klw Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 All the necessary equipment is certainly available. I'm not sure that it is a good idea, however. Anybody done it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 Done it for yrs on my Dillon 550. No mods or changes EXCEPT to hard wire GND the press. This to remove static cling in the powder measure. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326 Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 Yep it is doable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klw Posted January 7, 2019 Author Share Posted January 7, 2019 Interesting. How much variation in the powder charge when dispensing them from a powder measure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrel Cody Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 1 minute ago, klw said: Interesting. How much variation in the powder charge when dispensing them from a powder measure? Not enough that you'd notice. I've a Hornady Black Powder measure setup up on my Hornady Lock N Load AP; the only difference between that and the standard measure is an aluminum hopper and brass drum measure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasper Agate Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 I put a brass tube on my RCBS powder measurer and have been using a RCBS 4X4 progressive press for a couple of decades now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klw Posted January 7, 2019 Author Share Posted January 7, 2019 13 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said: Not enough that you'd notice. I've a Hornady Black Powder measure setup up on my Hornady Lock N Load AP; the only difference between that and the standard measure is an aluminum hopper and brass drum measure. Thanks1 That is very helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 16 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said: Not enough that you'd notice. I've a Hornady Black Powder measure setup up on my Hornady Lock N Load AP; the only difference between that and the standard measure is an aluminum hopper and brass drum measure. I've got the same set up and it works great. BP loads by volume anyway, so you needn't be concerned with weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 klw ... you didn't mention the caliber(s) that you would load on the progressive press. The original powder charges per caliber/bullet weight are the only differences needed versa loading smokeless So, here's the black powder charge tables to use ... https://goexpowder.com/resources/load-charts/ PS: I have been loading BP on a Dillon 550B with a separate powder charger the same as Grits for many years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 I load BlackMZ and some real black on 550b and drop powder with a Lyman 55 black powder measure on top of a Lee powder die. I have to watch that the BlackMZ does not cake up in the powder cavity and start to throw a reduced load. I have a RCBS lockout die in the third station to catch problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klw Posted January 7, 2019 Author Share Posted January 7, 2019 1 hour ago, John Boy said: klw ... you didn't mention the caliber(s) that you would load on the progressive press. The original powder charges per caliber/bullet weight are the only differences needed versa loading smokeless So, here's the black powder charge tables to use ... https://goexpowder.com/resources/load-charts/ PS: I have been loading BP on a Dillon 550B with a separate powder charger the same as Grits for many years That was really helpful. THANK YOU! The two revolvers I am going to load for are the 1873 Dutch 9.4mm and the 1870 German 10.6mm. Also a lever action twelve gauge (the Century Arms version). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Slim SASS #24733 Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 I've been loading 44-40 on my Dillon 550 for 10 years now, no changes to the press except for adjusting the powder charge. I am not worried any static charge. First, because it has been proven to my satisfaction it won't set off the powder, and second, every time I grab the handle on the press any potential charge difference between me and he press goes to zero, so no static. Every few months I read about someone blowing up their primer tube on (mostly) Dillon 650's, but I have never heard of anyone setting off the powder tube with static. I load BP on my un-altered MEC shotgun presses also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 I load APP on my Hornady Lock -n-Load AP. I do use the BP powder hopper they make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 3 hours ago, klw said: Interesting. How much variation in the powder charge when dispensing them from a powder measure? Hope you're plan'n on real BP. The variance depends on the granulation used. I don't have much using the Dillon PM for all, except my .45-90 loads. For that's when I use my MVA, PM and drop tube. I use Goex Old 'E" 2F for everything from my .44 pistol/rifle rounds up to and including .45-90 I load for my Shiloh Sharps rifle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 26 minutes ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said: I've been loading 44-40 on my Dillon 550 for 10 years now, no changes to the press except for adjusting the powder charge. I am not worried any static charge. First, because it has been proven to my satisfaction it won't set off the powder, and second, every time I grab the handle on the press any potential charge difference between me and he press goes to zero, so no static. Every few months I read about someone blowing up their primer tube on (mostly) Dillon 650's, but I have never heard of anyone setting off the powder tube with static. I load BP on my un-altered MEC shotgun presses also. No-static won't set off a BP charge. BUT, it will cause a weight variance that can be avoided with the GND wire. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knarley Bob Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 A rub down with dryer sheets will also take care of "Static Cling" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Slim SASS #24733 Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 Do you have a link to anyone who has actually tested this occurring? Might make for interesting reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Hochbauer, SASS #64409 Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 I have been loading real BP on my Dillon 450 for 44-40 and shotgun on MEC Jr and PW 375....no special mods for either. Sgt Hochbauer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painted Mohawk SASS 77785 Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 I don't take any chances ,I use my progressive's for smokeless & the RCBS Turret with a Hornady BP thrower for the darkside...I drove a fuel tanker in my earlier days & static was your worst enemy.. BP is a big BOOM' when it goes off, especially with how much I have stored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 15 minutes ago, Painted Mohawk SASS 77785 said: I don't take any chances ,I use my progressive's for smokeless & the RCBS Turret with a Hornady BP thrower for the darkside...I drove a fuel tanker in my earlier days & static was your worst enemy.. BP is a big BOOM' when it goes off, especially with how much I have stored. Gasoline scares me far more that BP does. I use to haul Class 1.1 explosives for our government. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickel City Dude Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 I have been making Black Powder blanks for reenacting on my Dillon 650 for more than 10 years and I use the Dillon powder dispenser. Never had a problem with static. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickel City Dude Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 Here is an example of a experiment trying to set off Black Powder with static electricity. http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/sparks/sparks.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 When I load BP on my Dillon 550B, it's the real stuff, and it's metered through a Lyman 55 (the black powder version of that measure). Powder drops through a Lee powder-thru die which expands case mouth and funnels the BP into case (at second station). The Lyman is hand cycled when the shell plate is up. Works like a champ! Never have had a problem with static. DO NOT EVER clean up powder spills and dump THAT possible quartz (sand) source back into the measure. Can you say, flintlock priming a powder measure? As well, if loading BP and most of the subs, you need to clean out (with hot water and a touch of detergent) measures and dies through which the BP is dispensed, to avoid rusting them up! Dry them carefully, do not oil the inside of a powder measure like you might do with your firearms, though - next time you may have a plugged up or rusted measure. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Slim SASS #24733 Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 Funny, I have never, in 10 years, cleaned out my measures with hot water and soap. I change out the powder bars every once in a while(measured in months) and have never seen any rust. The Dillon measures aren't made of steel anyway, just the powder bars, which are coated. I don't have time to be making unnecessary work for myself. And I don't dump out the powder after every loading session either, if I know I am going to get back to it in just a few days. I know, BP absorbs moisture, but it's no like it's going to turn to water like some dessicants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 Bin loading Real Black Powder for bout 50 years ,,,, never cleaned My Measure out, or cleaned any dies with the exception of the bullet seater die due to lube .... I also leave Goex in my powder measure between loading sessions .... If you wish to clean things ,,,,, Have at it .... My shop needs Cleaning ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Any takers ??? Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Eye Jim Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 I was thinking of just hand loading the powder from a brass powder measure, using an empty powder measure to open the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 Howdy I have been loading 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, 44 Russian, and 38-40 on my Hornady Lock & Load AP for years. I only use real Black Powder, usually Schuetzen. Have never used the subs. (Except for a box of 38 S&W I loaded a bunch of years ago with APP) Here is my Lock & Load with Lyman Black Powder measure that I use when loading BP. Here is a shot of a bunch of 45 Colt being loaded. The bullet is the Big Lube PRS 250 grain bullet. You can see the top of the powder charge in the case closest to the camera. Here is a close up of the rotor on the Lyman BP powder measure. I buy old Lyman powder measures whenever I find them at white elephant tables at gun shows. The rotors interchange with the rotor on the BP measure. I keep each rotor set to the specific powder charge I use for each cartridge. You will notice in the previous photo I use the same powder charge for 45 Colt and 44-40. As others have said, the variation in powder charge from throw to throw for Black Powder does not matter much for what we do. Long distance, precision 45-70 for my Sharps is different, and I use a drop tube for every round. But not for what we do. Regarding the correct powder charge, it couldn't be simpler. Pour in enough powder so that when the bullet is seated it will compress the powder by about 1/16" - 1/8". That's all there is to it. Here is my handy dandy method of determining the proper PB powder charge for any given cartridge and bullet combination: Measure the distance between the base of the bullet and the crimp groove. Transfer that measurement to the side of a case by scratching it in with the jaws of your caliper. Make a little ruler from a little stick to measure off the same distance. Ask your wife (with her lovely long fingernails) to hold the little ruler with the pencil mark even with the case mouth. Pour in enough powder so it covers the bottom of the ruler by about 1/16" - 1/8". That is the correct amount of powder for that cartridge and bullet combination. Pour it out and measure it. Weigh it if you want, of course you can weigh out Black Powder. I always get a kick out of those guys who say not to weigh Black Powder. It does not matter. Find or make a convenient dipper that will pour out that much powder. I set the rotors for my BP measure by adjusting them until they fill the appropriate dipper. Let's talk about Static Electricity and Black Powder for a moment. In the electronics industry, where I worked for a long, long time, it is referred to as Electro Static Discharge (ESD). I used to get training every year in the amount of damage a tiny spark can do to delicate electronic components. When a spark jumps to ground, heat is created as the current jumps through the air. With a really big spark, like a lightning bolt, the air can get heated to 50,000 degrees F. The little sparks we create when we walk across a rug and touch a doorknob are not as hot, but they do generate heat. I always get a kick out of that website that shows how an ESD spark will not ignite Black Powder. Check out the last photo. That tells the entire story. The current is traveling over the surface of the powder grains. It is not traveling through them. Modern Black Powder has a graphite coating on it, to help it flow better in a powder measure. The graphite coating is the saving grace regarding Black Powder and ESD. The charge travels over the surface of the powder grains without meeting enough resistance to generate enough heat to ignite the powder. Several years ago I was in Florence Italy. One day I visited the Galileo Museum. These devices are called Thunder Boxes. They were designed by early experimenters with electricity. A small pile of Black Powder was placed on the brass pedestal. The 'switch' on the side of the box was set as shown, with a brass rod 'connecting' the sphere at the top to the chain inside. Then a charged Leyden Jar ( a very early, primitive type of capacitor) would be touched to the sphere at the top. Guess what? BOOM! And the box would burst open as it was designed to do. So, what did we learn from this? In those days, Black Powder did not have a graphite coating on it. Yes, a spark, or a charge of current, will most certainly ignite Black Powder if the current generates enough heat as it passes through the powder grains. We are just fortunate today that manufacturers put a graphite coating on Black Powder grains. The graphite is a better conductor than the powder itself, so the current follows the path of least resistance. I prefer not to do a lot of BP loading in the dry winter. I take some of the precautions I learned in the electronics industry. The humidity is always left high in assembly rooms where delicate electronic components are being assembled, so ESD charges will not build up in the first place. Maybe I'm extra cautious, but that's what I learned years ago. A grounding wire may help keep BP from clumping, but it will not help dissipate the static charge you build up on your body every time you move through the air. Every time you touch the machine, current will jump from you to the machine, to ground. You may not feel it, you don't feel a spark unless it reaches about 10,000 volts, but it will happen. The only way to truly avoid ESD discharge when working with Black Powder is to work in a humid room, ground the machine, ground the working surface, sit on a grounded stool on a ESD dissapative floor, and wear a ground strap grounding you to the work bench. OK, enough lecture about ESD. I prefer not to load on really dry days. Regarding cleaning out the BP measure: What I found a long time ago is that when I'm done, if I leave the brass rotor in the iron body of the BP measure, fine dust left behind on the rotor will attract moisture from the air. This will corrode the brass, and if left in the iron body of the measure, the two will 'rust' for want of a better word, together. So when I am done with a loading session I always drain the powder out of the aluminum hopper of the powder measure, remove the brass rotor, dust it off and put it back on the shelf with the others. I have never washed any part of my BP powder measure. And I always crumple up a paper towel and leave it in the iron body where the rotor usually sits, until the next time. This is so if I get forgetful (If?) I don't fill up the hopper with no rotor present. I learned that after I had to sweep up powder off the floor a few times. I only had to sweep up powder a few times before I figured out that strategy. 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Painted Mohawk SASS 77785 Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 2 hours ago, Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 said: Howdy I have been loading 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, 44 Russian, and 38-40 on my Hornady Lock & Load AP for years. I only use real Black Powder, usually Schuetzen. Have never used the subs. (Except for a box of 38 S&W I loaded a bunch of years ago with APP) Here is my Lock & Load with Lyman Black Powder measure that I use when loading BP. Here is a shot of a bunch of 45 Colt being loaded. The bullet is the Big Lube PRS 250 grain bullet. You can see the top of the powder charge in the case closest to the camera. Here is a close up of the rotor on the Lyman BP powder measure. I buy old Lyman powder measures whenever I find them at white elephant tables at gun shows. The rotors interchange with the rotor on the BP measure. I keep each rotor set to the specific powder charge I use for each cartridge. You will notice in the previous photo I use the same powder charge for 45 Colt and 44-40. As others have said, the variation in powder charge from throw to throw for Black Powder does not matter much for what we do. Long distance, precision 45-70 for my Sharps is different, and I use a drop tube for every round. But not for what we do. Regarding the correct powder charge, it couldn't be simpler. Pour in enough powder so that when the bullet is seated it will compress the powder by about 1/16" - 1/8". That's all there is to it. Here is my handy dandy method of determining the proper PB powder charge for any given cartridge and bullet combination: Measure the distance between the base of the bullet and the crimp groove. Transfer that measurement to the side of a case by scratching it in with the jaws of your caliper. Make a little ruler from a little stick to measure off the same distance. Ask your wife (with her lovely long fingernails) to hold the little ruler with the pencil mark even with the case mouth. Pour in enough powder so it covers the bottom of the ruler by about 1/16" - 1/8". That is the correct amount of powder for that cartridge and bullet combination. Pour it out and measure it. Weigh it if you want, of course you can weigh out Black Powder. I always get a kick out of those guys who say not to weigh Black Powder. It does not matter. Find or make a convenient dipper that will pour out that much powder. I set the rotors for my BP measure by adjusting them until they fill the appropriate dipper. Let's talk about Static Electricity and Black Powder for a moment. In the electronics industry, where I worked for a long, long time, it is referred to as Electro Static Discharge (ESD). I used to get training every year in the amount of damage a tiny spark can do to delicate electronic components. When a spark jumps to ground, heat is created as the current jumps through the air. With a really big spark, like a lightning bolt, the air can get heated to 50,000 degrees F. The little sparks we create when we walk across a rug and touch a doorknob are not as hot, but they do generate heat. I always get a kick out of that website that shows how an ESD spark will not ignite Black Powder. Check out the last photo. That tells the entire story. The current is traveling over the surface of the powder grains. It is not traveling through them. Modern Black Powder has a graphite coating on it, to help it flow better in a powder measure. The graphite coating is the saving grace regarding Black Powder and ESD. The charge travels over the surface of the powder grains without meeting enough resistance to generate enough heat to ignite the powder. Several years ago I was in Florence Italy. One day I visited the Galileo Museum. These devices are called Thunder Boxes. They were designed by early experimenters with electricity. A small pile of Black Powder was placed on the brass pedestal. The 'switch' on the side of the box was set as shown, with a brass rod 'connecting' the sphere at the top to the chain inside. Then a charged Leyden Jar ( a very early, primitive type of capacitor) would be touched to the sphere at the top. Guess what? BOOM! And the box would burst open as it was designed to do. So, what did we learn from this? In those days, Black Powder did not have a graphite coating on it. Yes, a spark, or a charge of current, will most certainly ignite Black Powder if the current generates enough heat as it passes through the powder grains. We are just fortunate today that manufacturers put a graphite coating on Black Powder grains. The graphite is a better conductor than the powder itself, so the current follows the path of least resistance. I prefer not to do a lot of BP loading in the dry winter. I take some of the precautions I learned in the electronics industry. The humidity is always left high in assembly rooms where delicate electronic components are being assembled, so ESD charges will not build up in the first place. Maybe I'm extra cautious, but that's what I learned years ago. A grounding wire may help keep BP from clumping, but it will not help dissipate the static charge you build up on your body every time you move through the air. Every time you touch the machine, current will jump from you to the machine, to ground. You may not feel it, you don't feel a spark unless it reaches about 10,000 volts, but it will happen. The only way to truly avoid ESD discharge when working with Black Powder is to work in a humid room, ground the machine, ground the working surface, sit on a grounded stool on a ESD dissapative floor, and wear a ground strap grounding you to the work bench. OK, enough lecture about ESD. I prefer not to load on really dry days. Regarding cleaning out the BP measure: What I found a long time ago is that when I'm done, if I leave the brass rotor in the iron body of the BP measure, fine dust left behind on the rotor will attract moisture from the air. This will corrode the brass, and if left in the iron body of the measure, the two will 'rust' for want of a better word, together. So when I am done with a loading session I always drain the powder out of the aluminum hopper of the powder measure, remove the brass rotor, dust it off and put it back on the shelf with the others. I have never washed any part of my BP powder measure. And I always crumple up a paper towel and leave it in the iron body where the rotor usually sits, until the next time. This is so if I get forgetful (If?) I don't fill up the hopper with no rotor present. I learned that after I had to sweep up powder off the floor a few times. I only had to sweep up powder a few times before I figured out that strategy. Your posts are always informative & helpful..thanks Driftwood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 Well said Driftwood I see that we use the same brand and model of calipers I do clean my Dillon PM after BP with a towel wet with 90% ISP. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Four Eyes Henry Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 This is my set up..... Piggyback with modified Uniflow (brass hopper) and Lee Pro Auto Disk for fillers. Using it for 10 years now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klw Posted January 8, 2019 Author Share Posted January 8, 2019 where did you get the brass powder hopper? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 You bet....I load on a Dillon Super 1050 that I acquired from owner of Black Dawge who loaded BP ammo commercially. When I loaded Cowboy Goex, as he did, even had dedicated station for filler drop after powder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 I have been loading black powder 45 Colt cartridges on my Dillon 550B since 1987 when I first bought it. I've loaded during the Summer, Winter, Spring and Fall as needed. We're kinda humid here in North Texas, but I do curtail any loading during electrical storms. I've done nothing special to the press or the measure... The measure has discolored from the BP that run thru it... I loaded in the garage when I lived in CA, and it's now set up in my metal barn since 1991. It's bolted to a wooden bench, I use the "rifle" slide for the powder measure, and find my charges are as consistent as any other thrown charge. I used to load two different loadings, either 25 or 32 grains of Goex "Cartridge", no fillers, but use a waxed card wad below the bullet. I only load 2-300 rounds per session... Sometimes have as much 500 rounds on hand... I now only load 30 grains of "Cartridge", no filler, but use a waxed card wad below the bullet to protect the base, and to keep any lube from contaminating the powder. I cut the cards from milk cartons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 Pards, my recommendation to periodically clean out the powder measures used with real BP comes from this little note in the instruction manual for my Lyman 55 Black Powder measures: Quote CAUTION: Black powder residue will be found on the powder measure body and metering cylinder after use. This residue can cause rust to form on the cast iron powder measure body, particularly in humid conditions. Lyman recommends that the metering cylinder be removed from the empty powder measure (this is done by removing the slide end plate screw and pulling the metering cylinder out of the body--see parts breakdown) and that the inside of the powder measure body and outside of the metering cylinder be cleaned. They should be wiped off with a damp cloth and dried with a clean cloth. Do not oil the parts. Cleaning should be done after several uses or before storage Lyman (and Ideal before Ideal was bought up by Lyman) does know a thing or two about loading and about Black Powder. You of course are free to ignore their 100 plus years of experience. You are also free to assume that aluminum meter parts don't need the same type of care as do cast iron and brass. That assumption could well be unsupported. Same kind of concern for steel parts in the loading dies which charge cases with BP might well exist. Your experience can show that there will be no corrosion, at the same time that my experience says the opposite. All I've got for proof is my experience. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 I must confess GJ that I have no idea where the instructions for my Lyman BP powder measure are. Been using it for years, I don't remember if I ever read them or not. Then again, I don't remember what I had for breakfast today. I think we are actually saying the same thing. I always empty the powder out of any powder measure when I am done, Black Powder or Smokeless. I found through experience that if I left the brass rotor, I guess Lyman calls it the Metering Cylinder, in the powder measure at the end of a loading session, the fine BP dust left behind would cause corrosion from moisture sucked out of the air and jam the rotor in place. Probably the dissimilar metals don't help. So now after every loading session I dump out the powder, then remove the aluminum hopper, and dump out the little bit of powder still sitting against the rotor. Then I remove the rotor and place it on the shelf with the others. I dust off the inside of the iron body with a dry paper towel, never tried a damp one. It only makes sense for me to remove the rotor because I have four of them set for different powder charges. Still need another one for 38-40. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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