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Ace_of_Hearts

Should we have a maximum stage time?

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The example is based on a 10-10-4 stage.

 

Many of the electronic scoring programs now have an input of a "Maximum stage time". This is different from a Stage Disqualification.

A shooter shoots the stage in 130 seconds.

 

Should he be scored the maximum stage time of 120 seconds (number of targets times 5 seconds) OR should they be scored whatever raw time they use + misses?

 

I am not asking WTC.... Just asking your opinion.

 

 

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Howdy Ace, IINM we have used this in the past. SH page 25.

"When using Total Time scoring, a maximum allowed time for each stage is to be calculated prior to the match, and is used as the Stage Disqualification score (SDQ) and maximum stage score.

The maximum time allowed for a stage is the total of all available targets/miss penalties plus 30 seconds.   (Example: 5 seconds each for all available targets (10 rifle, 10 pistol, 4 shotgun = 24 targets x 5 seconds = 120 seconds.  Add 30 seconds for a maximum score of 150 seconds)." Good Luck:) 

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Posted (edited)

SASS rules state we are to use the max stage time.

 

They made that change when we went to Total Time back in 2017.

 

Ford or Chevy?

 

Interestingly, I found this was a TG item as far back as 2002/2003...

 

https://www.sassnet.com/Downloads/tg/TG0103.pdf

 

In a total time match, should we standardize the practice of scoring a stage DQ and send to committee for later discussion. The committee’s recommendations is as follows: In total time scored matches, a maximum time per stage will be established by adding together all available miss penalties, plus 30 seconds. Shooters receive maximum stage time for DNF, DQ, or not completing the stage within the maximum time.

 

170 for, 18 against, 1 abstain - Result: Pass

Edited by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854
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That is the way we score WR.  There were a half dozen scores that were longer than the maximum score for the stage (which varied from 140-160 sec depending on number of shots) and so were defaulted to the maximum score. 

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Posted (edited)

You'd have a lot of people potentially tie for last place.

 

But more than that, if you are slow shooter, you are competing against yourself.  Either beating a previously shot personal best, to see if you can crack the bottom 10.  If you have a maximum time per stage, you have no way of knowing how you really did or if you are improving.

 

Edited by H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619
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A couple of us ROd a3 gun match here.They wanted us to stop a shooter when they reached the max .We didn't.They paid there money so let them finish the stage.

                                     

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Largo

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Once again.....

I know what maximum stage time is in the shooters handbook..........!!!!!!

 

The question is..... Should we record what the shooters actual time is or the maximum stage time?

 

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2 minutes ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

Once again.....

I know what maximum stage time is in the shooters handbook..........!!!!!!

 

The question is..... Should we record what the shooters actual time is or the maximum stage time?

 

No...in fact I think Timers should have the capability of emitting a loud screeching sound once a pre-programmed time limit has been reached. That way the shooter will know that they can just stop...

 

Ugh...

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Par time stages. Never shot one in SASS, but have in other disciplines. I’d imagine we’d have some serious hurt feelings if it was ever done here. 

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1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

No...in fact I think Timers should have the capability of emitting a loud screeching sound once a pre-programmed time limit has been reached. That way the shooter will know that they can just stop...

 

Ugh...

Wouldnt you just love to be that TO:blush:

 

The Flinstones timer bird screeches and the poor shooter puts their tail between their legs and shuffles off to the ULT with half a rifle magazine tube of bullets and belt full of SG rounds.

 

I can just see them coming back next month for more of that character building humiliation.

 

 

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I’ve had a few stages before were a max time would have been very welcome. 

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1 hour ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

Once again.....

I know what maximum stage time is in the shooters handbook..........!!!!!!

 

The question is..... Should we record what the shooters actual time is or the maximum stage time?

 

 

OK, I'll play....

 

In my experience, it is used mostly to determine the time to record for a SDQ.

 

However, as others have noted,  there are times, however rare, when a shooter finishes the stage in longer than the 'maximum time.'  And I would agree that recording the actual time it took them would make the most sense to me.  To help gauge progress, etc.

 

The question then becomes why should a DQ be scored as less time than someone who actually shot the stage without getting DQd?

 

One solution, which I seem to remember seeing used somewhere at some point, is to score a DQ as the longest recorded score for that stage, plus 30 seconds.  Which of course would raise concerns from some saying that places too steep a penalty on a DQ.

 

To answer your question with my opinion, yes, record actual time but adjust DQ time as described above.  But mostly I don't see it as being wide spread enough to give much thought to.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Grizzly Dave said:

 

OK, I'll play....

 

In my experience, it is used mostly to determine the time to record for a SDQ.

 

However, as others have noted,  there are times, however rare, when a shooter finishes the stage in longer than the 'maximum time.'  And I would agree that recording the actual time it took them would make the most sense to me.  To help gauge progress, etc.

 

The question then becomes why should a DQ be scored as less time than someone who actually shot the stage without getting DQd?

 

One solution, which I seem to remember seeing used somewhere at some point, is to score a DQ as the longest recorded score for that stage, plus 30 seconds.  Which of course would raise concerns from some saying that places too steep a penalty on a DQ.

 

To answer your question with my opinion, yes, record actual time but adjust DQ time as described above.  But mostly I don't see it as being wide spread enough to give much thought to.

 

 

Do that and then the DQ time becomes as arbitrary as a miss i penalty in Rank Point scoring....

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8 hours ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

Once again.....

I know what maximum stage time is in the shooters handbook..........!!!!!!

 

The question is..... Should we record what the shooters actual time is or the maximum stage time?

 

 

8 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

No...in fact I think Timers should have the capability of emitting a loud screeching sound once a pre-programmed time limit has been reached. That way the shooter will know that they can just stop...

 

Ugh...

 

I think you are a bit off the mark here, Phantom.

 

Doing that could be considered interference and grounds for a reshoot!

 

What we need to do is simply tattoo any time greater than the max stage time to the shooter's forehead.

 

For those who think we have strayed too far from the origins of the game and who want an 'authentic' western experience, we can brand the time instead of tattooing it.

 

 

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To have a solution you first need a problem.  In this case the only problem I see has been pointed out, one shooter's DQ possibly being recorded as a faster time than another shooters actual time.  Does that problem rise to the level of needing a solution?  I don't think so.  For that reason I vote no. 

 

(If there's a different reason that I'm not seeing please let me know so I can ponder the problem vs. solution question a bit.)  

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Take their guns and give em a swift boot in the arse.

They obviously don't need to be shooting with us anyway.

Amateurs!

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Have the shooter decide. You can keep your slow (over the max) time or go with the default max time.

If I had a trainwreck stage and it went over max, I wouldn't want to be placed behind someone who DQ'd the stage... but if I decided on the time, it's on me.

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9 hours ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

Par time stages. Never shot one in SASS, but have in other disciplines. I’d imagine we’d have some serious hurt feelings if it was ever done here. 

Absolutely agree. Par time is like adding insult to injury. Not necessary. 

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Doesn't matter to me.  When I finish, the batteries have already died in the timer, so . . . .

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Posted (edited)

See, now if we went back to rank scoring...

 

(I'm about to feel like Gilligan when the Skipper hits him with his hat)

Edited by Boomstick Bruce
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59 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

To have a solution you first need a problem

Not true for government or the Wire.

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Actual time.  If they're that slow I doubt they care if someone with a SDQ gets a lower time than they do.

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17 hours ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

Many of the electronic scoring programs now have an input of a "Maximum stage time".

 

What do those scoring programs actually do? An nice implementation would be if the "real" value had to be filled in but the overall (match) time was calculated with the maximum stage time.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

Take their guns and give em a swift boot in the arse.

They obviously don't need to be shooting with us anyway.

Amateurs!

 

I have shot stages where a malfunction caused me to disassemble a pistol to clear a jam and then put it back together in order to finish and clean a stage! 

 

137 seconds!  It resulted in a clean match and placement in my category!

 

A DQ or a DNF would have prevented me from placing in that match!!

 

In my not so humble opinion, this idea “ creates a vacuum” !!  If you wonder what I mean, think what a shopvac does!!! :angry: (no middle finger icon available!!!” :lol: :lol:

Edited by Blackwater 53393

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

 

I have shot stages where a malfunction caused me to disassemble a pistol to clear a jam and then put it back together in order to finish and clean a stage! 

 

137 seconds!  It resulted in a clean match and placement in my category!

 

A DQ or a DNF would have prevented me from placing in that match!!

 

In my not so humble opinion, this idea “ creates a vacuum” !!  If you wonder what I mean, think what a shopvac does!!! :angry: (no middle finger icon available!!!”

Ummm.... joke :(

And thanks for no middle finger. great

Edited by The Rainmaker, SASS #11631
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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Equanimous Phil said:

 

What do those scoring programs actually do? An nice implementation would be if the "real" value had to be filled in but the overall (match) time was calculated with the maximum stage time.

 

20 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

 

I have shot stages where a malfunction caused me to disassemble a pistol to clear a jam and then put it back together in order to finish and clean a stage! 

 

137 seconds!  It resulted in a clean match and placement in my category!

 

A DQ or a DNF would have prevented me from placing in that match!!

 

In my not so humble opinion, this idea “ creates a vacuum” !!  If you wonder what I mean, think what a shopvac does!!! :angry: (no middle finger icon available!!!”

 

I was assisting the scoring of a State or higher match a while back where this happened.

 

The posse puts into the tablet the exact time the shooter earned.

 

It is the reports on the backside coming out that only attribute the max time to the shooter.

 

The shooter actually had more than one of these instances happen, but they were still awarded their prize at the end of the match as it is NOT scored as a DNF or DQ, but rather they are scored in the end with the max time on those particular stages.

 

It is not scored as a DNF as long as the shooter finishes the stage. Nor is it scored as a DQ.

 

All else being equal, going over the max time also does not affect a 'clean' shoot.

 

SHB pg 25

Quote

SASS matches are scored based upon elapsed shooting time (Total Time Scoring), plus
penalty points for missed targets, procedural errors and various other rules infractions. Each
stage is scored individually, and the total combined raw time score plus any penalties
incurred for all stages is used to determine place of finish, either by category, overall, or both.

 

When using Total Time scoring, a maximum allowed time for each stage is to be calculated
prior to the match, and is used as the Stage Disqualification score (SDQ) and maximum stage
score.

 

The maximum time allowed for a stage is the total of all available targets/miss penalties plus
30 seconds.

 

(Example: 5 seconds each for all available targets (10 rifle, 10 pistol, 4 shotgun = 24 targets
x 5 seconds = 120 seconds. Add 30 seconds for a maximum score of 150 seconds).

 

The score for a SDQ is the maximum allowed time for that stage, as per the above description
for calculating maximum allowed time. The score for a DNF (not finishing a stage) is the
same as a Stage Disqualification penalty — the maximum allowed time for that stage. The
score for a Match Disqualification Penalty (MDQ) is “NO SCORE.” A MDQ results in the
removal of the contestant from all score sheets; thus, removal from the match entirely. Two
SDQ/DNFs (or one of each) in the same match results in a MDQ.

 

Overall winners, often including both the top male and top female competitors are
traditionally recognized at SASS matches. The “best score” for the main match stages
determines the overall winner.

 

Edited by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854
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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

Ummm.... joke :(

And thanks for no middle finger. great

 

Somewhat joking myself!

 

Serious about the scoring issue!

 

Some of us shoot these stages like we’re battling the bad guys.  If you don’t get ‘em all, you lose!!  Just another way to play the game!!!  B)

Edited by Blackwater 53393

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19 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

 

Somewhat joking myself!

 

Serious about the scoring issue!

 

Some of us shoot these stages like we’re battling the bad guys.  If you don’t get ‘em all, you lose!!  Just another way to play the game!!!  B)

I've spent umpteen seconds digging a hull out of my 97 or a round from my 92, know what ya mean. Not letting it beat me.

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I would prefer the actual time be recorded. I had a train wreck match recently when my Marlin wouldn't extract 90% of the empty cases. It was a pain and a lot of finger nails (no screw knife) to pull them out, but was kinda funny later to see the times! I shoot for fun and I still was able to finish the match with a faulty extractor. This was a local match, I suppose a State or higher match might be a different story. It put a smile on my face when the TO said "Clean, but painful"

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The wonderful thing about SASS is that, if you would like to see this rule changed, all you have to do is bring it up with your TG and they can take it from there.

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4 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

The wonderful thing about SASS is that, if you would like to see this rule changed, all you have to do is bring it up with your TG and they can take it from there.

 

 

The OP is my TG.  Now what do I do? :wacko:

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30 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

 

The OP is my TG.  Now what do I do? :wacko:

There is no hope for you.

 

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5 hours ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

 

The OP is my TG.  Now what do I do? :wacko:

Stay on your feet would be a good start:P

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