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Shooting Bull

How can you shoot this?

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15 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Put atleast 3 rounds on all targets.

 

 

 

Then I could shoot four on either the left or right target which would be a sweep with four anywhere.  You've got to require the last shot to the on the middle target.  I think the intent (who knows) was to require some swinging of the rifle barrel. When written clear enough that everyone understands it the same way, most will shoot three times on one outside target, then three on the other outside target, then four in the middle. . .but not everyone. Santa Fe River Stan said he'd sweep three on each target, then return to the middle for the last shot. Depending on the shooter, it might be faster. 

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What issue?  Since you MUST first shoot a triple tap in order to shoot a quadruple tap, and the previously repeated, ad nauseum, instructions do NOT preclude a quad tap, the specificity of "...in any order" isn't... and as we no longer attempt to 'read into' either a shooter's or writer's intent, just what's actually written, AND, as you so readily pointed out, the rule of unintended consequences is real and alive... the fact that a few folks can't wrap their head around a open-ended stage instruction, and therefore try to cite rules that don't exist, doesn't constitute a need for a rule change...

 

Dang it... you took my chance to be the 1st post on two pages... :P

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21 minutes ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

“Triple tap targets in any order, put tenth shot on center target.”

 

Three instructions:

1 - triple tap targets

2.  in any order

3. put last shot on center target

 

It did NOT say no quad taps.

 

We know what a triple tap is and it is required for the first 9 rounds.  And the center targets is required to have bit hit 4 times.

So the question is, what does any order mean?

 

Some are saying that triple-tap overrides the "any order" instruction, but that is not what was written. 

And some have added that you cannot quad tap although that is NOT in the instructions. 

 

So they say that one instruction invalidates the second and further add an instruction that was not in the original stage instructions.

 

My real concern about the issue is what will be added to the manual if they want to invalidate what is actually written.  How many pages and how much restriction in stage writing and how many added pages would result.

 

 

 

I am reminded back in 20001 when several bullies feared that if they made really difficult targets that people would merely shoot the wrong targets to gain an advantage.  And they would only be given a P.  They feared that people would not give the Spirit of the Game penalty so then wanted to lock people into giving much more severe penalties.  Unfortunately some very influential TG's and others were caught up in this idea.

 

Prior to 2001,  a miss was defined as not hitting a target. Hitting the wrong target was a P - and you could only get 1 P. So if you had a real bad miss that accidentally hit the wrong target, it was not a miss but a P.  No big deal, we all knew that.

 

If you shot the wrong target you got a P.  And if it was an obvious attempt to gain an advantage an added Spirit of the Game. 

 

But the bullies were upset that people would not give the Spirit of the Game penalty and also wanted to penalize stronger.  So, they made it a P and added a different definition of a miss - not just missing a target, but also hitting the wrong target. So if the gun sequence was 10 rounds the penalty would be 60 seconds (10 misses + P) So double the SOG penalty.

 

When it was presented, I was voted against it and explained why.  And warned that it would result in  overly severe penalties and great confusion.  As in this case, they responded by dodged the issue raised and belittled anyone who thought the existing rules were adequate, although they had worked for about 20 years.

 

The impact was when I was shooting at one excellent match, I failed to do an adequate walk through - my fault.  For the rifle targets, you had to move around  wall to see all three targets.  The distances were not much further than the pistol targets and they were all the same color, size and shape, so I moved and triple-tapped the last three targets (that I saw).  I was shocked when they said I had a P.

 

Unfortunately, I did not see the last target so I hit a pistol target 3 times.  Thus a penalty of 25 seconds.  The posse discussed it and many did not want to give the full 25 seconds, but some (rightly) insisted. 

 

After the match, we found that this had happened to several others, but I was the only one to get the full penalty because people did not agree with the new rules.

 

SASS quickly realized that the change was a mistake.  To "correct it" they dropped the Procedure penalty.  They left the revised definition of a miss and further expanded it.  

Since the concept of misses and procedures were now merged where they had previously been separate, they had to add a flow chart and further instructions.  At that point the manual was too large for the old "pocket book" format. 

 

And we have continued to see a lot of confusion ever since.

 

So depending on how we "fix" this "issue" we could greatly impact how stages are written and greatly complicate the process.  And we could add several more pages to the manual and further complicate everything.

 

So, for those who believe this is an issue, how would you change the rules to fit your ideas?

I don't expect to see any changes in the rules for something that can be covered to the satisfaction of all via stage instructions. We are as likely to have sweeps identified by names. Is it a Progressive Sweep or is it a Lawrence Welk Sweep? This reminds me more of the discussion about the use of the word "repeat" in stage instructions. Does it mean repeat sequence or does it mean repeat instructions? The simple solution is to never use the word "repeat" without following it with "sequence" or "instructions." It ends the argument. 

 

One thing that this thread demonstrates to me is people perceive it the way they perceive it and no amount of discussion will change their mind. If we were not aware of this before, we are now. The solution is to write the instructions so that no doubt is left in the mind of ANYONE reading it. Minus this, there WILL be differences in how it is handled from one posse to another. 

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19 minutes ago, Buck D. Law, SASS #62183 said:

Then I could shoot four on either the left or right target which would be a sweep with four anywhere.  You've got to require the last shot to the on the middle target.  I think the intent (who knows) was to require some swinging of the rifle barrel. When written clear enough that everyone understands it the same way, most will shoot three times on one outside target, then three on the other outside target, then four in the middle. . .but not everyone. Santa Fe River Stan said he'd sweep three on each target, then return to the middle for the last shot. Depending on the shooter, it might be faster. 

That aint what you asked though.

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1 hour ago, Buck D. Law, SASS #62183 said:

 

 

How about some examples of how the stage could be written that clearly allows the last four rounds to go on the center target? Be sure to leave it open so that it is not required to end with four on the center target.  Randy St. Eagle has done it. I’ll go next.

 

You said leave it open so the llast 4 did not have to be on the center target.

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4 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

You said leave it open so the llast 4 did not have to be on the center target.

I meant to leave the requirement (like the original) of three on each target, but with the last round being on the center target. LOL

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TN,

I am curious as to one thing.....

when is your computer gonna run out of ink?

 

;):lol:

 

..........Widder

 

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23 minutes ago, Griff said:

What issue?  Since you MUST first shoot a triple tap in order to shoot a quadruple tap, and the previously repeated, ad nauseum, instructions do NOT preclude a quad tap, the specificity of "...in any order" isn't... and as we no longer attempt to 'read into' either a shooter's or writer's intent, just what's actually written, AND, as you so readily pointed out, the rule of unintended consequences is real and alive... the fact that a few folks can't wrap their head around a open-ended stage instruction, and therefore try to cite rules that don't exist, doesn't constitute a need for a rule change...

 

Dang it... you took my chance to be the 1st post on two pages... :P

Thats the discussion. We say it does preclude the quad tap, and it aint open ended just because it says any order. "Any order" dont give you a free for all. We think its others that cant wrap their head around that..

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7 minutes ago, Buck D. Law, SASS #62183 said:

I meant to leave the requirement (like the original) of three on each target, but with the last round being on the center target. LOL

default_laugh.png.5b9fd51a223ab715ae11451c66e24ca1.png

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I feel like a person lost in the wilderness and I just found the heel end of my own tracks because I went in a big circle.  Aye yi yi!!!!!

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1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

Thats the discussion. We say it does preclude the quad tap, and it aint open ended just because it says any order. "Any order" dont give you a free for all. We think its others that cant wrap their head around that..

It's like that often seen stage caveat on sweeps that stipulates... "no double taps", precluding two sweeps in opposite directions.  In this case, without a "no quad taps" caveat, the "...in any order" IS open-ended... in as far as the order the shooter wishes to shoot the triple taps in.

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1 hour ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

TN,

I am curious as to one thing.....

when is your computer gonna run out of ink?

 

;):lol:

 

..........Widder

 

I got it pluggin in and an ink IV hooked up to it.

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Just now, Tennessee williams said:

I got it pluggin in and an ink IV hooked up to it.

A time-honored method of building a post count... ;)

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At the end of the year I'm gonna get some kind of award for this thread, right? B)

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1 hour ago, Griff said:

It's like that often seen stage caveat on sweeps that stipulates... "no double taps", precluding two sweeps in opposite directions.  In this case, without a "no quad taps" caveat, the "...in any order" IS open-ended... in as far as the order the shooter wishes to shoot the triple taps in.

I like to look at it this way. Shots are cumulative(because 1 plus 1 is 2 plus 1 is 3 plus 1 is 4) and you can't erase an earned P no matter how you shoot the rest of the stage. So

Instructions say no double taps=

1 hit good

2 hits P

3 hits still a P cause you cant erase a P.

Instructions say triple tap=

1 hit good. On your way

2 hits good. Still on your way

3 hits good. You nailed it!

4 hits no good. P. You shouldve stopped.

 

Can anybody refute this?

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2 hours ago, Griff said:

It's like that often seen stage caveat on sweeps that stipulates... "no double taps", precluding two sweeps in opposite directions.  In this case, without a "no quad taps" caveat, the "...in any order" IS open-ended... in as far as the order the shooter wishes to shoot the triple taps in.

By the way, this is impossible to shoot. "No double taps, precluding two sweeps in opposite directions". If youre doung 2 in opposite directions, you're gonna have to double tap if you start on the end. What you meant to say is no double taps stipulated when it just says 2 sweeps.

Dont have to say no double taps if you say sweep it twice from the same direction unless youre not talking 5 target sweeps.

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23 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

At the end of the year I'm gonna get some kind of award for this thread, right? B)

Yep...

chargers_gatorade_shower.jpg

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9 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

I like to look at it this way. Shots are cumulative(because 1 plus 1 is 2 plus 1 is 3 plus 1 is 4) and you can't erase an earned P no matter how you shoot the rest of the stage. So

Instructions say no double taps=

1 hit good

2 hits P

3 hits still a P cause you cant erase a P.

Instructions say triple tap=

1 hit good. On your way

2 hits good. Still on your way

3 hits good. You nailed it!

4 hits no good. P. You shouldve stopped.

 

Can anybody refute this?

You can look at it how you like, but the fact is you have to shoot a triple tap before that final shot.  Fait compli, no?  when you take that tenth shot, you, in essence have shot a quad tap... but... that doesn't erase the fact you had already completed the triple.  Since the instructions didn't preclude the shooter from shooting the scenario with the final triple becoming a quad, that is an immaterial fact.

 

From an earlier comment you made you alluded to the fact that a shooter using a 1-3-2 sequence would get a "P" before he even fired their 10th shot.  In an "Alice in Wonderland" world... maybe.  What if the shooter misses target 2 with any of the shots at it?

 

Might I suggest taking the RO I & II classes?

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46 minutes ago, Griff said:

You can look at it how you like, but the fact is you have to shoot a triple tap before that final shot. 

Yes

46 minutes ago, Griff said:

Fait compli, no?  when you take that tenth shot, you, in essence have shot a quad tap... but... that doesn't erase the fact you had already completed the triple.  Since the instructions didn't preclude the shooter from shooting the scenario with the final triple becoming a quad, that is an immaterial fact.

Fait compli? I think you're wrong about that too. What you mean is Fait accompli. And no, it has not already been decided, since we're still discussing it. 

Yes, I and others believe it DOES mean you did not shoot a triple tap because 4 shots is a quad tap. Hence, the instructions did preclude a quad tap. 

Trying to belittle someone using the same argument doesn't make you look smart by the way.

46 minutes ago, Griff said:

 

From an earlier comment you made you alluded to the fact that a shooter using a 1-3-2 sequence would get a "P" before he even fired their 10th shot.  In an "Alice in Wonderland" world... maybe.  What if the shooter misses target 2 with any of the shots at it?

 

Might I suggest taking the RO I & II classes?

How about pulling a quote out instead of some weird "alluded to" comment.

 

Might I suggest a math class or 4.

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Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362

I actually thought winter was finally over.:D

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On 9/15/2018 at 9:28 PM, Tennessee williams said:

...To answer your question, it doesn't matter where you put the 10th round because you peed all over everything when you shot it 111,333,222!!!!!

 

Unless you were being literal.

1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

Yes

Fait compli? I think you're wrong about that too. What you mean is Fait accompli. And no, it has not already been decided, since we're still discussing it. 

Yes, I and others believe it DOES mean you did not shoot a triple tap because 4 shots is a quad tap. Hence, the instructions did preclude a quad tap. 

Trying to belittle someone using the same argument doesn't make you look smart by the way.

How about pulling a quote out instead of some weird "alluded to" comment.

 

Might I suggest a math class or 4.

Might need French... but my math is fine.    I don't believe I've belittled anyone... yet, at least intentionally.  Yes, the folks at that match decided they could shoot the stage in said fashion.  

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4 hours ago, Shooting Bull said:

At the end of the year I'm gonna get some kind of award for this thread, right? B)

 

BULL,

Normally, an award for this Thread is given upon completion of the thread.

 

As of right now, it won't be finished by the end of the year and therefore, your award will be 

given in 2019..... :lol::lol:

 

..........Widder

 

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bump

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42 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

BULL,

Normally, an award for this Thread is given upon completion of the thread.

 

As of right now, it won't be finished by the end of the year and therefore, your award will be 

given in 2019..... :lol::lol:

 

..........Widder

 

 

If this baby goes that long I really do want a Cadillac   :lol:

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53 minutes ago, Griff said:

Unless you were being literal.

Yes, I was being literal on that. It calls for a single tap on 2. So, if you put it on 1,P. Put it on 3, P. Put it on 2, P because then you didn't triple tap 2.

Quote

Might need French... but my math is fine.    I don't believe I've belittled anyone... yet, at least intentionally. 

Thats fine...yet

Quote

Yes, the folks at that match decided they could shoot the stage in said fashion.  

That's fine, all well and good. Thats how its supposed to work. But that aint what we are debating. How come its easier to talk to everybody else? Me and Buck are about as far as we can be apart on this but we're civil. If he called me up and needed something I'd be on it like a duck on a junebug.

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4 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

I like to look at it this way. Shots are cumulative(because 1 plus 1 is 2 plus 1 is 3 plus 1 is 4) and you can't erase an earned P no matter how you shoot the rest of the stage. So

Instructions say no double taps=

1 hit good

2 hits P

3 hits still a P cause you cant erase a P.

Instructions say triple tap=

1 hit good. On your way

2 hits good. Still on your way

3 hits good. You nailed it!

4 hits no good. P. You shouldve stopped.

 

Can anybody refute this?

Already answered - several times.

 

You won't actually answer questions, but merely repeat the same thing over and over.  You have derided others who have honestly tried to dialog with you.

 

You have become a bully...  I did not expect that from you and I'm saddened by it.

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On 9/15/2018 at 9:28 PM, Tennessee williams said:

...To answer your question, it doesn't matter where you put the 10th round because you peed all over everything when you shot it 111,333,222!!!!!

2 hours ago, Griff said:

Unless you were being literal.

1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

Yes, I was being literal on that. It calls for a single tap on 2. So, if you put it on 1,P. Put it on 3, P. Put it on 2, P because then you didn't triple tap 2.

Thats fine...yet

That's fine, all well and good. Thats how its supposed to work. But that aint what we are debating. How come its easier to talk to everybody else? Me and Buck are about as far as we can be apart on this but we're civil. If he called me up and needed something I'd be on it like a duck on a junebug.

I'm honestly trying to be civil... I haven't had to edit any of my posts... I've said what I've thought, and will continue to do so.  Some folks call that blunt... I call it truthful.

 

 

And quite frankly, however the words on high come down... it really doesn't matter... because, I believe the WB & ROC dove down the rabbit hole long, long ago... 

 

Here's my simplified logic as to why I don't believe the 4 shots on target 2 matter (given these simple stage instructions in the OP):

 

Shooter engages target one 3 times - check,

then engages target three 3 times - check,

then engages target two 3 times - check, and

finally engages target two 1 time; check.  

 

What if:    shooter misses all 10 shots, are there any penalties besides 10 misses?  Has not the shooter fulfilled the stage instructions?  And fully complied with same?  Or only misses one out of all three triples?

 

Whereas SASS used to infer intent on the part of shooter, we've done away with that notion, as none of us can crawl inside a shooter's head and KNOW what they were intending to do.  It would be the same if the shooter hit the first nine shots, then missed the 10th... We can't know that he missed on purpose, or maybe was mistakenly aiming at target one... or three... we just give him his miss.  Now, if he'd hit target one or three, we'd give him his "P"... for the stage instructions called for the 10th shot to be on target two.  

 

Or if the shooter missed one of the first 3 shots at target two... he didn't triple tap them... so even if he hits the 10th shot on target two, he doesn't get a "P" from you, does he?  

 

Or, to simplify this notion further, let's imagine 10 targets strung across the stage bay... instructions read:  "sweep targets L to R."  Shooter A shoots targets 1 - 4 in order, and on his 5th shot misses, and proceeds to hit target 6 - 10.  Score:  time plus 5 seconds for one miss.  Now... Shooter B comes to the line, and hits targets 1 - 4 in order, and his 5th shot hits target 4... and proceeds to hit targets 5 - 9,  Doesn't shoot at target 10, as he's run out of ammo.  Penalties?   Time + 10 seconds for a procedural for hitting targets out of order.  No misses... although he didn't hit target 10, he did hit all ten of his shots on the correct type target.  For all we know is he "may" have been aiming at the 'correct' target, but been just that lousy of a shot... (not that any of us would call him on it... I hope)!

 

Now, whatever you do, don't change your mind.  It'd be really silly if that happened and the ROC ruled that regardless of the open-endedness of the stage instructions, four hits on a target negates the previous three being a triple tap... and both of us are then wrong!  ;)  Personally, I don't care... I rarely care what the stage instructions are... if I have a question, I ask... and sometimes, even getting the explanation, doesn't clear it up!  I can earn a "P" with the best of 'em!

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I thought I had responded to this thread, but I don't see the little star in front of it.  We had one like this at my club.  I shot it first and shot it 111, 222, 333, 2.  I thought about quad tapping #2, but it didn't look allowable to me because it called only for triple taps.  I thought it had been clarified on the wire that instructions saying "x tap" automatically made it a P to put anymore than x rounds in a row on the target regardless of whether the instructions specified that.  But I cannot find that thread now. 

 

After I shot I took the spotters stick and called a P on the first shooter for shooting it 111, 333, 2222.  Turns out most of the shooters after me shot it like that instead of how I shot it.  I cannot recall if the shooter got the P or if we decided either way was fine. 

 

Very interested to hear the ruling from the ROC.  If I see the stage again, I'm shooting it 2, 111, 333, 222

 

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15 hours ago, Shooting Bull said:

At the end of the year I'm gonna get some kind of award for this thread, right? B)

 

This is usually what I get..........86DEA582-3C2A-4039-82D9-69F1EA52E1EA.jpeg.1996222c25e27b3a9ea4a2731b68de7b.jpeg

 

 You can borrow one of mine till PWB deems you worthy  :D

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17 hours ago, Shooting Bull said:

At the end of the year I'm gonna get some kind of award for this thread, right? B)

Yup-They'll use a new rope..........:lol:

OLG

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Y'know, I think I can settle this...

 

First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin, then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. 
Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three.
Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. 
Five is right out. 
Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it.

 

Or, to put it another way...

 

Stop it, stop it, stop it!   You're being silly.   Move along.  MOVE ALONG!

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8 hours ago, Griff said:

I'm honestly trying to be civil... I haven't had to edit any of my posts... I've said what I've thought, and will continue to do so.  Some folks call that blunt... I call it truthful.

 

 

And quite frankly, however the words on high come down... it really doesn't matter... because, I believe the WB & ROC dove down the rabbit hole long, long ago... 

 

Here's my simplified logic as to why I don't believe the 4 shots on target 2 matter (given these simple stage instructions in the OP):

 

Shooter engages target one 3 times - check,

then engages target three 3 times - check,

then engages target two 3 times - check, and

finally engages target two 1 time; check.  

 

What if:    shooter misses all 10 shots, are there any penalties besides 10 misses?  Has not the shooter fulfilled the stage instructions?  And fully complied with same?  Or only misses one out of all three triples?

 

Whereas SASS used to infer intent on the part of shooter, we've done away with that notion, as none of us can crawl inside a shooter's head and KNOW what they were intending to do.  It would be the same if the shooter hit the first nine shots, then missed the 10th... We can't know that he missed on purpose, or maybe was mistakenly aiming at target one... or three... we just give him his miss.  Now, if he'd hit target one or three, we'd give him his "P"... for the stage instructions called for the 10th shot to be on target two.  

 

Or if the shooter missed one of the first 3 shots at target two... he didn't triple tap them... so even if he hits the 10th shot on target two, he doesn't get a "P" from you, does he?  

 

Or, to simplify this notion further, let's imagine 10 targets strung across the stage bay... instructions read:  "sweep targets L to R."  Shooter A shoots targets 1 - 4 in order, and on his 5th shot misses, and proceeds to hit target 6 - 10.  Score:  time plus 5 seconds for one miss.  Now... Shooter B comes to the line, and hits targets 1 - 4 in order, and his 5th shot hits target 4... and proceeds to hit targets 5 - 9,  Doesn't shoot at target 10, as he's run out of ammo.  Penalties?   Time + 10 seconds for a procedural for hitting targets out of order.  No misses... although he didn't hit target 10, he did hit all ten of his shots on the correct type target.  For all we know is he "may" have been aiming at the 'correct' target, but been just that lousy of a shot... (not that any of us would call him on it... I hope)!

 

Now, whatever you do, don't change your mind.  It'd be really silly if that happened and the ROC ruled that regardless of the open-endedness of the stage instructions, four hits on a target negates the previous three being a triple tap... and both of us are then wrong!  ;)  Personally, I don't care... I rarely care what the stage instructions are... if I have a question, I ask... and sometimes, even getting the explanation, doesn't clear it up!  I can earn a "P" with the best of 'em!

That was a good civil reply. I think the misunderstanding on this is, I was assuming a "hit" wherever the shooter put the 10th round after hitting the first 3 triple taps in the order of 111,333,222. Because if he puts it on other than target 2 he disobeyed stage instructions by not doing so. If he puts it on 2, he has then quad tapped target 2.

   Some people say since there is a comma it makes it 2 separate sets of instructions. I say they are misconstruing what a comma is and over thinking it. A comma separates different things in a sentence, it doesn't replace them and it does not establish order. When the smoke clears, all things have to be accomplished. Triple tap all targets, and single tap the 2nd one. Just because there is a comma in there does not mean it creates a line between your triple and single taps, you have to look at it as a whole. 

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8 hours ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

Very interested to hear the ruling from the ROC.  If I see the stage again, I'm shooting it 2, 111, 333, 222

I not sure, but didn't the stage call for triple taps before the single round?   :P

42 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

Y'know, I think I can settle this...

 

First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin, then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. 
Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three.
Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. 
Five is right out. 
Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it.

 

Or, to put it another way...

 

Stop it, stop it, stop it!   You're being silly.   Move along.  MOVE ALONG!

Yep I'd have complied...  Aim at target 1, fired 1, 2, 3; aimed at target 3, fired 1, 2 3,; aimed at target 2, fired 1, 2, 3, and finally fired attarget 2, 1.  Se never counted over 3. :D

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11 hours ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

Already answered - several times.

 

You won't actually answer questions, but merely repeat the same thing over and over.  You have derided others who have honestly tried to dialog with you.

 

You have become a bully...  I did not expect that from you and I'm saddened by it.

Marauder, I'm sorry. I forgot you were there.

I'm not going to waste my time on answering hypothetical what ifs from you.

The proof is in the pudding about me deriding people as you say. Look back at the posts. Theyre all there. Only snide remarks that came from me was in reply to someone doing so to me.

 

Are you trying to win an oscar on the sass wire or something by calling me a bully? Reminds me of some people on cnn when they cant seem to find a fact about someone. They start calling names.

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