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Shooting Bull

How can you shoot this?

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8 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

That was a good civil reply. I think the misunderstanding on this is, I was assuming a "hit" wherever the shooter put the 10th round after hitting the first 3 triple taps in the order of 111,333,222. Because if he puts it on other than target 2 he disobeyed stage instructions by not doing so. If he puts it on 2, he has then quad tapped target 2.

   Some people say since there is a comma it makes it 2 separate sets of instructions. I say they are misconstruing what a comma is and over thinking it. A comma separates different things in a sentence, it doesn't replace them and it does not establish order. When the smoke clears, all things have to be accomplished. Triple tap all targets, and single tap the 2nd one. Just because there is a comma in there does not mean it creates a line between your triple and single taps, you have to look at it as a whole. 

No, it's not a separate sentence, but it s a list of two separate things to accomplish the stage.  Likewise if the stage instructions had read, "...in any order put one round one center and triple tap each of the 3 targets.  Again no order to whether the solo round is to be fired 1st or last, but given tthe context of the stage, it must be either 1st or last.  It doubles the permutations of how the stage, but doesn't relieve us of our conundrum/

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3 minutes ago, Griff said:

No, it's not a separate sentence, but it s a list of two separate things to accomplish the stage.  Likewise if the stage instructions had read, "...in any order put one round one center and triple tap each of the 3 targets.  Again no order to whether the solo round is to be fired 1st or last, but given tthe context of the stage, it must be either 1st or last.  It doubles the permutations of how the stage, but doesn't relieve us of our conundrum/

I agree with you its 2 separate things to accomplish the stage. Where we differ, is I say you have to look at it after the smoke has cleared to see what was shot. I see a quad tap on 2. You see a 3 plus one. Here is a way to look at my reasoning: 1 target 10 rounds..It would be written dump 10 rounds on the target. It would not be written do a double tap 5 times or 2 triple taps and 2 double taps. 

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2 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

I agree with you its 2 separate things to accomplish the stage. Where we differ, is I say you have to look at it after the smoke has cleared to see what was shot. I see a quad tap on 2. You see a 3 plus one. Here is a way to look at my reasoning: 1 target 10 rounds..It would be written dump 10 rounds on the target. It would not be written do a double tap 5 times or 2 triple taps and 2 double taps. 

But it could be shot:  quick 5 shots... pause, quick five shots... etc.  Yea, I know "smart azz". :rolleyes:  Seriuosly, prior to the 4th shot, has the target been triple tapped, ending that part of the list?

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12 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

 Here is a way to look at my reasoning: 1 target 10 rounds..It would be written dump 10 rounds on the target. It would not be written do a double tap 5 times or 2 triple taps and 2 double taps. 

 

No, you wouldn’t normally write it that way. But you could and it wouldn’t be wrong.

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1 hour ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

No, you wouldn’t normally write it that way. But you could and it wouldn’t be wrong.

I would argue that it's not clear that it could be... Multi-taps need to be defined.

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13 minutes ago, Griff said:

But it could be shot:  quick 5 shots... pause, quick five shots... etc.  Yea, I know "smart azz". :rolleyes:  Seriuosly, prior to the 4th shot, has the target been triple tapped, ending that part of the list?

The target has been triple tapped prior to the 4th shot hitting it; however, when the 4th shot hits the target, the triple tap is not defined. Its a quad tap now. There has to be a defined separation in order to have a separate triple tap and single tap i.e. hitting another target or changing guns, etc. Someone who has no idea what the stage instructions are should be able to tell what sequence you shot it in. If they were watching, they'd say you triple tapped each outside target and quad tapped the center because there is no separation between 3 and 4 on the last target.

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Peanuts, Popcorn, Cracker Jacks! Get you ice cold Dr. Pepper, here! :rolleyes:

 

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21 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

The target has been triple tapped prior to the 4th shot hitting it; however, when the 4th shot hits the target, the triple tap is not defined. Its a quad tap now. There has to be a defined separation in order to have a separate triple tap and single tap i.e. hitting another target or changing guns, etc. Someone who has no idea what the stage instructions are should be able to tell what sequence you shot it in. If they were watching, they'd say you triple tapped each outside target and quad tapped the center because there is no separation between 3 and 4 on the last target.

How else are the sportscasters going to be able to cover our events?default_laugh.png.a1197aa637379213d5fa4ccda4d4c0fe.png

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8 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

The target has been triple tapped prior to the 4th shot hitting it; 

Good, the 1st step to full agreement.

8 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

...however, when the 4th shot hits the target, the triple tap is not defined. Its a quad tap now. There has to be a defined separation in order to have a separate triple tap and single tap i.e. hitting another target or changing guns, etc. Someone who has no idea what the stage instructions are should be able to tell what sequence you shot it in. If they were watching, they'd say you triple tapped each outside target and quad tapped the center because there is no separation between 3 and 4 on the last target.

Immaterial info.  Eyewitness accounts are horribly inaccurate.  Why I hate to spot.  Shooters so fast you don't KNOW if they've fired 3, 4, or 5 times, spotters calling "P"s  because they couldn't count the distinct shots.  I've seen misses called because spotters only saw one lead smear on freshly painted  multi-tap targets.   Spotting is a tough job, a necessity in our game.   The real question is:  do the stage instructions provide you with any guidance that you can not quad tap that center target.  We've already agreed that you have triple tapped.

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14 minutes ago, Griff said:

Good, the 1st step to full agreement.

Immaterial info.  Eyewitness accounts are horribly inaccurate.  Why I hate to spot.  Shooters so fast you don't KNOW if they've fired 3, 4, or 5 times, spotters calling "P"s  because they couldn't count the distinct shots.  I've seen misses called because spotters only saw one lead smear on freshly painted  multi-tap targets.   Spotting is a tough job, a necessity in our game.   The real question is:  do the stage instructions provide you with any guidance that you can not quad tap that center target.  We've already agreed that you have triple tapped.

I agreed that you have triple tapped until you hit it again. Then I say you have quad tapped. 

I also agree that eyewitness accounts of a fast shootrr are a lot of times inaccurate, but that was a moot point and the only "immaterial info". My main part of that paragraph was I think there should have to be a defined separation to have a triple tap and a single tap. Otherwise it is a quad tap. People say wrongly so that the stage writer didn't say no quad taps. They didn't disqualify a lot of things, so that argument to me is irrelevant.

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58 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

The target has been triple tapped prior to the 4th shot hitting it; however, when the 4th shot hits the target, the triple tap is not defined. Its a quad tap now. There has to be a defined separation in order to have a separate triple tap and single tap i.e. hitting another target or changing guns, etc. Someone who has no idea what the stage instructions are should be able to tell what sequence you shot it in. If they were watching, they'd say you triple tapped each outside target and quad tapped the center because there is no separation between 3 and 4 on the last target.

 

Why?  You're trying to support your argument by creating standards that don't exist.

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2 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

I agreed that you have triple tapped until you hit it again. Then I say you have quad tapped. 

 

 

Annnnnnnd once again we come back to this, the basis of our disagreement.  You contend that the instant the 4th consecutive shot hits that center target the triple tap is erased. I contend that the instant the 3rd shot hits that center target the triple tap requirement of the stage instructions has been met and can't be erased.

 

Is the ROC EVER going to give us some guidance??? :wacko:

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15 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

Is the ROC EVER going to give us some guidance??? :wacko:

The highly paid nature of their task should mean they make careful, full, complete and considered assessments of all factors before they throw their darts at the wall.  A process that's not to be hurried.

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Just now, Griff said:

The highly paid nature of their task should mean they make careful, full, complete and considered assessments of all factors before they throw their darts at the wall.  A process that's not to be hurried.

 

Exactly.   

 

There is a possibility that they can have a consensus, but for now, it may not be unanimous.

 

If I were in their shoes,  I would be a little reluctant to get involved in this because each shooting venue

can interject their own interpretation of this type stage scenario.

 

And the ROC may decide to support each venues choice(s).

 

Personally, as I've stated, I interpret it as a Quad tap..... period.

BUT, I can also see and agree where the stage writer can word such a scenario to allow the 3+1 actions.

 

..........Widder

 

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32 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

 

Annnnnnnd once again we come back to this, the basis of our disagreement.  You contend that the instant the 4th consecutive shot hits that center target the triple tap is erased. I contend that the instant the 3rd shot hits that center target the triple tap requirement of the stage instructions has been met and can't be erased.

I say you can get a P until you go to the unloading table.

32 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

Is the ROC EVER going to give us some guidance??? :wacko:

 

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2 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

Is the ROC EVER going to give us some guidance??? :wacko:

 

I'm betting NO.....this particular issue is based upon interpretation of the written English language.....my least favorite subject.....not the "rules" of the game. IMO this clarification is a MATCH level clarification.

 

This boils down to 2 camps

 

Camp 1 - The rifle instructions are seen as whole. In this view triple tapping the center target and then putting the 10th round on the center target nullifies the triple tap because it is now a quad tap which there is NO ARGUMENT with...putting 4 shots in a row on a target is a Quad Tap and the instructions only say to Triple Tap.

 

Camp 2 - The rifle instructions are seen as two part. In this view once the triple taps are completed in any order the first part is fulfilled and no longer relevant leaving open the option to place the 10th round on the center target even if you just triple tapped the center target. The words "any order" play into this and so does the use of the comma to separate the instructions.

 

Both camps are correct based on THEIR interpretation of the written instructions. I'm pretty sure that no one in Camp 2 would support an argument of "engage the two targets with 10 rounds no triple taps. it says no triple taps so quad tapped it". We established a long time ago you couldn't do that. I'm also pretty sure that if the instructions said "THEN put the 10th round on the middle target" no one in Camp 1 would say 2,2,2,  2 is wrong because it clearly separates the two parts of the instructions.

 

One of the hardest things for some people to do is take the instructions "AS WRITTEN". Just as we can't judge the shooters intention when engaging a target, we can't ASSUME the stage writers intentions to try and fill in the blanks. In this thread the words "SINGLE TAP" have been used as part of the stage instructions and while that may be what's implied that is not what is written. The written word is all we have to go upon. Shooters are not free to ADD words to the instructions. Stage writers should keep this in mind and try to make sure that what they write clearly conveys what they want to happen.

 

At a monthly match...no big deal go ask the writer and if they aren't their wing it. At bigger matches the stage writer is not always handy and the walk thru doesn't always cover all the bases. The best bet if you are not 100% confident about your choice of engagement is to ask the Posse Marshal and If you're still not sure ask the Range Master or Match Director. If  you are 100% sure that your interpretation is good even though it is different from what others are saying/doing, then shoot it. BUT, be prepared for the possibility that you as the shooter can be overruled by the Range Master or Match Director AFTER the fact earning you an unwanted 10 second time bonus to be added to your score.

 

While I don't always practice this approach in life...in our game......"Asking Permission is always better than Begging Forgiveness".

 

Stan - I never said I would not ASK before exercising my Camp 2 opinion.

 

 

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Out of curiousity - does anyone actually have an unaltered copy of the ORIGINAL stage instructions available?  If so, would they be willing to scan them and post the image here in this thread?

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Embarrassing 

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1 hour ago, Too Tall Bob said:

Out of curiousity - does anyone actually have an unaltered copy of the ORIGINAL stage instructions available?  If so, would they be willing to scan them and post the image here in this thread?

 

Even if I had it I wouldn't post it.  I'm still in the running for Thread of the Year. B)

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It might push you past your expectations. 

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No, I'm sorry.  I'm not prepared to pursue my line of inquiry any further as I think this is getting too silly.

 

Quite agree, quite agree!  Silly, silly, silly.  Right.  Get on with it.  Get on with it!

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3 hours ago, Shooting Bull said:

Is the ROC EVER going to give us some guidance??? :wacko:

 

 

I wouldn't get my hopes up. At least not until the entertainment value of this thread drops below some as yet undefined threshold or the popcorn runs out. :rolleyes:

 

BTW you have my vote for Thread of the year. ;)

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So, lets see if I have this particular stage scenario correct:

 

If I put 4 consecutive shots on the FIRST target,

3 consecutive shots on the THIRD target,

and finish with 3 consecutive shots on the SECOND target,

I have shot the stage correctly.

 

#1:  I have supplied a triple tap on target ONE.     Although I hit it 4 times, I still put a triple tap on it.

 

#2:  I also finished the stage by putting the 10th round on target TWO.   This was also a separate requirement

of the stage scenario.

 

I have accomplished the goal by being creative, which was allowed within the 'unwritten' stage instructions.

 

BULL, I'm beginning to enjoy this stage.   Thanks

 

..........Widder

 

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Quote

does anyone actually have an unaltered copy of the ORIGINAL stage instructions available?  

 

This is not the OPs event or stage instructions but we had basically the same scenario.

 

From the Battle Born Ranger's 2nd Annual Roop County Days held in Nevada in early September:

 

Stage 9:

Gun order and shooting position is shooter's choice. Rifle and shotgun are staged appropriately.

If with rifle, triple tap each target - any order. Then engage center target with tenth round.

If with pistols, engage the pistol targets using the same instructions as the rifle targets.

 

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Do we agree that there are two valid POV's here??

 

One sez that the two instructions are independent of each other and the other sez they are not.

 

If we can just agree to this than we can look at ways to avoid having a problem in the future.

 

Phantom

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I'm going to potentially kill the greatest thread in history AND my own stellar reputation with four little words: I agree with Phantom.

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1 hour ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

So, lets see if I have this particular stage scenario correct:

 

If I put 4 consecutive shots on the FIRST target,

3 consecutive shots on the THIRD target,

and finish with 3 consecutive shots on the SECOND target,

I have shot the stage correctly.

 

#1:  I have supplied a triple tap on target ONE.     Although I hit it 4 times, I still put a triple tap on it.

 

#2:  I also finished the stage by putting the 10th round on target TWO.   This was also a separate requirement

of the stage scenario.

 

I have accomplished the goal by being creative, which was allowed within the 'unwritten' stage instructions.

 

BULL, I'm beginning to enjoy this stage.   Thanks

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

Nope.  As per my side of the discussion the triple tap and 10th round are two separate requirements.  You have to perform the three triple taps and THEN put the 10th round on the center target. Two separate and distinct actions.  You didn't do that.  

 

(I'll give you high marks for creativity though. ;) )

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4 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

I'm going to potentially kill the greatest thread in history AND my own stellar reputation with four little words: I agree with Phantom.

That's dangerous... but, I do also, so, we're both in trouble.

 

Widder, your "shoot four shots at target one won't fly... as you have to complete the triple taps of the 3 targets before you "put your tenth round on the center target.

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Phantom, I'd suggest the stage writer either include the triple taps as a sweep, or include the caveat, "no quad taps".  

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2 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Do we agree that there are two valid POV's here??

 

One sez that the two instructions are independent of each other and the other sez they are not.

 

If we can just agree to this than we can look at ways to avoid having a problem in the future.

 

Phantom

That be right, but you and I know that if there is a walk thru at match for PM's,all would be settled quickly.   Hey, but maybe we said that back around page 2.  Hope to c u soon.

bb 

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On 9/8/2018 at 9:39 PM, Shooting Bull said:

Rifle and pistol had three targets each. Both had same instructions. “Triple tap targets in any order, put tenth shot on center target.”  Stage write was unavailable for clarification. Would you as the TO allow a triple tap on targets one and three then a triple tap +1 on the center? 

 

Howdy Bull and Griff.

 

I can see exactly what you both mean.   But, I don't see the word 'THEN' in the original thread that started this 

discussion.

 

I think my recent post using the method I listed would fit the requirements of those instructions.

BUT, I agree that once the word 'THEN' is interjected, my listed method would no longer be valid.

 

I also like Phantoms latest post.   And I like my definition because it now gives even greater creativity to

the shooter..... :D

 

Y'all have a good evening.    I think I'm gonna work on some 3D plans for a few new 97's..... :lol:

 

..........Widder

 

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4 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

So, lets see if I have this particular stage scenario correct:

 

If I put 4 consecutive shots on the FIRST target,

3 consecutive shots on the THIRD target,

and finish with 3 consecutive shots on the SECOND target,

I have shot the stage correctly.

 

#1:  I have supplied a triple tap on target ONE.     Although I hit it 4 times, I still put a triple tap on it.

 

#2:  I also finished the stage by putting the 10th round on target TWO.   This was also a separate requirement

of the stage scenario.

 

I have accomplished the goal by being creative, which was allowed within the 'unwritten' stage instructions.

 

BULL, I'm beginning to enjoy this stage.   Thanks

 

..........Widder

 

Obviously that would have to be a procedure.  You must do three triple-taps first.  So the 4th shot would result in a P since it was not part of the next triple-tap.

 

I think  we would all agree there.

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30 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

Howdy Bull and Griff.

 

I can see exactly what you both mean.   But, I don't see the word 'THEN' in the original thread that started this 

discussion.

 

I think my recent post using the method I listed would fit the requirements of those instructions.

BUT, I agree that once the word 'THEN' is interjected, my listed method would no longer be valid.

 

I also like Phantoms latest post.   And I like my definition because it now gives even greater creativity to

the shooter..... :D

 

Y'all have a good evening.    I think I'm gonna work on some 3D plans for a few new 97's..... :lol:

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

And that's exactly why we have the two different opinions Phantom mentioned.  I'll repeat an earlier post of mine.  I don't know if the word "THEN" was included in the stage instructions or a comma.  Either way I think the triple taps and 10th shot are two separate and distinct instructions.

 

You have a good evening too. :)

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3 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Do we agree that there are two valid POV's here??

 

One sez that the two instructions are independent of each other and the other sez they are not.

 

If we can just agree to this than we can look at ways to avoid having a problem in the future.

 

Phantom

 

And ask that lonely little question..:huh:

"May I?" or "Can I?" :rolleyes:

 

Rance ;)

Does that settle it?? :unsure: probably not.. :D

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3 hours ago, Griff said:

Phantom, I'd suggest the stage writer either include the triple taps as a sweep, or include the caveat, "no quad taps".  

Than you don't agree with my statement... Okay.

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