Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Cautionary Note about Posting Loading Data


Recommended Posts

Howdy All

 

First off, I am going to say at the start that I disagree with the SASS Wire's new policy of allowing loading data to be posted. I have always felt that not allowing data to be posted was a good idea. The reason is it only takes one typo to post erroneous data, with potentially disastrous results. Yes, I know that other forums allow it, but I think the old policy of not allowing data to be posted was a good one, for that simple reason. And yes, I understand that it is the reader's responsibility to check posted data against published data to be sure it is accurate.

 

Anyway, now that posting loading data is allowed, I would ask that those  who post data make sure it is correct. Proof read what you wrote before you hit the Submit Button. Make sure it is correct. And be sure you state not only the powder name and charge in grains, but also make sure you define exactly what weight bullet you are using. X.X grains of Whiz Bang under a 200 grain bullet may be perfectly safe, but the same charge of Whiz Bang under a 250 grain bullet may lead to disaster.

 

To those who are reading these postings, be sure you double check the information against published data to make sure it is safe. I have already seen a couple of loads that I know were unsafe, as well as at least one post with no reference to bullet weight, although the poster claimed it was good for three different calibers.

 

Caveat Lector.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 110
  • Created
  • Last Reply

I reloaded for many years before getting into CAS.  I always used published loading data. Now there is loading data available online by many powder and components companies.  But when I tried to load down with lighter bullets and charges for CAS,  I fell out of the range of the published load information.  I found out I had to up my charges to at least the starter load to get clean burns and consistent results. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Remember you guys, we're all stoopid here...:mellow:

 

Phantom

 

I do not see the need for snide remarks. Posting loading data is serious stuff, and yes, there are a few newbies here who might not be aware of some of the things I said.

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 said:

 

Phantom

 

I do not see the need for snide remarks. Posting loading data is serious stuff, and yes, there are a few newbies here who might not be aware of some of the things I said.

Sometimes snide remarks are necessary...

 

Phantom

Link to post
Share on other sites

I try to include the source of my data, hopefully a credible one, typically Lyman or Hodgdon "Cowboy".

One thing to note is that when we try to use .38 Special for everything and seat well beyond any crimp groove, I think we are outside of any proven, published data, at least technically. We simply need testimony from each other about what works, so theses postings are invaluable. Do we really need something else to be anal about here?

 

Personally, I use 357 Magnum cases in my rifle loads so I can use crimp grooves and because it is what runs reliably in the rifle. Keeping rifle and pistol ammo separate has never been a problem. However, I do have two reloading machines to make that convenient for 38 Colt/38 Special revolvers and a rifle that likes 357 Magnum.

Link to post
Share on other sites

What I did was use some recommendations from shooters as a starting point in my research.  When I decided what to start with I loaded a small run of them, (with a tight roll crimp in the groove), then loaded some in small increments on either side of that load. Off to the indoor range and carefully shot at predetermined distances to see what grouped best and closest to point of aim, and what felt best to me shooting one-handed.  I like a bit of recoil as it helps to recock for the follow-up shot.  (my preference, others may have different 'druthers).  I also prefer not to alter my sights, but to alter the load to achieve best results, again my preference.  I found that different guns print differently.  For instance, a short barreled Colt 1860 conversion shoots differently than a longer barreled Ruger Vaquero with the same load.  

 

The loads posted can be good places to start.  Trust but verify.  Do some research.  Do some testing.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, McCandless said:

The loads posted can be good places to start.  Trust but verify.  Do some research.  Do some testing.

Amen to that and remember, your chrono is your best friend ..

 

MS

Link to post
Share on other sites

Good points DJ.

 

Reloading takes some thought and diligence.

 

I think  a good reloading manual (or three) complements a chronograph. And read the particulars listed in the recipe- primer,  case, barrel length, overall length.

 

 

And start the proverbial 10% below listed data.

Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, The Coconino Pistolero, SASS # 72432 said:

Good points DJ.

 

Reloading takes some thought and diligence.

 

I think  a good reloading manual (or three) complements a chronograph. And read the particulars listed in the recipe- primer,  case, barrel length, overall length.

 

 

And start the proverbial 10% below listed data.

10% below maximum maybe.  Not below listed data. That can be dangerous. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Driftwood - agree with you 100%. Back in 2017, I put together 2 different reloading posts in the SASS FAQ Section.  VERY SELDOM used ... so I posted them on the Wire now that reloading data is allowed. AND ALL THE DATA POSTED IS VERIFIED

Link to post
Share on other sites

As important as correct data is applying that information.

True story:

had a new CAS Shooter. Had some reloading experience. Shooting 45 Colt. His load were pretty stout. We “encouraged” him to tone them down. Still shot target rattlers. We showed him the pock marks on targets and said he really had to reduce his loads. 

Next match he tells me he had changed his load to 4.5 Bullseye, 200 grn bullet. I thought that sounded about right. 

 

KABOOM! Loads sounded hotter than ever. After 2 stages we told him he could not shoot those as they were too hot. He insured they were 4.5 Bullseye which should have been a mild load. Then he had a csse separation in rifle. We pretty much insisted he finish match with other guns/ammo. (I loaned him mine). A Pard pocketed a few rounds, when he got home pulled them down. Found 14.5 Bullseye. Shooter had his balance scale set incorrectly, the 10 poise was in the wrong place!!!! How in the world those Ubertis did not come apart is beyond me!!

 

told the Shooter what we had found his response was. “I’ll just use the rest of them for hog loads. We tried to convince him that was a bad idea. I’m betting he shot them!

 

moral of the story: if you think something ain’t right, SAY/DO SOMETHING.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

told the Shooter what we had found his response was. “I’ll just use the rest of them for hog loads. We tried to convince him that was a bad idea. I’m betting he shot them!

Quote

A Pard pocketed a few rounds, when he got home pulled them down. Found 14.5 Bullseye. Shooter had his balance scale set incorrectly, the 10 poise was in the wrong place!!!!

 

Hoss ... a classic example of ... " Lord I am Coming. Forgive me for my stupidity because I am too cheap to buy reloading reference books"  I am of the opinion that there are some SASS shooters that should be banned from owning firearms

Link to post
Share on other sites

Certainly banned from reloading!

 

and I can think of 1 or 2 that ought to be banned from posting on the wire!!!!

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Hoss said:

Certainly banned from reloading!

 

and I can think of 1 or 2 that ought to be banned from posting on the wire!!!!

I'd respond to that via PM... but you're not accepting PM's...oh darn :wacko:

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Hoss said:

told the Shooter what we had found his response was. “I’ll just use the rest of them for hog loads. We tried to convince him that was a bad idea. I’m betting he shot them!

 

Sounds like he's competing for the Darwin Award...  :wacko:

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I'd respond to that via PM... but you're not accepting PM's...oh darn :wacko:

Should be plenty of room in my inbox. 

Or email jrooney@brownwatermarine.com

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, John Henry Quick said:

 

Sounds like he's competing for the Darwin Award...  :wacko:

Yea, I don’t think he had any idea how lucky he was that his guns did not come apart. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Yea, I don’t think he had any idea how lucky he was that his guns did not come apart. 

And anyone standing in close proximity didn't obtain scars from the metal parts ...

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Tex Jones, SASS 2263 said:

i'm all for verifying data before posting, but that has nothing to do with setting the powder scale incorrectly.

You are correct Tex. 

 

When I'm using a new powder or load I use 2 scales, my trusty balance beam and a somewhat finicky electronic scale. I use the electronic scale to verify the beam scale. Overall, I trust the beam way more. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm curious.....the folks over at Castboolits.....have y'all heard about alot of the "newbies" over there blowing themselves up from mistyped load data? they have had entire threads on sticky for years with load data, per cartridge, and I have never heard of any issues, and been reading that forum years before I ever heard of SASS.

 

Just a thought.

 

BD

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Buckshot Dobbs said:

I'm curious.....the folks over at Castboolits.....have y'all heard about alot of the "newbies" over there blowing themselves up from mistyped load data? they have had entire threads on sticky for years with load data, per cartridge, and I have never heard of any issues, and been reading that forum years before I ever heard of SASS.

 

Cast Boolits is primarily a reloaders forum.

 

Maybe the posters at Castboolits are more experienced at reloading than the Newbies in SASS?

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 said:

 

Cast Boolits is primarily a reloaders forum.

 

Maybe the posters at Castboolits are more experienced at reloading than the Newbies in SASS?

So they get the benefit of the doubt when the rest of us on here don’t. Respectfully I cannot disagree with you more. The allowance of the sharing of load data increases the usefullness of this forum. And also brings this forum up to speed with other high traffic forums within the shooting sports. Personsl responsibility is still king. I know more than a few terrible handloaders that own several manusls. We all void our firearms warranties the first time we send the first handloaded round down range out of them. The sky is not falling, and if we were that worried about it I’m not sure any of us would bother to leave the house with our guns. My only hope is that a thread like this doesen’t discourage and imtimidate someone from participating or contributing.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I was not aware until today that load data can be posted. That said  I am very choosy about using ammo that is loaded by anyone but myself. Unless it is from someone that I trust.

The same goes for information posted on the wire. There are members that post on the wire that I find to be good and reliable sources of information. Also some quite the opposite...

 

Sgt H

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Captain Bill
On 10/6/2018 at 6:59 PM, Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 said:

Howdy All

 

First off, I am going to say at the start that I disagree with the SASS Wire's new policy of allowing loading data to be posted. I have always felt that not allowing data to be posted was a good idea. The reason is it only takes one typo to post erroneous data, with potentially disastrous results. Yes, I know that other forums allow it, but I think the old policy of not allowing data to be posted was a good one, for that simple reason. And yes, I understand that it is the reader's responsibility to check posted data against published data to be sure it is accurate.

 

Anyway, now that posting loading data is allowed, I would ask that those  who post data make sure it is correct. Proof read what you wrote before you hit the Submit Button. Make sure it is correct. And be sure you state not only the powder name and charge in grains, but also make sure you define exactly what weight bullet you are using. X.X grains of Whiz Bang under a 200 grain bullet may be perfectly safe, but the same charge of Whiz Bang under a 250 grain bullet may lead to disaster.

 

To those who are reading these postings, be sure you double check the information against published data to make sure it is safe. I have already seen a couple of loads that I know were unsafe, as well as at least one post with no reference to bullet weight, although the poster claimed it was good for three different calibers.

 

Caveat Lector.

Thank you for your constructive, well thought out post Driftwood.  Although I'm not personally concerned about loading data being posted on the Wire I can understand why you feel the way you do.

 

I hope that responses to your post will be respectful and meaningful.  I think that's the least we owe any fellow cowboy, particularly one who has been unfailingly polite to others and always contributed in a positive way as you have always done.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Howdy All ;

As someone that does Ballistic Testing and Gunsmithing to pay for my addiction called CAS ...

I have been somewhat surprised by the level of knowledge on this wire and not always in a positive way ...

Some years back , folks were promoting "Clays loads" with "grits as filler ... While these loads were with-in  allowable pressure levels when freshly loaded, as tested by myself .... They increased in pressure to well over safe  levels as they aged to the point where pressures exceeded 47,000 PSI. ...

Thankfully when I pointed out these facts, most folks chose to stop playing with this way of loading ..... But not all ...

 

Jabez Cowboy

Link to post
Share on other sites

This risk-averse female thinks a little caution when playing with propellants, explosives and molten lead is wise.  My dear pard Driftwood has been a wealth of information not just for the Wire in general, but to me personally over the years.  His advice and directions often came with warnings about things to be careful with and to pay attention to - much appreciated as I was still pretty low on the learning curve!  He is a kind and generous man and I was grateful for his concern for my safety and I'm sure his cautionary post is in a spirit of concern for us, and should be taken that way. 

I had a powerful lesson as a spotter when the shooters gun sent miscellaneous hunks of what had been a cylinder before the big bang flying amongst the posse.  Nobody was hurt but it left us all a little shaken and I will check, double check, verify, chrony and range test  any new load I develop before I expose my posse to it. 

  

Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎10‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 4:34 AM, Tex Jones, SASS 2263 said:

i'm all for verifying data before posting, but that has nothing to do with setting the powder scale incorrectly.

Based on this, posting load data on a forum can be costly to the forum owners unless the real problem is found. Imagine, someone used data posted on your forum and their gun blew up in their face, so they are suing the forum owners. The problem may or may not be found in the court case.

41 minutes ago, Texas jack Black SASS#9362 said:

This to shall end.:ph34r:

Huh?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Oooh! It's time for all the negative Nellies to line up and sink this one. First, somebody complains and says it's unsafe. Second, all their buddies attest to the wisdom of the chief complainant.  Third, we make logical counterpoints  about being responsible adults and the value of the information. Fourth, it's all  ignored and we can't walk and chew bubble gum any more.

 

How about if you don't like it you just don't comment or contribute? You're really not helping with your wisdom. It's a good thing that gets people sharing ideas and keeps people active on the forum. People here have enough accountability to ask questions if they don't know something. Thanks in advance for your forward thinking lassez-faire stance going forward on this matter. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.