Lube 44-40.

I now use the coated bullets for the rare occasion I shoot smokeless.

 

Good Lord willing I'll be at TN State and the SE Regional; hope to see you at one or both.

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12 minutes ago, Kid Rich said:

If you are loading for several weeks at a time the lube under the bullet will migrate and foul the BP.

 

I have been told by a few people over the years that cookie wads will ooze under the pressure of seating the boolit, which why I don't use them.

 

Now, are you talking strictly about these cookies?  Cause I dont have problems with bp loobed boolits I rolled up a number of years ago.

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1 minute ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

Well, I've not had that problem using lizard litter and Crisco; I do try to load way ahead.

 

Recently I've switched to 25gr FFFg, foam caulk rod, and Big Lube 44-40.

I now use the coated bullets for the rare occasion I shoot smokeless.

 

Good Lord willing I'll be at TN State and the SE Regional; hope to see you at one or both.

We just finished a swing of CO NM WY IN KY. Black Gold was really hot and humid this year but still a great shoot.

kr

PS We won't be at the SE as it is the same time as AZ state.

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3 minutes ago, Cemetery said:

 

I have been told by a few people over the years that cookie wads will ooze under the pressure of seating the boolit, which why I don't use them.

 

Now, are you talking strictly about these cookies?  Cause I dont have problems with bp loobed boolits I rolled up a number of years ago.

Cookies, not BP lubed bullets as long as they seal the case. Don't use bullets that are not fully formed or filled out.

kR

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5 hours ago, Tequila Chase said:

If I can jump in with a quick question, what would happen if you used BP and a coated bullet?  I've been told APP and Black MZ it's not a problem but never about real BP.

AT EOT I saw a top FC shooter applying Bore Butter on the conical portion of his uncoated bullets before inserting them into the cylinders.  His revolvers ran fine.  I suspect this method would work for coated bullets too.  For obvious reasons I would not load this way for a lever action rifle.  

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1 hour ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

AT EOT I saw a top FC shooter applying Bore Butter on the conical portion of his uncoated bullets before inserting them into the cylinders.  His revolvers ran fine.  I suspect this method would work for coated bullets too.  For obvious reasons I would not load this way for a lever action rifle.  

I do that with the pistols. Not with the rifle. It makes the handguns very easy to clean. Most of the fouling wipes off with a dry rag or paper towel.

kR

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Hey Kid, Coming to the GMM in VT. in a couple weeks? Hope to see you and Shirttail Bess.

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