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Ace_of_Hearts

Should we have a maximum stage time?

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No, no, and no.  As a designated scorekeeper, it is important to me that what goes on the paper (or in the tablet) is what happened on the firing line.

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7 hours ago, MizPete said:

No, no, and no.  As a designated scorekeeper, it is important to me that what goes on the paper (or in the tablet) is what happened on the firing line.

You are correct. The scorekeeper should not have to worry about maximum stage time.

 

It is the tablet, or whatever, that is tabulating the end results when all the shooting is over that will ensure that the competitor is not scored with a time over the maximum stage time.

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You learn something every day.  I never new about the max.  We have several shooters that due to age and other infirmities go past 150 quite often.  I've never seen their scores changed shorter. 

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I was entering scores at our match on Sunday.  A buckaroo had two stages with times greater than 150 seconds (the calculation of number of rounds per stage x 5 + 30) and it reverted to the 150.  I went back to try to get the program to accept the actual times and could not do it.  I used to be the scorekeeper for years and have since found someone else to do it.  However, I was certain that I could find where to make the proper program changes to do so.  However, I did not.  I prefer to see the actual times.

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1 hour ago, Black Hills Barb said:

I was entering scores at our match on Sunday.  A buckaroo had two stages with times greater than 150 seconds (the calculation of number of rounds per stage x 5 + 30) and it reverted to the 150.  I went back to try to get the program to accept the actual times and could not do it.  I used to be the scorekeeper for years and have since found someone else to do it.  However, I was certain that I could find where to make the proper program changes to do so.  However, I did not.  I prefer to see the actual times.

Well then there's a problem.

 

SDQ's can be more than 150 seconds.

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8 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Well then there's a problem.

 

SDQ's can be more than 150 seconds.

Practiscore and the SASS scoring program both allow you to set the maximum time by stage.

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What I still don't understand is why we are adding the extra 30 seconds into max stage time.

If the maximum time to shoot at a target is the same as a miss, then why add a 30 second penalty.

Just my opinion that the maximum stage time should be 5 seconds per target/shot...... Period.

This would make a 10 - 10 - 4 stage a maximum time of 120 seconds and a stage DQ would still remain 150 seconds.

This way a slow shooter would still win over someone with a Disqualification on the stage.

 

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2 minutes ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

What I still don't understand is why we are adding the extra 30 seconds into max stage time.

If the maximum time to shoot at a target is the same as a miss, then why add a 30 second penalty.

Just my opinion that the maximum stage time should be 5 seconds per target/shot...... Period.

This would make a 10 - 10 - 4 stage a maximum time of 120 seconds and a stage DQ would still remain 150 seconds.

This way a slow shooter would still win over someone with a Disqualification on the stage.

 

There's a first time for everything I -agree with you!

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I think maybe a minimum stage time!! Nothing under 20 seconds!!:P:P

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28 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

I think maybe a minimum stage time!! Nothing under 20 seconds!!:P:P

I'll see your 20 seconds and raise you to 30.  No, 45.

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On 7/2/2019 at 10:24 AM, Captain Bill Burt said:

Actual time.  If they're that slow I doubt they care if someone with a SDQ gets a lower time than they do.

I would agree. Some of the slower fellows I shoot with really don't care about the score. They are just there for the comradery and being able to shoot cowboy guns.

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7 hours ago, Hells Comin said:

There's a first time for everything I -agree with you!

I did it once before and he was shocked (even mentioned it to me the next time he saw me). :o I told him that "I tell it like it is." I refrained from saying that I disagree with him most of the time.  I think he knew that. ;)

 

Sometimes it all comes down to the point that we can finally agree to. IMO, the following was his.

7 hours ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

This way a slow shooter would still win over someone with a Disqualification on the stage.

 

Until I read that, I didn't really care. That just made sense to me and won me over to liking the idea of a maximum stage time.

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10 hours ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

This way a slow shooter would still win over someone with a Disqualification on the stage.

 

Well, shouldn't he?  DQ means yer out.

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6 hours ago, MizPete said:

Well, shouldn't he?  DQ means yer out.

A MDQ means you're out. Two SDQ means you're out. One SDQ isn't so bad...

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IMHO part of SASS is just being out there for some folks. We have had many shooters that have struggled to shoot 70 sec stages but that's not a big deal too me...…...I'm happy to see them every weekend. I don't see a need to cut their time off in the scoring...…...what's the point?

 

It's not going to speed anything up so all you are doing is watering down the scores. Unless you are gonna' get a cane and yank em' off the stage at 120 sec like a Bugs Bunny cartoon...…….it's pointless I think.....and I sure think that's how you will make them feel too by cutting their times off. 

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The max time should be 999.99 seconds, which is the maximum recordable time on the timers.

 

I know this cuz once I was at a shoot that was 5 long range targets.   By the time the guy before me was done, this was the reading on the timer.   But he hit all his targets.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Cowboy Junky said:

IMHO part of SASS is just being out there for some folks. We have had many shooters that have struggled to shoot 70 sec stages but that's not a big deal too me...…...I'm happy to see them every weekend. I don't see a need to cut their time off in the scoring...…...what's the point?

 

It's not going to speed anything up so all you are doing is watering down the scores. Unless you are gonna' get a cane and yank em' off the stage at 120 sec like a Bugs Bunny cartoon...…….it's pointless I think.....and I sure think that's how you will make them feel too by cutting their times off. 

Looking back at previous comments and from the original TG vote on the issue, I believe that their point was that a shooter should not be scored with a time greater than the SDQ score, especially if you consider that a SDQ is supposed to be considered a bad thing...

 

The same holds true, currently, in the following scenario: max stage time is a 150. Shooter completes the stage in 132.79 seconds with 7 misses.  The scorekeeper puts the time 132.79 and the 7 misses, but the sheet on the backside only reports a stage time of 150.00 as that is the max stage time. 

 

It isn't the raw time that is maxed out, but the scored time...ie raw time plus the misses.

 

If you score 'whatever you run' in a total time match, how do you score a SDQ?

 

 

Edited by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854

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2 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

Looking back at previous comments and from the original TG vote on the issue, I believe that their point was that a shooter should not be scored with a time greater than the SDQ score, especially if you consider that a SDQ is supposed to be considered a bad thing...

 

The same holds true, currently, in the following scenario: max stage time is a 150. Shooter completes the stage in 132.79 seconds with 7 misses.  The scorekeeper puts the time 132.79 and the 7 misses, but the sheet on the backside only reports a stage time of 150.00 as that is the max stage time. 

 

It isn't the raw time that is maxed out, but the scored time...ie raw time plus the misses.

 

 

 

I think we should raise the SDQ time to 999 and get rid of the max time. 

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Just now, Tyrel Cody said:

 

I think we should raise the SDQ time to 999 and get rid of the max time. 

Then a SDQ becomes fatal then.

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6 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

Then a SDQ becomes fatal then.

 

True, didn't really think about that aspect. Still think we should not have a max time. The late Mortimer Smith would have worn that 178 second stage like a badge of honor.

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6 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

True, didn't really think about that aspect. Still think we should not have a max time. The late Mortimer Smith would have worn that 178 second stage like a badge of honor.

So, either you have folks scored with a time greater that a DQ, or you update your DQ time. 

 

And, if scoring a time greater than a DQ time is OK, am I, as an RO, assisting a shooter by telling the to stop shooting once they near the DQ time...taking into account adding up time for their misses and unfired rounds?

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I want to know how I did.   If that means that I would have done "better" with an SDQ, then so be it.   I'd rather know how I did than have it cut off, making me wonder what my real score was.

 

Would making and DQ 999 be "fatal?"  Probably, but when you consider WHY an SDQ is given, well, maybe it should be.  Skipping a stage, for whatever reason, should be a severe handicap to who ever skipped it.

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1 minute ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

I want to know how I did.   If that means that I would have done "better" with an SDQ, then so be it.   I'd rather know how I did than have it cut off, making me wonder what my real score was.

 

Would making and DQ 999 be "fatal?"  Probably, but when you consider WHY an SDQ is given, well, maybe it should be.  Skipping a stage, for whatever reason, should be a severe handicap to who ever skipped it.

 

@Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 This, I just couldn't get it into words.

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A long time ago, when rank points ruled the land, (it was a simpler time, wasn't it) even a SDQ was not fatal.

 

The 'actual' time is available in most of the programs in one of the reports. Perhaps your club is not making that information available to you?

 

Another option could be to update the output that you are seeing at your club to show shot time and scored time, or even display shot time but use scored time in the overall tabulation.

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NO !!!

 

Jabez Cowboy

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7 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

A MDQ means you're out. Two SDQ means you're out. One SDQ isn't so bad...

I meant out of the stage.  But even a SDQ indicates a pretty serious issue.  Just my opinion, but in this example I'd prefer slow over serious.

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AS may have been mentioned, the SASS Scoring program gives options for the max time. 

 

5 seconds per round +30 seconds or

 

Maximum time + so many seconds (default is 30 seconds), but you can set what you want.

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12 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

I'd rather know how I did than have it cut off, making me wonder what my real score was.

I don't know which scoring program is used at our club but on the ranking list the raw time and penalties are always shown. The raw times are never cut off (as long they don't exceed 999.9s ...)

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

I want to know how I did.   If that means that I would have done "better" with an SDQ, then so be it.   I'd rather know how I did than have it cut off, making me wonder what my real score was.

 

Would making and DQ 999 be "fatal?"  Probably, but when you consider WHY an SDQ is given, well, maybe it should be.  Skipping a stage, for whatever reason, should be a severe handicap to who ever skipped it.

That was kinda' my point as well. If ya' earn a SDQ you did something pretty wrong (at least in the eyes of the SASS rulebook) and really shouldn't be worried bout placement in that match. 

 

At that point too me it's more like arguing whether you got a MS or a P when they both equal 10 sec. 

Edited by Cowboy Junky
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2 hours ago, Cowboy Junky said:

...

At that point too me it's more like arguing whether you got a MS or a P when they both equal 10 sec. 

I think people feel that committing a safety violation is stigmatized.

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On 7/3/2019 at 10:26 AM, Ace_of_Hearts said:

What I still don't understand is why we are adding the extra 30 seconds into max stage time.

If the maximum time to shoot at a target is the same as a miss, then why add a 30 second penalty.

Just my opinion that the maximum stage time should be 5 seconds per target/shot...... Period.

This would make a 10 - 10 - 4 stage a maximum time of 120 seconds and a stage DQ would still remain 150 seconds.

This way a slow shooter would still win over someone with a Disqualification on the stage.

 

 

I’m going to stick to my original statement, this isn’t a big enough problem that it needs a solution. If a shooter’s stage is so bad it gets beat by a SDQ then so be it. 

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I'm out.  Y'all decide what to do and tell me what score to enter.  But I do, and always will, think what happened on the line is what should be scored.  And if the highest score on the line was 2 1/2 minutes, then a DQ should be 2 1/2 minutes plus 1.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, MizPete said:

I'm out.  Y'all decide what to do and tell me what score to enter.  But I do, and always will, think what happened on the line is what should be scored.  And if the highest score on the line was 2 1/2 minutes, then a DQ should be 2 1/2 minutes plus 1.

Then a DQ become just as variable as a prnalty was with rank points...

Edited by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854

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4 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

Then a DQ become just as variable as a prnalty was with rank points...

 

Really nothing wrong with that!!  It’s kinda’ like a penalty in auto racing. You are placed at the back of the longest line or a given a “drive through” penalty. and it puts you behind the slowest competitor!

 

Seems right!

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PLUS ONE too PHANTOM (All)

 

Just how bored are you??

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