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Widder, SASS #59054

What is a Clean Miss?

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I have my 'opinion' on what is considered a 'Clean Miss' when it pertains to shooting at a 

target and having enough room to miss without hitting another target.  And when that 'other'

target is a 'same type target', that Miss penalty can be determined as a 'P' if that other target is hit out of order.

 

But, we are told that the shooter should be allow a 'Clean Miss'.

 

If Mr. Cowboy is 6'2" tall,  two targets might not overlap, there fore, his shooting angle would be different

from a Ms.Cowgirl that is 5' tall, where 2 separate targets could overlap, therefore not allowing her a 'Clean Miss'.

 

Sooooooo, is there any precise definition of a Clean Miss?

 

A fellow Cowboy shooter and I were having a discussion on this, with varying opinions.

 

Any insight (and even opinions) are appreciated.   

THANKS.

 

..........Widder

 

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Good question.  I think probably the best determination would be based on what happens next after that shoot.  Does the shooter complete the rest of the string as prescribed or not.  But that would only be truly helpful if the next shot was to the same designated target and they hit it the second time. 

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When we set up targets we typically try to take different heights into account. From buckaroo's to those with great stature.:D

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Sounds like a topic best discussed around the camp fire and over a few beverages.

 

Pour me three fingers and I'll ponder it a spell.....

 

Well....

 

Hmm....

 

Refill?

 

As you said, with the variance in the vertical displacement of individual participants there can be no singular quantification for a 'clean miss.'  Moving forward under that theory, the exact definition of a clean miss is as you stated, however will be varied by the dimensions of each individual what be doing the lead slinging at that particular juncture.  

 

refill?

 

Furhter more, it could be postulated that a participant of exceptionally lofty proportions may have undergone illegal modifications to reach that stature and be deserving of penalty... In addition,  what about them folks what can have one foot behind the prop, as required by stage instructions and with them long lanky laigs be hanging off so far to one side that there no longer a chance for a clean miss?

 

so I clearly can not choose the cup in front of me!

 

OK, well, maybe one more...then some one point me to my camper...

 

what was the question again?

 

I reckon you place the targets so that an average sized shooter has enough space between targets for a clean miss, whatever average is.  And those outside the norm, well that gives us something to talk about around the campfire.

 

I hope yer doing well today Widder.

 

Grizz

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I don't think there's any way to put an exact number on this.  "There needs to be a five inch separation between each target".  Instead we TRY to use common sense and leave enough space between targets in all four directions to allow a miss on one to also pass by the others.  This spacing should be maintained no matter what angle the shooter is looking from.  As you correctly pointed out, we have a wide variety of sized shooters in this game. (No Grizz, I'm not poking fun at you. :P)

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This came up at BorderTown a few years back. I was told by a high ranking official in SASS that they like to see 6 - 8 inches between targets or it is just a miss and not a P. Not sure where that number came from but it let us over ride a P and make it just a miss. This should come up in the  walk through so everyone is on the same page.

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1 hour ago, Smoky Pistols said:

Good question.  I think probably the best determination would be based on what happens next after that shoot.  Does the shooter complete the rest of the string as prescribed or not.  But that would only be truly helpful if the next shot was to the same designated target and they hit it the second time. 

 

I'm Thinkin' I'm in this camp...:huh:

providing there is adequate spacing between targets..

 

Rance ;)

Thinkin' I'm afraid it might be deemed "judgement call" :wacko:

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1 hour ago, Grizzly Dave said:

 

so I clearly can not choose the cup in front of me!

 

Grizz

 

Nice PB reference:D 

 

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Major Crimes said:

 

Nice PB reference:D 

 

 

 

 

I caught it too but you were faster than I.

 

good job to both!

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1 hour ago, Tn Tombstone said:

This came up at BorderTown a few years back. I was told by a high ranking official in SASS that they like to see 6 - 8 inches between targets or it is just a miss and not a P. Not sure where that number came from but it let us over ride a P and make it just a miss. This should come up in the  walk through so everyone is on the same page.

 

47 minutes ago, Rance - SASS # 54090 said:

 

I'm Thinkin' I'm in this camp...:huh:

providing there is adequate spacing between targets..

 

Rance ;)

Thinkin' I'm afraid it might be deemed "judgement call" :wacko:

 

I like the 'attitude' on both of these.   

 

Tombstone mentioned a particular distance 'guideline' with good info about walk-thru information.

 

Rance mentioned 'Judgement call'.   The aspect I like about this is that is can weigh heavily in favor

of the shooter, especially if it becomes a 'benefit of doubt' situation.

 

Howdy Grizz.   I'm doing well, thank you.   Hope you are doing well.

I got a 'reasonably' good evaluation from my heart doc last Friday.   He knows a valve replacement is 

in my future, but for now, he says my flow restrictions have leveled off and hopefully can maintain that

status for a while longer.   Like Jimmy Buffet sezs..... "living and dying in 3 quarter time"..... ;)

 

..........Widder

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Grizzly Dave said:

 

I reckon you place the targets so that an average sized shooter has enough space between targets for a clean miss, whatever average is.  And those outside the norm, well that gives us something to talk about around the campfire.

 

The Myth of Average

 

 

 

The USAF spent a lot of money learning this.

Edited by Sedalia Dave

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Posted (edited)

Stages have been ruled differently based on height... At the highest levels of matches. 

 

Not saying that's right, but it has happened. In one particular case, if the shooter was about 5'10" or shorter, a P called on a shooter that was 6'3" would have been ruled a miss... yeah...kinda sux.

 

Phantom

Edited by Phantom, SASS #54973

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29 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

Howdy Grizz.   I'm doing well, thank you.   Hope you are doing well.

I got a 'reasonably' good evaluation from my heart doc last Friday.   He knows a valve replacement is 

in my future, but for now, he says my flow restrictions have leveled off and hopefully can maintain that

status for a while longer.   Like Jimmy Buffet sezs..... "living and dying in 3 quarter time"..... ;)

 

..........Widder

 

 

"leveled off' sounds a whole lot better than increasing for sure.  Stay the course!

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Okay, without being silly....

 

If you are supposed to shoot the targets 1-2-3-4-5 but you hit them 1-2-4-4-5 that would be 1 miss.

 

If you hit them 1-2-4-3-5, that would be a P.

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12 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

Okay, without being silly....

 

If you are supposed to shoot the targets 1-2-3-4-5 but you hit them 1-2-4-4-5 that would be 1 miss.

 

If you hit them 1-2-4-3-5, that would be a P.

Why?? One side of the target is just as good as the other.

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H.K.,

In your example and based solely on my opinion at this time,  if targets 3 & 4 were really close together, OR if they

overlapped,  your 1st example would be 1 Miss.

Your 2nd example would be 2 Misses..... assuming the 'Close or Overlapping' was in play.

 

..........Widder

 

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41 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

 

If you are supposed to shoot the targets 1-2-3-4-5 but you hit them 1-2-4-4-5 that would be 1 miss.

 

 

???? How in the wide wide world of sports is that not a P ?

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7 minutes ago, Wyatt said:

 

???? How in the wide wide world of sports is that not a P ?

 

Howdy Wyatt.   That is a good questions that might help us determine what is allowable within the

definition of 'Clean Miss'.

To answer your question within the subject of 'Clean Miss', if targets 3 & 4 don't allow a Clean Miss, then

their close placement (or overlapping) would only allow a miss..... and not a 'P'.

 

What do you think?

 

..........Widder

 

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In that example target 4 was hit twice. The right type of target was hit in the wrong order so no miss.......P. You can’t prove intent only results 

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3 minutes ago, Wyatt said:

In that example target 4 was hit twice. The right type of target was hit in the wrong order so no miss.......P. You can’t prove intent only results 

The discussion centers around having the ability to actually miss without getting a P based on the targets being too close or overlapping.

 

Phantom

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1 minute ago, Wyatt said:

In that example target 4 was hit twice. The right type of target was hit in the wrong order so no miss.......P. You can’t prove intent only results 

 

Your point is well taken.

But if a shooter shot at #3 and hit #4, then shot at #4 and hit #3,  if those targets are overlapped or only allowed

a 'couple' inches between them,  could the shooter have a legitimate protest that he/she wasn't

allowed a Clean Miss because the targets were too close?

 

I'm not being argumentative or trying to prove a particular point but rather I'm trying to better understand

the 'Clean Miss'  thing.

 

..........Widder

 

 

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Posted (edited)

A clean miss is just a term. Maybe is should be described as not getting a P due to overlapping 

 

 

P lapping :lol:

Edited by Wyatt

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16 minutes ago, Wyatt said:

A clean miss is just a term. Maybe is should be described as not getting a P due to overlapping 

 

 

P lapping :lol:

I've seen non-overlapping targets deemed too close for a "Clean" miss.

 

That's the problem - subjective.

 

Phantom

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12 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I've seen non-overlapping targets deemed too close for a "Clean" miss.

 

That's the problem - subjective.

 

Phantom

Your concerns should be taken to the MD

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4 minutes ago, Wyatt said:

Your concerns should be taken to the MD

Ha!!!

 

Uh, yeah...know that. It of course was...still subjective.

 

Phantom

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17 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Ha!!!

 

Uh, yeah...know that. It of course was...still subjective.

 

Phantom

 

You may have hit that proverbial subjective nail on the tip... ;)

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

H.K.,

In your example and based solely on my opinion at this time,  if targets 3 & 4 were really close together, OR if they

overlapped,  your 1st example would be 1 Miss.

Your 2nd example would be 2 Misses..... assuming the 'Close or Overlapping' was in play.

 

..........Widder

 

 

In H. K.'s example..

In "almost" every stage set up.. 

the targets are all equally spaced..

They might all be spaced too close/overlapping..

Ya got problems..

or they all have adequate spacing..

Example one.. 1-2-4-4-5

Close/overlapping targets.. I can see just a miss..

Benefit of doubt to the shooter..

Adequately spaced targets.. I see a double tap a "P" earned..

Example two.. 1-2-4-3-5

I tend to agree with Wyatt.. A "P" was earned..

To me that's pushing the Benefit of Doubt..

My mind would quickly think..

Shooter was able to shoot targets 1-2&5 no problem..

A  "P" for reversing target sequence on 3 &  4 targets..

 

Rance ;)

Lotta Thinkin' goin on here :wacko:

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6 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Any insight (and even opinions) are appreciated.   

THANKS.

The short-tall thing has come up a number of times at our range.  We have a mock-up western town with fixed windows, doors, and walls.  A year ago, after a near accident, we went through the entire range, lowering window sills to accommodate short folks loading DBL shotguns, raising window tops so that tall folks with back laminectomies could shoot without painfully bending over, and raising doors to prevent tall folks hats from getting knocked off and heads bruised.  

Setting out of targets also needs to consider short and tall people.  I'm a kind of short guy at 5'9".   I've included a photo of a "Procedure Trap" that recently caught me, costing me a "P".  (It probably should have been a No Call, due to obvious target interference.) 

 

Mine was the shot in the top right corner of the lower, front target.  I was shooting the upper (rear) target. 

This is a good example of why space for a clean miss is needed.  A tall person would see a very different, separated-target picture. 

 

Usually we review stage set-ups for clean miss space around plates, prior to a match.  This one got past us.  

20190120_105403.jpg

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I'd also like to mention when we're looking over the targets for clean "missability", a lot of people bend at the knees and actually are firing at a lot lower position than when we are just standing looking at targets.

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Posted (edited)

I usually request that the Match Director make a declaration before the match starts of which stages, if any, have targets set which are so close together that the posse will be allowed to declare they were "too close for a clean miss". 

 

Most Match Directors will take the hint, and declare "All Targets have been set so that a clean miss is possible from well chosen shooting position(s) on each stage."   Thus taking this nasty little "judgement call" out of the hands of individual posses and making the match "the same" for all posses! 

 

Smart Match Directors will have thought about this BEFORE they set the steel, and won't have to guess or walk the range before they can make the statement.

 

Setting steel such that there is no VERTICAL overlap for any height of competitor sometimes requires not setting rifle targets directly behind pistol targets.

 

Good luck, GJ

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708
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13 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

 

Setting steel such that there is no VERTICAL overlap for any height of competitor sometimes requires not setting rifle targets directly behind pistol targets.

 

Good luck, GJ

If you miss a pistol target and hit a rifle target, its just a miss isn't it? Having a pistol or rifle target in front of the same type I would think brings in the possibility of a p instead of a miss. In that situation, if you only have a couple inches of vertical clearance I would assume you don't have room to miss.

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I've never been real happy with the definition of a "Miss". Seems to me that if you shoot the wrong target, you did it wrong. Yeah, I know, if the rifle targets are behind the pistol targets and you miss the pistol, you could hit a rifle target...….. unless there is enough room for a Clean Miss. The way many clubs group up the targets so close together in order to accommodate the zoomers, there is often no room for a Clean Miss, so the Miss rule was written to bring things down to the "T" ball level of play. I know that this is not "Bulls Eye" shooting, so on the other hand maybe the rule is OK. The easiest way around it all is just don't miss.  Ha!

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Yep, Tennessee Williams made a great correction above.   Hitting wrong type of target is of course a miss. 

 

MDs need to make certain they understand they complicate matches and open the door for "too close to miss cleanly" calls when there are front-to-back vertical overlaps of the same type of target (the pistol targets, for example), which may favor either short or tall shooters.  

 

Good luck, GJ 

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Setting steel to allow for a clean miss simply requires leaving enough space between targets to allow a bullet to pass between two targets without striking either.

That is it; nothing more, nothing less.

 

Most match directors will not set steel with only a half inch separation; BUT a half inch will allow a 45 caliber bullet to pass between plates without striking either - that is enough room to allow for a clean miss.

 

The clean miss direction was solely created to protect shooters from "Procedural" penalties that were assigned when a miss on target "1" became a strike on target "2" because of target overlap placement.

 

The thought process being "a miss should not cause a procedural" - that there should be room for a miss to miss all the steel in play.

 

But like all guidance - shooters and match directors tend to take it to the absurd level.

There is NO rule that states 2, 4, or 12 inches of distance between plates.

 

Simply that a bullet missing any one plate has the ability to miss all plates.

 

Good match directors will take into account; heights of shooters, target angles and shooting positions to ensure that a clean miss is available for each shooter.

And my personal rule of thumb when setting steel was minimally 1/4 the width of the plates being used (ie 16" plates got 4 inches spacing, 24" plates got 6 inches, etc.).

It was just more pleasing to my eye that way.

 

But I would contend and will continue to do so that as long as a 45 caliber bullet could pass between the plates without striking either - there was room for a clean miss.

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And then there are shooters who can move to "make" targets overlap. Just by shifting your body position in the shooting "box", you could change overlap and non-overlap of targets. Yes, there are shooters who think this way. Every advantage you can get. And if you blow through a row of targets and they are "overlapped" and you hit the wrong one, it's a miss, right? It is subjective. Unfortunately, we can't always set up targets to make it the same and fair for everyone. I intend to engage and hit all of the targets in the correct order, it just doesn't always work out that way. But I INTENDED to! You can't tell what someone's intentions are, you can just evaluate what they actually did. Maybe all stages should be two 16"x24" rectangles, 10 feet apart, 24 inches off the ground and at 7.5 yards from the shooter. But that's unfair to taller shooters, because they have to shoot down at the targets. And shooters with wider chests have an advantage because the distance between the targets doesn't seem as great and...

You can what if this to death! Life is not fair, all shooters are not alike. Shooters will have different vantage points in stage setups from other shooters.

Can we make things better? Yes; will it always be fair and even to all shooters? No. Where do you draw the line? 1/2" between targets? 12" between targets?

I never miss, the bullets just go where I hadn't "intended" them to. ;) My view

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