Tony Crowe Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 I have noticed lately some cowboy matches are offering a side match or at least an opportunity to shoot a Pistol Caliber Carbine. School me on the topic. What PCC would you recommend to someone that might like to try it out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-BAR #18287 Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 For most of us I think that just means our main match rifle. Shoot what you brought! They state it that way to differentiate the side match from the big bore buffalo gun type rifles. Some matches allow those rifles in long range side matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Crowe Posted December 23, 2018 Author Share Posted December 23, 2018 What I am seeing is different from our normal cowboy lever action match rifle. In fact it not cowboy at all. They are shooting AR style rifles chambered in 9mm like a SIG MPX PCC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantankerous Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 Yup. Not cowboy guns. PCC's are generally evil black rifles. 9mm is a popular caliber but not the only one. The Colt AR6951 is but one example. A 9mm AR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-BAR #18287 Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 In my defense, I have never seen AR or modern military type rifles used in any CAS side match. I don't want to tell anyone they can't have fun with their guns, but I am one of the few folks in the world that don't own one and don't know how they operate, so I would not want to be TO/RO at any event where they were used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pill Roller, SASS #77160 Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 Hi point and Ruger make them too. Hi Point has .380, 9mm, .40 and .45acp We use them in steel challenge and uspsa matches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantankerous Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 7 minutes ago, J-BAR #18287 said: In my defense, I have never seen AR or modern military type rifles used in any CAS side match. I don't want to tell anyone they can't have fun with their guns, but I am one of the few folks in the world that don't own one and don't know how they operate, so I would not want to be TO/RO at any event where they were used. I understand where you're coming from, non cowboy guns in a cowboys side match. But, I think a lot of guys enjoy the shooting venue and possibility of more trigger time and some places can pull it off just fine offering only more fun for the individual shooter. I have no dog in this fight as I've only witnessed this side match but certainly would like to participate simply because it is more shooting and more shooting is always more gooder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocWard Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Tony Crowe said: I have noticed lately some cowboy matches are offering a side match or at least an opportunity to shoot a Pistol Caliber Carbine. School me on the topic. What PCC would you recommend to someone that might like to try it out? They've been around for awhile. The Ruger PC9 is a 9mm, with the capability of taking either Ruger SR9 or Glock double stack 9mm mags. It's also a takedown, sort of like the 10/22 Takedown. I've been hearing good things about them. The Beretta CX-4 Storm is a bit more pricey, comes in 9 or .40 and has a "space gun" look to it, and takes Beretta 92/96 mags, or adapted to use PX-4 mags. Since I own Berettas, this has been on my wish list for awhile. If you want to get really pricey, Sig makes the MPX as a pistol caliber carbine. Hi-Point makes one, and I've yet to hear anyone who owns one say anything but good things about them, unlike the pistols. However, compared to the Ruger and Beretta, I find them heavy and somewhat unwieldy. As for what they may be good for, other than plinking, it appears from what I have seen and read that they will offer increased muzzle velocity over a handgun, with 9mm increasing somewhere in the 100-200 fps range. From my viewpoint, one would make a good truck gun, a good "bug out" gun, or be good for a home defense weapon, particularly for someone who is not comfortable with the recoil of, or doesn't have the strength for, a handgun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpo Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 This comes up periodically. "It's a good thing if we get to shoot more. WHO CARES if it's not cowboy, that this game was designed for. I wanna shoot my 1911. I wanna shoot my bolt action rifle. I wanna shoot my Thompson. I wanna shoot my Hi Point. "It doesn't MATTER yhat it's not vowboy. We're shooting, and that's what's important." No. No it's not. This is a game. Games have rules. If you don't want to play by the rules, then don't play the game. Go start your own game. Invent your own rules. Shoot any gun you want, do it wearing anything you want. Enjoy yourself. But not at a cowboy match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 I like all my guns. I enjoy shooting. But cowboy matches are for Cowboy Guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutch Nichols, SASS #6461 Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 They are a poor choice for home defense the 9mm is already over penetrative and the added velocity makes it worse The 556 is a better choice with better stoping power and actually penetrates physical barriers , ie wallboard less than the 9mm as 556 rounds tend to yaw and break apart don’t believe me, google it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Riot Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 Huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purly SASS # 57438 Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 At Tennessee Mountain Mauraders we have a PCC steel challenge side match before the SASS main match. Usually 27 knockdown targets . More trigger time, fun to compete with your friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 My personal opinion is let's keep Cowboy shooting Cowboy shooting! I don't even like Wild Bunch! If it's a side match fine but I'm still not going to take part! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Duncan Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 8 hours ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said: Huh? What you said in double. Huh? Huh? .223/5.56 doesn't penetrate like a 9mm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocWard Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 While I will agree that Cowboy Action matches, including side matches, should be cowboy guns, does that really mean other firearms don't belong, period? I don't know that I have an opinion on the subject. I can see arguments both ways on the subject. Sure, having ARs and PCCs, and the like around moves us away from the "fantasy" of the wild west, but so do plenty of other things. Is it a good thing if shooters can fire and try out guns they normally wouldn't, if they were somewhat removed from the main match, for demonstration / instructive purposes? I'm thinking of buying one of the Browning "baby" 1911s in .380 and there's one for me to try out. Or my wife wants to know the difference in feel between an AR and a PCC before we shell out some money, and there are two side by side. Or, the more likely scenario... "Huh, I've never fired the [insert firearm here], and there's one sitting, ready to shoot. Why not?" No special trip and no fees to try them out at a gun range. We're able to help our fellow shooters out and give something back. I'm still not sure I have an opinion, but it seems there is more to argue "for" than "against." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 I started with a cheap Hi Point 9mm carbine, lots of fun but jammed sometimes, and proprietary magazines. Then I lucked into a Just Right carbine, very reliable and takes Glock mags, but disassembly was a pain. Sold tha and got the Freedom Ordnance FX-9 reliable, takes Glock mags, and takes down easy like an AR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocWard Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 36 minutes ago, Matthew Duncan said: What you said in double. Huh? Huh? .223/5.56 doesn't penetrate like a 9mm? From what I have read and reviewed from behind the gun counter, pistol caliber rounds have often been found to over penetrate more than .223 / 5.56 through wall structures, creating the possibility of collateral injury. Some hollow points have been seen to have the cavity filled with wallboard limiting expansion. There are some pistol caliber ammo types out there, such as Federal Guard Dog, that are specifically designed not to over penetrate through wallboard and the like, while still giving good expansion. .223 does tend to yaw and fragment when hitting wallboard, 2x4s and the like, so that when it exits, it is in multiple small pieces, which, while able to cause injury, doesn't have as much likelihood of causing fatal injury. The downside is they have often over penetrated human bodies. There are a couple of manufacturers, Hornady being one if I recall, that are making defensive hollow point rounds in the 40gr. range, which are supposed to be pretty devastating when they strike, and will do not go through ballistics gel or it's biological counterpart. I don't know if there have been much in the way of studies of what happens with the added velocities offered by PCCs in the different bullet weights and types available currently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sassnetguy50 Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 Kel-Tec makes the Sub-2000 in 9mm or 40S&W. It is a blowback design PCC that folds and uses pistol magazines: Glock, S&W, Beretta, Sig Sauer. It'll fit under your truck seat when folded. Weighs about the same as a 92 but very different feel. You have to side mount an optic if you want to fold the carbine. Factory sights are good enough to hit paper plates freehand at 100 yards. You need to choose which pistol magazine you want to use before ordering because the sub-2000 is not a simple adapter change like the Ruger PCC. The local SASS shoot only takes a section of the range back in the woods. The rest of the range is still open. I see no reason they can't have a modern sidematch on that public section of range. The public exposure might help grow CAS (we could use more young guns to carry on the sport). Should an AR be sitting in your cart while shooting a SASS stage? No! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Riot Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 2 hours ago, Matthew Duncan said: What you said in double. Huh? Huh? .223/5.56 doesn't penetrate like a 9mm? Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Riot Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 I laugh when people get all perturbed about how something isn’t “Cowboy” when no “Cowboy” worth his salt back in the Old West would: - shoot WIMP loads. - haul his guns in a cart unless he had a wagon. - wear unnecessary garb. And I am pretty sure would laugh his fool head off if he ever saw a modern day CAS match with targets you can spit on and the challenge is to memorize stupid target sequences and go as fast as you can shooting loads they’d be ashamed of ever using in real “Cowboy” life. There! I said it. If it makes you mad or offends you that’s just plain tough. I don’t really care. CAS sure as hell isn’t what it started out to be. Who cares of somone one wants to have some extra fun at a match...maybe if CAS was what it once was people wouldn’t have to find other ways to make it I interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Riot Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 And by the way, Tony Crowe , I apologize for getting my dander up on your thread. I own a Ruger PC Carbine in 9mm and I think it’s probably now my favorite fun long gun. It’ll take Glock and Ruger magazines and it’s more accurate than I am. I installed an Odin Works Atlas compensator on it and it hardly has any barrel rise at all. I have only shot factory Blazer Brass FMJ and American Gunner 9mm ammo out of it and it performs superbly with that ammo. I use Glock mags in mine. One thing I did find out was the configuration of the breech is such that if you have a Glock mag that has a wide lip gap (old worn out mag) it allows the cartridge to strike low on the breech fac. This could jam the bullet down into the casing which isn’t good. Fortunately I saw this when the jam occurred and didn’t try to reuse the cartridges that were damaged. If you get a chance to try a PC Carbine I think you might like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irish Pat Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 This was shot at Comin at Cha this past fall. The guys shooting had a great time. I am thinking about purchasing the Ruger PC 9mm and trying it next year. Irish Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Church Key, SASS # 33713 Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 In my neck of the woods, both IDPA and ASI have PCC-allowed matches. I shoot ASI (Action Shooting International - See Dillon's Blue Book) indoors at a range in Frederick, MD. I picked up a Chiappa M1-9 used for $300. Only issue is that it uses Beretta 92 magazines, which are pricy. Finally ended up with 2-15, 2-20, and 1-30 rounder at about 1/2 the cost of the rifle, which only comes with 2-10 rounders. The ASI stages usually average >30 rounds. Had I realized the magazine issue, would have probably gone with a Ruger PCC and Glock mags. That said, the Chiappa seems to work fine. Its mag release is on the right side, so I carry mags in a Glock carrier and load with my right hand. That said, I don't think that PCC's belong in Cowboy matches. There are other match choices that might be available. Church Key Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixgun Sheridan Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 58 minutes ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said: I laugh when people get all perturbed about how something isn’t “Cowboy” when no “Cowboy” worth his salt back in the Old West would: - shoot WIMP loads. - haul his guns in a cart unless he had a wagon. - wear unnecessary garb. And I am pretty sure would laugh his fool head off if he ever saw a modern day CAS match with targets you can spit on and the challenge is to memorize stupid target sequences and go as fast as you can shooting loads they’d be ashamed of ever using in real “Cowboy” life. There! I said it. If it makes you mad or offends you that’s just plain tough. I don’t really care. CAS sure as hell isn’t what it started out to be. Who cares of somone one wants to have some extra fun at a match...maybe if CAS was what it once was people wouldn’t have to find other ways to make it I interesting. If I could "like" your post ten times over I would. When today's CAS shooters are running guns with short stroke kits and fanning the hammers while firing loads with less power than a .22LR I find it hard to take "it should only be about cowboy guns!" arguments seriously. Sorry pards, but the guns used these days aren't cowboy guns in anything but external profile. Somebody seriously needs to put the COWBOY back into cowboy action shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Crowe Posted December 23, 2018 Author Share Posted December 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said: And by the way, Tony Crowe , I apologize for getting my dander up on your thread. Pat no offense taken. I am just seeking a better understanding of the PCC arena, not trying to mix up cowboy and other modern versions of firearms. Over the past year or so I have seen the topic come up in discussions among cowboy shooters. I don’t think anyone wants to mixup the two different styles of shooting. Most CAS folks I know are generally gun guys at heart that like to shoot all types of firearms. It seems to me that having the opportunity to shoot a PCC while at the range at the end of a CAS match is not a bad thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawMan Mark, SASS #57095L Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 I love shooting. Cowboy Action Shooting aint the only game out there. More trigger time is not a bad thing in my book. I shoot IDPA and 3 gun, as well as Action Rimfire. Since I picked up a Ruger PC 9, I intend to start with some Pro steel as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 4 hours ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said: If you get a chance to try a PC Carbine I think you might like it. What's a politically correct carbine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Riot Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 24 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said: What's a politically correct carbine? PC = Pistol Caliber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantankerous Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 19 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said: What's a politically correct carbine? Groooooaaaaan. Someone was bound to say it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantankerous Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 4 hours ago, Irish-Pat said: This was shot at Comin at Cha this past fall. The guys shooting had a great time. I am thinking about purchasing the Ruger PC 9mm and trying it next year. Irish Pat Ain't that all that really matters? More shooting is always a good thing, I figger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assassin Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 Considering that the PCC match is run on the same targets as a cowboy match, is it lead bullets only? I've talked to a couple guys that shoot PCC and they said it's more rounds than a cowboy match and requires a mag change. Sounds like defensive shooting. I've seen some video, without seeing it up close it's difficult to determine how to set up a match. Sounds like I'll be purchasing a new carbine, I've been wanting a Ruger in 9mm since they came out, now I have an excuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixgun Sheridan Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said: What's a politically correct carbine? Daisy Red Ryder Of course there are places where even THEY are regulated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mud Marine,SASS#54686 Life Posted December 24, 2018 Share Posted December 24, 2018 My cowboy "long range" pistol caliber rifle is a .44 Remington Magnum Henry Big Boy. That'sthe most accurate caliber and the Big Boy is a tack driver. It can win if the nut that holds the trigger is squared away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantankerous Posted December 24, 2018 Share Posted December 24, 2018 46 minutes ago, Sixgun Sheridan said: Daisy Red Ryder Of course there are places where even THEY are regulated! You'll shoot yore eye out with one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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